Pronoun mess in Ann Arbor

I never said any one person asked to be called by 30 different pronouns. Rather, there have been numerous alternative pronouns proposed and they all come with their conjugated forms, not all of which are intuitive: Here’s a short list:
zie zim zir zis zieself
sie sie hir hirs hirself
ey em eir eirs eirself
ve ver vis vers verself
tey ter tem ters terself
e em eir eirs emself

As for the gender fluid issue, the demand that schools allow a person to use whatever bathroom they wish and permit them to change their mind from one day to the next depending on how they are feeling that day, is a concern for some. If that same principle applies to pronouns, then will we be expected to call someone “he” one day and “zie” the next if he requests that?

@zinhead@Much2learn - You are welcome. You advocated shutting down speech for people you disagree with by categorizing it as “hate speech.” This is the same tactic used by campus bullies who want to intimidate and coward anyone who does not agree with them. If you want a respectful discussion, then be respectful yourself.”

First, your comment is not accurate. My comment said, “I am surprised that this type very thinly veiled hate speech is allowed on cc:.” I am not advocating shutting down free speech for people I disagree with. I am saying that I don’t think the article meets the standards of productive discussion and not attacking others that is expected on cc: I didn’t say they can’t publish it. I think that is fine.

I don’t want to suppress speech broadly and did not suggest that. I even agree with the substantive idea that endless pronouns is a bad idea. Why would I want to suppress that? I am saying that if we don’t maintain a level of human decency, and resect for others, then productive discussions quickly turn to pointless mudslinging.

@dadtwingirls “Y’all don’t see these made up pronouns in the south now do you?”

Nah, how 'bout you’uns?

Am I allowed to feel female but feel that I don’t want to wait in the line at the womens room so I use the mens room?

Or am I allowed to feel neither male nor female, so use either as is convenient?

What are we afraid of? We are afraid of not being respected, and we are afraid of being assaulted if we go in the “wrong” restroom.

The answer is to arrest anyone who assaults someone else regardless of where it happens. And respect everyone by banning urinals and having restrooms with preferences only not laws.

@Much2learn -

Sorry, I see “I am surprised that this type very thinly veiled hate speech is allowed on cc:.” as equating to shutting down speech contained in the article by categorizing it as “hate speech.”

I’m come to the point where I’m just about “pick one for gawds sake just pick one” I don’t want to hear about it, I don’t want to have to worry I’m going to offend someone, I don’t want to have to think about other people’s sexual proclivities on a daily basis and I don’t need to hear about other people’s sexual proclivities. I still think having 3 pronoun choices is enough…he, she, something else. I had to learn it when I studied German, I can adapt to adding a third to the English language but for heavens sake people just 3 choices and just freaking pick one…he, she, or something else - anything, I don’t care just do it and shut up and if you don’t know if you want he or she chose the 3rd choice…whatever that is LOL. We all had to figure out whether we wanted to be Miss, Mrs. or Ms and as a country we survived. We can survive he, she, something else. Maybe his majesty can fix it in AA.

I don’t even want to go back to the bathroom discussion…not going there. I was already told once on CC my personal right to modesty has zero validity.

@zinhead “Sorry, I see “I am surprised that this type very thinly veiled hate speech is allowed on cc:.” as equating to shutting down speech contained in the article by categorizing it as “hate speech.””

First, we don’t entirely have free speech in the forum. As I read the TOS, anyone is free to express an unpopular opinion, but there is an expectation of maintaining productive dialogue, and not disparaging other groups or individuals so that a level of productive discussion can be maintained. In contrast with that, Fox News has a clear and well-documented anti-LGBT agenda, and mocking liberals by discussing the “brave conservative” vanquishing the “leftwing intolerants” who "actually created a “pronoun committee” is consistent with that and not productive.

I think many of the same people who think this is fine would be offended if with a similar article mocking conservatives, and I would agree that I think that would not meet the cc: TOS either. If the discussion remains productive, and not mocking, we will all be better off. Do you disagree with that?

