<p>Do you think selling things on a site like ebay or starting an online business, then growing and expanding it would be a good start? Could I also make some kind of nonprofit organization that benefits people in the community?</p>
<p>What I’ve always found humorous is how every race thinks they’ve been treated more poorly than others, as if a contest were ongoing. </p>
<p>With all due respect, I think a great deal of this victimization is exagerated and imagined. More importantly, I think it perpetuates a society obssessed by skin color. I’ve sat alone on trains, too. As an Asian, I’m not allowed to embrace racism for this result, so what should I blame? The only way for our world to get beyond race is for each of us to get beyond race. But that’s not what happens. People get mileage out of being the victim. Asians do this all of the time, too, so I am not picking on any one race. </p>
<p>I wish everyone had an equal chance of success, but they don’t. I welcome any program that tries to even the playing field. But the reason so many people resent programs like AA is that those who benefit tend to believe that they alone are victomes of bias. The truth of the matter is that Americans are more tolerant than any people I’ve encountered, and yet we continually hear people talk about their woes as if we were living in 1836. It gets old. The reality is that almost everyone can come up with examples of people judging and treating them harshly based on how they appear. Someday I hope we can move the discussion forward and stop focusing on actions taken 100 years ago.</p>
<p>I personally believe that America is the best country out of the ones I’ve been to when it comes to the racism issue, I agree with you there. I’ve never experienced any racism at all in America. In my post I did say " none of this happened in America, but still it’s relevant."Now, just because I have not experienced it here, I would not say that it does not exist because I simply do not have the same background as your average AA since I did not grow up here. If I was put in their position, then I probably would see it, but I am not; therefore, I cannot know what it’s like based on my personal experiences because they will be different from theirs.</p>
<p>However, racism is alive and well in most other places on earth and that’s not an exaggeration, I’ve lived through it. In a globalizing world, I feel it’s very relevant. You could lose a business client, fail to get an international posting, or get harassed in the country that you do end up in simply because of the color of your skin. If you ever get spat on and slapped by total strangers and still say that racism is exaggerated, be my guest. The reason I made the posts that I did was to show why I reacted the way I did to Rtgrove’s posts, not to make excuses one way or another. I do think that we, members of the black community, need to step up our game though. There is no reason that AA should be necessary in the next 30 years. We just need more people to succeed like Obama in order to provide role models for the young. AA goes a long way to developing a black middle and upper class. That is essential to the future success of AAs. Once that happens, then I think we’ll have made it and AA will be unnecessary. It’s only been a single generation since King (which is when racism against blacks was really tackled, not 100 years ago like you seem to insinuate), the systemic structural problems in black families will not disappear in a single generation. </p>
<p>“The only way for our world to get beyond race is for each of us to get beyond race.”</p>
<p>I agree, and I sure do hope it’ll happen. </p>
<p>“Someday I hope we can move the discussion forward and stop focusing on actions taken 100 years ago.”</p>
<p>Problem is, much of the rest of the world still has a 100 year old mindset with regards to race and unless we stamp it out there like we did here (by talking about it, not pretending it does not exist) it will remain.</p>
<p>Wait…so you have literally experienced no racism in the US but still believe that American society is fairly racist against blacks? So what evidence leads you to believe that blacks are any more discriminated against than Jews, Asians, or Arabs (who don’t receive affirmative action perks)? </p>
<p>Additionally, do you believe that wealthy Africans should receive a greater boost to their application than a poor white student? I live in a fairly affluent, white, conservative area. However, one of my friends here is a black student (extremely smart btw) who will be applying to colleges next year. She is a passionate liberal who bitterly detests affirmative action because she believes that wealthy blacks are just as well off academically as wealthy whites. She believes, like I believe, that we all have problems in our lives that we need to overcome. Yet, AA does make the fairly hasty assumption that all minorities are discriminated against because of race…well no not all minorities as Arabs and Asians don’t receive aid for some reason. We both think that, in affluent environments, we all should be held to the same academic standard.</p>
<p>What I’ve started to realize in the past few years, is that as you experience more things, meet more people, you begin to view the world differently. I realize that eighteen years old is very young, so we should just keep in mind that our perceptions of certain issues are bound to change as we explore new environments. Affirmative Action is a very complex issue like many others being discussed today. I don’t think there is anything wrong with having opinions on the issue, but it’s best to keep an open mind. You may learn things that completely change the basis of your thinking.</p>
