Pronoun mess in Ann Arbor

The following is an excerpt from a college review that illustrates the accusatory atmosphere on campus regarding gender issues:

“I was constantly being asked what my preferred gender pronouns were, and told to check my cis privilege. At various org meetings, I learned that in a certain light, discussing menstruation could be transphobic. I was called a kink-shamer for my controversial belief that BDSM is abuse. I finished out the semester feeling alone and more out of place than I had ever felt in my life.”

I posted this and more above, but my post was deleted due to the quote being too long.

@Much2learn - Don’t worry, there are plenty of stories that are buried by the other networks and newspapers, and Politifact is as biased as any other media outlet.

@Zinhead “Don’t worry, there are plenty of stories that are buried by the other networks and newspapers, and Politifact is as biased as any other media outlet.”

I have provided evidence and can produce more. In contrast, you have produced no facts or evidence that the other networks are as inaccurate and biased as Fox News. Do you have evidence? Or is that just something you say to rationalize your position?

What evidence do you have that Politifact is as biased as any other outlet? Since they are a fact checker, that would seem unlikely. I know they make mistakes, but it would be more difficult for them to be as biased as Fox News, because when they give opinions, they provide their sources. Fox often does not. What facts and evidence do you have to support this position?

@Much2learn - We have performed an experiment with our kids in the past few years by having them read the main headline on CNN and Foxnews when major political stories break. You can predict what both websites will say about major events, and the spin on CNN is just as bad or worse than what Fox does. In fact, for the past few months, there has yet to be a time I have visited cnn.com and not seen an anti-Trump story or opinion highlighted on their main page even when other non-political events take center stage.

As for Politifact, Google “Politifact Bias” for a large sample of articles. The following was one of the better written pieces.

http://humanevents.com/2012/08/30/politifact-bias-does-the-gop-tell-nine-times-more-lies-than-left-really/

BTW, during the primaries, Sanders supporters were claiming that Politifact was biased against their candidate. At this point, we are veering off the thread. If you want to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.

Getting away from Fox News and back to pronouns:

An “individual pronoun” is not a contradiction in terms. It is merely a singular, definite pronoun, as opposed to a plural or indefinite pronoun. By definition a pronoun takes the place of a noun in a sentence. But that does not mean that it turns into a noun. If you start out by naming a specific man and then referring to that man later in the sentence or paragraph by the individual pronoun “he” that does not mean that “he” has become a noun. It’s still a pronoun - just doing its routine job of standing in for the noun.

The Types of Singular Pronouns in English
Subject Pronouns - I, you, he, she, it
Object Pronouns - me, you, him, her, it
Possessive Pronouns - my, mine, your, yours, his, her, hers, its
Interrogative Pronouns - who, whom, whose, what, which
Indefinite Pronouns - another, each, everything, nobody, either, someone
Relative Pronouns - who, whom, whose, that, which
Reflexive and Intensive Pronouns - myself, yourself, himself, herself, itself
Demonstrative Pronouns - this, that

Also, the rise of the use of “Ms.” is something of an apples/oranges comparison to the notion of dreaming up and introducing a new pronoun. Ms. is merely a title - a respectful form of address. and as such is readily changed or altered. Pronouns, by contrast, are fundamental parts of speech - some of the basic building blocks of speech and grammar. Creating a new title is easy. It happens all the time. Creating a new pronoun is altering the fundamental elements of the structure and function of speech and happens very rarely, and never by simple decree of a committee, however well-intentioned that committee might be.

Pronouns in some other languages can be quite interesting. For example Latin has a sort of double-intensive pronoun (not sure if that is correct grammatical term): “per se.”

The singular subject pronoun “ego” - is translated into English as “I”

If you add another intensive pronoun it becomes “ego ipse” - meaning “I, myself…” Which is also said in English when you want to call a lot of attention to yourself, as in “I, myself did these wonderful things.”

But if you really want to lay it on thick in Latin you can say “ego ipse per se” A phrase that doesn’t really exist in English but is usually translated as “I, myself, through myself…” In this case the speaker really letting the listener know just who performed this action and without any help.

In everyday English “per se” is usually used alone to mean something more akin to “in and of itself” or perhaps “exactly.” As in “He is not wealthy, per se, but he does own a lot of cattle.”

@zinhead I know that there are endless articles on sites like humanevents that desperately want to impugn the integrity of all of the fact checkers. I also know that the fact checkers aren’t perfect. Still, you have provided no evidence that Politifact is nearly as biased as Fox News.

The spin on CNN is only the same as the spin on Fox if you assume that spinning toward the facts and evidence is spinning as much as spinning away from facts and evidence.