I think the problem with demanding that each person gets to choose a specific pronoun meant only for them is twofold. We already have perfectly good gender neutral words in the English language. It’s reasonable to ask to be referred to by one of them. It’s not reasonable to think that you can dictate that another person use a specific made up word instead. Why should a gender neutral person have more rights than someone who prefers to use standard English? If they’re referring to the gender neutral person in a gender neutral way, why isn’t the gender neutral person happy? The reason seems to be that each gender neutral person wants to be referred to by their own specific pronoun. So the first issue, which is who gets to control whose speech, leads us to the second issue.

We already have gender neutral pronouns in the English language and I understand that some people don’t like them and want a pronoun that belongs only to them, but the English language doesn’t work that way. If TheGFG decides they want to be referred to as “xer,” and only “xer,” if they’re not referred to by name, then “xer” becomes a name for a specific person, place, or thing. In the English language we call that a noun. There’s no such thing as a pronoun that’s used to refer to one specific person. The people who don’t care for made up words are going to care even less for using the English language incorrectly.

So because these words haven’t been incorporated into the English language organically, people try to force the issue. This isn’t new. I don’t believe it will be any more successful now than it’s been in the past. The English language is slow to change. Demanding change won’t make it happen any faster, and it’s no guarantee that it will happen at all.

Thing #1
Thing #2
Thing #3

Rinse, repeat.

@TheGFG I have to call out this statement of yours:

“The problem is that certain groups seem to want everyone to not only accept them, but pronounce them to be super special, courageous heroes for coming out and admitting they engage in activities that for centuries have been considered deviant.” followed by “don’t expect me to say I think bestiality or sado-masochism is wonderful.”

as being inaccurate, derogatory rhetoric aimed at LGBT populations’ fight for equality.

Yes, the LGBT population is fighting for equal rights and acceptance. Yes, LGBT youth are seen as having “courage” by coming out, but that is just because they have been bullied …and worse… for years. In schools and in communities.

I have never heard of sado-maschistic or bestiality groups fighting loudly for equal rights, acceptance and equality in our country. So, if you weren’t inferring this with the lgbt fight, please document these groups’ quest.

Being LGBT, has NOTHING to do what so ever with bestiality and sado-masochism. (Why not also include the common pediphilia claim too… that’s one I always hear).

I literally know thousands of LGBT youth, and none proclaim or come out and want special approval for engaging in bestiality or sado-masochism. In fact none want “special” anything, they just want “equal” protection under the law.

Identifying as transgender (or LGBT) and advocating for preferred pronoun use does not equate what so ever to bestiality or sado-masochism.

Please, lets not conflate this issue.

@Much2learn -

Not at all. But as I recall, your original post stated “What is poor about this article is the continued homophobia of the Faux News propaganda machine.” Is this not mocking?

@zinhead I am not mocking a person or a group of people who are striving to be treated equally.

Faux News is intended to point out that most of what they put out is not news at all, but propaganda machine. I think it is fine that they put out all the propaganda the want, but I don’t have to call it news, because it isn’t. To me that is no different than selling lumps of coal to people and claiming they are diamonds. It should be labeled honestly.

You know when we had to be called “Mrs” or “Miss” I personally felt like I needed a different pronoun because whose business is it if I am married or not? Why should every and anyone get to know my marital status? So “Ms” was created, and there was probably a committee or 100 involved back then.

And yay, more power to the people who did that work because i am personally thrilled to live in a world where the prefix to my name doesn’t announce my maiden, married or divorced status.

It’s entirely possible that we will feel this way about trans people in the future.

I also note that back then, roughly in the 70s, there were people saying stuff like this:

Being divorced was (and still is) considered deviant by some. Sorry you have to call me “Ms” or have a super awkward conversation about why “Miss” or “Mrs” doesn’t work for me.

Perhaps we should just call everyone “they” or some other completely neutral pronoun that applies to all and call it a day.

This is my opinion so I hope i don’t get slammed for it, but I think the general population is now comfortable with the concept of transgender people. I was just out of high school and a tennis player when Renee Richards story hit the media and I am old so this is something that people have had decades to ponder on. Same for cross-dressers, it’s been part of our social awareness and mainstream movies, TV and media. However, I do not think that the general population is comfortable with people who don’t know, can’t figure it out or simply want to decide to be able to go back and forth or the general population thinks it’s some crazy (with crazy the operative word) movement by young people that don’t want to be labeled in any binary way and that “those kids” absolutely know if they are male or female. One additional pronoun is all we need to cover everyone without offending anyone and it won’t matter what is going on with your head or your body.