<p>off topic guys
what is the average GPA range for somebody accepted into Wharton
surely the unhooked applicants don’t need a 4.0 right?</p>
<p>kafkareborn, </p>
<p>We don’t agree on everything but we share the same dream. </p>
<p>E2012CY, </p>
<p>Actually, your question is on topic. It’s the AA talk that was off topic. I doubt there is any quantitative cut-off (and you don’t need an unweighted 4.0 GPA to get into Wharton), but like any program in high demand, the better your scores the better your chances. But leadership is also very important. I imagine Wharton would accept someone with 3.8 and great leadership experiences over someone with a 4.0 with no leadership experiences.</p>
<p>kafkareborn,</p>
<p>You’ve made some fine points; what I still don’t get however is why you’re using this thread (and in particular Rtgrove’s frankly uncontroversial posts) as a springboard for them. Surely most of us, me and you included, will have to deal with false assumptions about our intelligence, abilities, and overall worth throughout our lives. Join me in letting it not prove a true obstacle.</p>
<p>Hey monstor!</p>
<p>Is Penn your top pick for next year? I am asking cuz you mentioned you got a 2400 and were a recruit, so your basically in at at least 1 HYPS ivy.</p>
<p>I’m a white American and I must say to hear the poo pooing of the Black American experience in this Country is quite disturbing. Let’s see now, 300 years of slavery working for no wages while whites were getting paid and passing it down to their children, women being raped routinely by Slave Masters and their buddies, separating children from their parents at birth so that nothing of their African traditions would be passed along to them, people hung or lynched like animals upon trying to stand up for their freedom, pregnant women hung and disembowed of their offspring to create fear in the other slaves, not allowed to read or write in order to keep them behind all other racial groups particularly whites, being transported into servitude on cramped diseased ships and then mercilessly thrown overboard when they got ill (estimated 80 million died this way), Sunday after church in your sunday best while Ice Cream is being served bring your children to a Carnival like event to watch a black man hanged, being put on the auction block and sold like cattle with “zero” rights and treated in the most inhumane & abusive way with no recourse for justice or freedom, whites being able for 300 years to work-own land-save money-pass down inheritances for the next generation to continously prosper while blacks were made to stand at the starting line in the Capitalist race for economic proserity, slave labor allowing America to outcompete their European competitors because of the advantage of free labor during the agricultural revolution, etc. etc. etc as I could go on & on. </p>
<p>Affirmative Action is the least this Country can do for those traditionally abused for over 300 years in this Country. I for one never play the Affirmative Action demonizing & excuse game because I realize the long term tragic implications of the Black Experience in America and I’m a better human being for understanding the full ramifications of their horrendous treatment. Thank God they now have opportunities and they would be in a much different position as a race if they were allowed the same freedoma and opportunities as whites for the 300 years of miserable excruciating bondage they were kept in while social & economic mobility was available for whites. Give me a break when you try to pooh pooh what they have been through. I’ve done very well in this Country and I know there is nothing I’ve read that would want me and my family to have lived the Black Experience for even one day!</p>
<p>Umm…ok well first of all you are making a few very, very blanket assumptions here. To begin, it isnt 1865 anymore. Slavery’s over, the Jim Crow laws aren’t around, and we currently are living in an America run by a black president. So, as a whole, America is an extremely tolerant place. Racism simply doesn’t exist in the cultural mainstream of our nation. </p>
<p>Moreover, racism is not something that touches only black families. It hurts arabs, asians, and jews. Look at what happened after 911, if you were an arab-american, people often would just automatically assume that you wanted to harm America because of the culture/religion you were brought up in. However, that kind of racism doesnt really matter to colleges because asians, jews, and arabs all do an outstanding job academically. So, Affirmative Action also discriminates against these often oppressed groups. </p>
<p>Now onto your point that you seem to focus on the most heavily: the racist past of America had condemned most blacks to poverty, which inhibits their ability to thrive academically. I totally agree with you that many blacks (hispanics, asians, native americans) have faced poverty because their families were not able to succeed in the racially sensitive america of the 1800s and early-mid 1900s. I’ve also addressed this point b4. We NEED to implement more potent socio-economic affirmative action policies and do away with racial affirmative action. I believe that many blacks are hurt by poverty, but I also believe many whites and asians are condemned to failure because of their poor upbringing. I don’t think its fair that extremely wealthy blacks receive a boost in admissions when poor whites do not get a big boost in the process. So, why don’t we just help the poor and leave behind the racial assumption that all URMs are poor because of racism behind as I know many blacks raised in wealthier families than my own.</p>
