<p>On your point “poor blacks should get an advantage over poor kids from other groups” I have to strongly disagree. I don’t care if the entire black population is poor; it is still not proof that racial discrimination exists. I’m not going to argue that racial discrimination doesn’t exist for blacks because I know it is quite the opposite. But, I am going to say that MANY, if not all, people face discrimination because of the way they were born and that in today’s society it is unnecessary to hold URMs to a different standard then other applicants.</p>
<p>I should also note that I do not consider discrimination based on say, height, comparable to racial discrimination but it could certainly be in the realm of possibility that being over weight or very ugly could be comparable to racial discrimination. I couldn’t tell you either way but I can tell you that URMs, and blacks especially, have a tendency to overstate the discrimination they have received and ignore the discriminations that say a white jew might have faced in arguments regarding racial discrimination and affirmative action.</p>
<p>That’s because I did not try to make that argument, I don’t believe they should. However, I do think (for the reasons that I outlined) that poor blacks should get an advantage over poor kids from other groups. Firstly, there are already enough poor kids from other races to fill the ivies (edit: meaning that giving them a 200 point boost would be pointless because they have enough kids to choose from already), partially because they have a robust upper and middle class that can show them the way to success if they are taken under the tutelage of a member of that group of whatever.</p>
<p>Edit: discrimination against height, weight, etc is all irrelevant for the simple reason that all such groups have always had a robust upper and middle class thus proving that there was no systemic discrimination that prevevnted members of that group from advancing. No other race in America had to go through slavery and the oppression that continued until the early 80s, that’s just history gents; that decimated any inkling of a black upper and middle class and has hurt black achievement until today. No other race, except perhaps Hispanics and native Americans - who also benefit from AA just as much as blacks, needs to have their upper and middle class rebuilt because they already have one. It’s that simple. That’s why it is necessary. I hate it just as much as you do because it means that my people are under achieving, but I know that that will change if we follow this policy through. We’ve seen it work with Obama, give it a little more time and it will work in general too. Then we can gladly get rid of it and have merit be the only basis for acceptance.</p>
<p>“I don’t care if the entire black population is poor; it is still not proof that racial discrimination exists.”</p>
<p>It is not proof that discrimination exists now, but it is proof that discrimination did exist. That discrimination existed in the current black teens parent’s generation and IS still affecting them because it has caused very few are to emerge into the upper class. No black teen today directly suffers under the effects of segregation, but they indirectly because segregation caused schools in black areas to be poorer, and therefore parents to be less educated, and therefore their kids were not taught the value of education and the culture of success, and thus the underachievement. Discrimination is undeniably the cause of that and a generation has not even passed since such discrimination ended. So it is the legacy of discrimination and not discrimination itself that is the biggest obstacle for blacks.</p>
<p>“discrimination against height, weight, etc is all irrelevant for the simple reason that all such groups have always had a robust upper and middle class thus proving that there was no systemic discrimination that prevevnted members of that group from advancing”</p>
<p>Weren’t there multiple studies that showed that attractive people earned 10-20% more than unattractive people?</p>
<p>Apparantly tall men also earn around 10% more than short men.</p>
<p>RTgrove said: “I don’t think its fair that extremely wealthy blacks receive a boost in admissions when poor whites do not get a big boost in the process. So, why don’t we just help the poor and leave behind the racial assumption that all URMs are poor because of racism behind as I know many blacks raised in wealthier families than my own.”</p>
<p>You should also add RTgrove that you don’t agree with extremely wealthy whites getting a boost in admissions because this happens all the time and I have friends who have benefitted from the “leg up” their wealth gives them over “everybody” as they’re called nicely & sanitized “development cases” (think endowment contribution). My household would be considered very affluent and the Prep School my daughter attended is full of deep pockets and let me tell you, things generally go our way when admissions season arrive whether for Boarding School or College Admissions. Examples: George Bush was unqualified for Andover & Yale but got in because Dad was a wealthy Skull & Bones Senator. Bill Frist donated millions to Princeton and erected a building bearing his name and his underachieving son got in. Al Gore Jr was unqualified to be admitted to Princeton as he had a history of trouble and mediocre achievement but because Dad was a former VP and a second generation “connected” Politician, his son got accepted over statistically more “qualified” applicants.</p>