@Much2learn - Fox News is no different that CBS, NYT, or MSNBC. The “news” they report is filtered and slanted to fit their editorial world view. The scary people are those on the left or the right who believe that any modern media corporation does not have a bias.

I do struggle with this issue, since I don’t want to be the person claiming that language doesn’t change, when it so clearly has. I use “Ms.” in situations where it would be pretentious beyond belief to use “Dr.” I’m sure if I had grown up in another era, that would sound weird, obnoxious, or excessively precious to me. Frankly, I’m not sure how feminists as a whole came to a consensus on “Ms,” but I agree that people who care about these issues need to try to pick a single designation that can be adopted as an alternative to “he” and “she,” because, as others have noted, an “individual pronoun” is a contradiction in terms.

I also think that the concept of being gender-queer/agender is controversial enough that we should be able to question it without being accused of hate speech. If someone says “I am a male attracted to men,” I can’t very well say “no you aren’t,” because that involves a subjective feeling on the part of a person who isn’t me. If someone says “I am a biological male who has always felt trapped in the wrong body,” the same is true – although in that case, given that the person’s subjective feeling conflicts with certain objective qualities, I think it is worth considering the possibility of mental illness in certain cases.

But when it comes to someone saying “I am a biological male, but have never identified with being male. I don’t identify with being female either, but since gender is a social construct, I’m no longer calling myself a man” – well, that involves certain arguable assumptions. I can’t argue with “I don’t feel like a man,” but I can say “well, what you are describing is a limited notion of masculinity - you don’t have to feel like a man or act stereotypically male to be a man, as we define it. Despite new attempts to totally decouple sex and gender, when we use the terms “man” and “woman,” we are referring primarily to a biological designation - one that has come to entail a number of cultural assumptions, but one that still has a certain non-subjective reality.” Now, that person might argue that we shouldn’t be defining people based on gender/sex at all, in non-medical or reproductive contexts, and that might be a position worth arguing – but it is an argument, not a statement of an inherent identity that can and must be respected or accepted without question.

Now, that doesn’t justify being rude to people. Obviously, when I met my friend’s genderqueer sibling, I didn’t discuss this with them, and used the pronouns they requested. On a person to person level, that’s almost always going to be the decent thing to do – and yes, that includes calling students by their preferred pronoun (although I stop short of pre-emptively asking people for pronouns). But when it comes to larger discussions about gender and accommodations, then I don’t think it is unfair to question what seems to me to be a very ideologically freighted position.

Please re-read my post, runswimyoga. I never said anything about any LGBQT GROUPS demanding anything. I was speaking about individual girls that self-identified as gender non-conforming (and elaborated) and who expected a certain response and were offended when they didn’t get it. I am reporting my D’s experience on campus, so I am unsure why you feel the need to call me out. Also, since my younger D considered some women’s colleges, we also read on review sites women at their schools complaining about being shut down, accused, and ostracized for expressing any disagreement about bondage-related sexual behavior and the like.

@zinhead “Fox News is no different that CBS, NYT, or MSNBC. The “news” they report is filtered and slanted to fit their editorial world view. The scary people are those on the left or the right who believe that any modern media corporation does not have a bias.”

Fox News is different for two reasons.

  1. Slanting the news toward what the facts and evidence show is different from slant it away from the facts and evidence. For example their persistent lie in the last election that Romney was winning right up until the end of election day, and even then Rove would not accept it. You may recall that Megyn Kelly had to go back to the data room on air to verify.
  1. All networks misstate some facts, that is true. But for some reason, Fox News misstates facts more frequently on Fox News than on other networks. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/tv/fox/

That is why research shows that Fox News viewers are not only more misinformed than consumers of other news, but also that the more people watch Fox News, the more misinformed they become. (Google it).

I don’t watch Fox News…now I want to :slight_smile: just to see what is going on.

@momofthreeboys I actually do watch it sometimes, because occasionally they do come up with something real. I honestly think that it is always better to get news from multiple sources/perspectives so it isn’t possible to be mislead by only one.