<p>Alright, this will be my last post on this matter. I think we all have the same vision, but just see this issue from different viewpoints. I have nothing against any of you. </p>
<p>Now, onto the topic at hand. </p>
<p>Firstly, why do you keep on going back to 1865, the 1700s, or what have you, as if to say that the black mistreatment in America ended over a hundred years ago. Slavery ended then, but the systemic oppression, discrimination, and economic deprivation of blacks did not. That STARTED to wane by the early 1980s and the late seventies, years after king gave his speech. It’s not like things went “I have a dream!” BAM ! Racism is over! Hoooray ! Now blacks occupy the same social status and have the same opportunities as whites. </p>
<p>Barely a single generation has passed where blacks could attempt to raise their stature to the middle and upper classes. It’s worked in part, some have made strides in that direction, but there is still a long way to go. Having numerous black families in such positions is essential because that will help produce kids of quality making affirmative action unnecessary. Don’t underestimate the power of having educated parents. We need more time to ensure that more blacks come from ivy league and like backgrounds and can then go off to form this middle and upper class that is so essential to our advancement. </p>
<p>Why do you think half of the blacks in the ivy league schools are actually African or Caribbean? </p>
<p>The African and Caribbean people that come over were most likely members of the upper class in their respective countries and came over to go to schools like Harvard and Penn become doctors or Lawyers and what have you. Many of their kids benefited from that and as a result ended up in the same schools with the same results as the white kids. </p>
<p>Few, if any, other races have experienced the same barriers to entry into the upper class that blacks have. For instance, Asians have been attending my prep school since the early 1900s, my school even encouraged it, some of our oldest and most famous alumni come from Asia, the first black to enter the school came in the 1970s if I am not mistaken. The same trend is true in virtually every prep school I know. Furthermore, blacks could not enter many professions that could help them escape poverty like banking; this is precisely because such industries were run by old boys from schools like my own and the ivy league that blacks could not enter. Few black children had parents from successful career or institutions to help them grasp all the opportunities that are out there or to give them the connections necessary to pull themselves ahead. Lastly, That’s there were no black aristocrats and therefore few black parents could pass on the culture of success onto their children. That’s absolutely necessary. The Asian middle class is proportionally larger than any race in this country, the Hispanic middle class suffers similar problems to blacks, but is aided by the close proximity to Mexico and the ability of the Mexican middle class to migrate over (in far greater numbers than blacks from Africa etc), and obviously the white middle and upper class have always run this country. So that’s basically the gist of it all. That’s why affirmative action is still necessary. </p>
<p>That is what must happen to the African American community. A strong middle and upper class (like whites already have), which slavery AND the oppression and subjugation that continued all the way up to the 80s or so, is what prevented such a class from forming. If we were to stop now before that class forms, all is lost. So, if you want to get rid of affirmative action in the long run (as I do because it signifies an achievement gap) then you should be in support of affirmative action in the short run. </p>
<p>That’s what we are striving for.</p>
<p>someone should just start a new thread only about Wharton admission rates</p>
<p>And since you brought up Obama, let me address that. Just look at him. His father got a PHD from Harvard and his mother was also well educated. He had a middle class upbringing in Asia and returned to attend a prep school in America. He then went onto the Ivy League after a short spell in a California lac. That’s what I am talking about. He, I have no doubt, succeeded in part because his parents were of the middle class and gave him inspiration (his father’s contribution since he was not there), or work ethic (his mother’s contribution) that helped him succeed. His family has the culture of success. That’s what we need to happen to more black families.</p>
<p>What do you call situations where an URM student who hasn’t worked as hard as their asian/white counterparts get into a school over more qualified students because of their race? Affirmative action is at best a band-aid solution, and a crappy band-aid solution at that, and at worst a form of racism. Setting lower standards for URMs isn’t doing anyone a favour, least of all for the URMs themselves, because AA that works in their favour doesn’t exist in the real world.</p>
<p>^^^