<p>Kafkareborn said: “If we went by stats alone, the ivies would be 60 % Asian”. This is also true and pointed out in great detail by Wall Street writer & Author Daniel Goulden in his best selling book, “The Price of Admissions”. However, statistics a great College class it does not make as there is a need for “all” types of people that one can learn from in a College Community. Asian Academic proficiency is great but there are other attributes that contribute to a well rounded culturally enriching environment. If we were to go by stats alone then the white student population in the Ivies & top Colleges around the Country would take a dramatic hit and decline in enrollment numbers. Admissions Reps are too smart for this which is why there is a “human” touch to creating an exciting Freshman class.</p>
<p>The other underlying false premise in the positions of some posters is that Blacks are not qualified based upon merit & achievement to receive admissions to the Ivies which once again goes back to the mentallity of “us” in the dominant race. Many Blacks in the Ivies are from “Top Prep & Boarding Schools” and are just as qualified as many whites from prep and suburban schools. Their training is from that of a rigorous academic schedule augmented by mandatory sports participation and deep community service. I personally have witnessed a few African American students of modest means compete head to head and surpass some whites in a very prestigious and wealthy Prep School. Some come from the projects and single head of household and score “high” on the SAT, have excellent grades, are poor but has achieved at extremely high levels academicaly. Think outside of the box as there are occurences happening that lay waste to conventional wisdom believe it or not.This was good for my daughter and her friends to see as they will never assume that all Blacks get a break from AA as they see minorities doing outstanding academic achievement by working their butts off. It’s this Affirmative Action boogey man augmenting some peoples sense of superiority that has led me to gather well heeled friends to make a huge donation last Thursday to increase dramatically the diversity at D’s Prep School. They need to know that given the same opporunity to receive a “quality” education that minorities do just as good and in some cases better than many whites and Asians. </p>
<p>Colleges need Atletes and they to have a place in the admissions class as a School needs to have a good sports program. Wealthy Alumni’s children (legacies), Middle class & poor whites from Kansas-Ohio-Alabama-Kentucky, etc… ("regional & income diversity), Sports mastered at high levels by kids, Wealthy white & Black development cases (endowment donor parents of not so stellar students), Piano players and Artists are all judged differently as they also fufill a schools needs for a balanced and enriching class. This focus on URM’s is a boogey man obssession that ignores the fact that we all have hooks in one way or another.</p>
<p>Threadjack much? The essay-length threads debating AA have overshadowed the purpose of this thread. The topic of the thread is about qualities that the Wharton School is looking for in applicant, and it is in the Penn forum. It is not about Obama’s children or working class White Americans.</p>
<p>This really isn’t the place at all for arguing about socioeconomic classes and discrimination of minorities in college and around the world. Someone searching this forum may click on this thread hoping to find ways to help them improve their education and career and instead find walls of text about different ways to fix the problems that people that lived long ago created.</p>
<p>Honestly, it is very disrespectful. Especially how the people debating AA completely ignore the posts about how they are off-topic, and engulfing posts that are actually related to the topic with looooooong walls of text. </p>
<p>The debate would be better suited to another forum or between private messages but this thread is probably already too far off the tracks.</p>
<p>Wow. This was once a raging debate on AA in admissions. I will insert a thought for posterity.</p>
<p>Both sides here are wrong. A school should not be using AA to atone for societal injustices. </p>
<p>However, schools need to reach out to the broader population of people to diversify its student body and alumni. There are economic and strategic advantages to doing this. Too many to list.</p>
<p>Second, URMs need to work hard to dispel the notion that they are under qualified to be in the Ivies. That means setting personal standards that equal or excel their peers as well as pursuing business, science and engineering with equal vigor vs pursuing African American studies and other soft sciences.</p>
<p>Third, economic advantages translate into academic advantages. URMs need to pursue abundant personal economic success then use that to help their offspring achieve academic success. Too often, minorities are expected and feel personally obligated to uplift their whole race or culture. The result is a dilution of ones efforts-lifting many up a little-rather than focusing on immediate family-lifting a few up greatly.</p>
<p>Fourth, the advantages of AA come with a price. The disadvantages may be worth it to some but not to others. Decide if it’s for you.</p>
<p>Fifth, majority groups that don’t like AA need to find a way to communicate without hostility, condescension or prejudice. There is a liberty and equality argument but that also extends to a private institution’s right to accept or reject whomever it pleases for whatever reasons it decides. A private institution is not a slave to a test score or GPA. Who is to say that getting rid of AA at an Ivy will change the profile of an incoming class? Many assume it will benefit them but who knows? Maybe the interviewer thinks you’re an arrogant snot and the other guy with lower scores is a wonderful human being. Who knows?</p>