Exactly right kafkareborn, obama succeeded because he had successful parents. I completely understand that many blacks have been put into poverty because of our past. However, as I keep saying, why can we simply not ignore race in admissions and just aid those in poverty period? Clearly, upper and middle class minorities (like Obama) can succeed and have the tools to thrive academically. Why do they still need a bigger boost in admissions than a poor white/asian kid?</p>
<p>^^ Unfortunate and dangerous. Which is why we should support affirmative action now so we can get rid of it down the line. Read my post if you have not already done so to get why I think that’s the case.</p>
<p>Rtgrove, for the simple reason that there are already enough upper and middle class Asians and Whites to produce far more than enough kids to fill the ivies because they already have a robust middle and upper class, blacks are essentially the only race left in America without one for the reasons I outlined above. The fastest way to correct that imbalance, and therefore usher in a meritocratic system, is affirmative action. If we went by stats alone, the ivies would be 60 % Asian. I grew up in Asia and have seen the Asian work ethic first hand, it’s remarkable, which makes it unfortunate that they get screwed over in college admissions. I am not denying that happens, it does, but EVERYONE screws them over including the whites, just to a lesser extent. Why do I support affirmative action? Because if we were to simply support low-income kids (which we already do by the way, they have an advantage when applying) we would end up without the critical mass of black kids attending top institutions and therefore there will not be a critical mass of black middle and upper class kids to perpetuate the culture of success in future generations. If we do what we are doing now and push hard for the creation of a black middle and upper class, affirmative action will not be necessary in a generation or two max, then we can do away with it and use the strategy you are proposing. It’s all a question of timing and policy gents. I agree, the current system is unfair to many kids who worked very hard (which is why I want it gone just as much as you do), but, in my eyes, it is necessary for the time being while we develop that critical mass.
.</p>
<p>I agree, I have not seen one convincing argument why middle and upper class URM’s deserve an advantage over other applicants with similar socioeconomic statuses. Many, many people face discrimination in America, whether it be by race, national origin, weight or even attractiveness but I firmly believe that similar opportunities exist today for EVERYONE in the middle and upper classes and therefore affirmative action should be abolished.</p>
<p>I would much rather have the LARGE advantage (from my personal experience with local high schools) of being a URM transfered to the poor. In this case, many URM’s would still benefit but I would unfortunately predict black %'s in top universities to drop because there simply isn’t enough help for poor applicants at the high school level.</p>
<p>EDIT: kafkareborn: I would argue that if black applicants from middle and upper classes cannot gain admissions to top universities without racial preferences they do not deserve admission to said universities. It could just be the case that blacks in general don’t want to attend top colleges which in that case no advantages should be given out. While I’m not saying this is the case, I am just purposing the idea that the low numbers of blacks in a university does not indicate racial discrimination, it is merely a correlation. I would also object to your point that we ‘currently support low-income kids’ because, while this is true, it is not to the same extent (once again this is coming from my personal and limited experience) even come close to advantages given to URMs. Being low-income should be what adds 200 points to your SAT, not being black (this info comes from a study by Princeton on affirmative action, it can be found using google I believe).</p>
<p>^^ “I have not seen one convincing argument why middle and upper class URM’s deserve an advantage over other applicants with similar socioeconomic statuses.”</p>
<p>That’s because I did not try to make that argument, I don’t believe they should. However, I do think (for the reasons that I outlined) that poor blacks should get an advantage over poor kids from other groups. Firstly, there are already enough poor kids from other races to fill the ivies (edit: meaning that giving them a 200 point boost would be pointless because they have enough kids to choose from already), partially because they have a robust upper and middle class that can show them the way to success if they are taken under the tutelage of a member of that group of whatever.This is not about racism any more per se, it is about the class structure that racism left behind that disproportionately affects blacks because they have few successful blacks to look up to and/or perpetuate the culture of success onto their children that other races have. A robust black upper and middle class must be created to correct that imbalance and therefore ensure that AA becomes unnecessary. Most upper class blacks I know (that had parents from a strong educational background, not just rich parents) achieved scores similar to whites.</p>
<p>This really was my last post on this topic. Later gents. I hope I have not offended anyone. I feel like we had a good healthy debate though, it’s a much better policy than leaving an elephant in the room.</p>