One example is that Fox News has worked hard to deny global warming and deny evolution. I personally don’t care whether these things are true or not, but I want to understand what the facts and evidence show. If a bias toward science denial is equal to a bias toward science, facts, and evidence, then you are right. In the end, either these things are happening or they aren’t. Pretending it isn’t true is not helpful. Reality is what happens in nature. We don’t get to choose reality, it just happens. Fox News does not seem to understand that.

TRIGGER WARNING: The following is meant to be tongue-in-cheek and is NOT meant to be taken seriously. Skip to the next post if you have found reading or discussing this topic to be too upsetting.

I think that everybody is taking the stupid college student in Ann Arbor wanting to be called “His Majesty” far too seriously, as evidenced by 12 pages of posts about it and people getting pretty animated about it. It’s really dumb that a student is even asked what pronoun he/she/whatever wants to be called. Perhaps on move-in day to college dorms, they should include a starter move in package that includes some bubble wrap and ear plugs so each student can have his/her own portable safe space.

You have gone way off topic and are derailing the thread. Please take your dispute about Fox, etc. to the PM area if you want to continue.*

@tucsonmom I don’t think it is dumb in concept, because they are trying to be inclusive and be fair to everyone. Still you are right that to have endless pronouns seems unworkable to me. If there is a need for one or two new ones, like when Ms. became part of the language, that may work, but an unlimited number is too complicated.Still, Mr. Strobl’s mocking of a well-intended attempt to be inclusive, makes a valid point in a poor way.

In an way I feel bad for Mr. Strobl because this stunt has gotten a lot more press coverage than he probably contemplated, and he may be stuck with the consequences of this juvenile prank for a very long time. The internet never forgets. Many work places will be reluctant to hire someone who actively disparages certain employees.

I don’t think it will impact Strobl in a major way. It is certainly nothing compared to the level of the Yale screamer, Jerelyn Luther, whose employment prospects are likely to be severely limited.

No I don’t think Mr. Strobl needs to worry about anything. His point was well taken whether you agree with him or not. Clearly the committee of 11 and the IT team didn’t’ stop and say wait a minute, there a problem with letting every person come up with their own personal pronoun. It wasn’t a “prank”…he was making a very clear point that got missed by a group of well educated personnel. A prank is something different.

I don’t think Mr. Strobl is mocking the attempt to be inclusive; rather, I think he is mocking the way it was handled - the fact that anyone can pick/choose/invent any pronoun.

But I do have to wonder - and it hasn’t been addressed at all in 12 pages - how often do professors at a university with nearly 50,000 students even address students using a pronoun? My alma mater was less than a third of that size, and in large classes, I might be referred to as “You … fifth row, red sweater” or “the blonde in back in the blue striped shirt.” I didn’t even have a name, just a generic student ID.

Personally, I think having a generic one-size-fits-all pronoun is fabulous (and inclusive).

Yes at least ten pages back I surmised “heh you” works for everyone.

@Zinhead , @Much2learn … as someone who majored in journalism and has worked in journalism for many, many years, I want to make a point that few people realize or understand. Media outlets are businesses that exist to make money. As such, they have customers who tend to lean left or right, and they cater their news to their customers. FOX is consistently conservative, Politico is consistently liberal. People think the media exist as non-biased entities for the public good, but they are wrong. Biases exist not only from an editorial standpoint, but even from what people are interviewed for articles. You might find this interesting: http://www.journalism.org/2014/10/21/section-1-media-sources-distinct-favorites-emerge-on-the-left-and-right/

10 most spoken native languages in the world:

  1. Chinese (935M): No distinction between male/female pronouns
  2. Spanish (390M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
  3. English (365M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
  4. Hindi (295M): No distinction between male/female pronouns
  5. Arabic (280M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
  6. Portuguese (205M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
  7. Bengali (200M): No distinction between male/female pronouns
  8. Russian (160M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
  9. Japanese (125M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
  10. Punjabi (95M): No distinction between male/female pronouns

Total: 3,050M
Distinction: 1,525M
No distinction: 1,525M

Even split.

The irony here is the “well-educated personnel” seem to be processing information and thinking less critically than the person they are suppose to be educating. Maybe they should now be called well-feeling personnel, as logical thought, i.e., using their education, seems not to be operative much anymore.

<what are="" we="" afraid="" of?="" of="" not="" being="" respected,="" and="" assaulted="" if="" go="" in="" the="" “wrong”="" restroom.="">

I am afraid of not being respected, being ridiculed, being called “sexist” or any other “-ist” or “phobe”, having issues with HR for not being able to remember 30 ever-changing pronouns and (probably) making some unfortunate mistake in the society that is ZERO tolerant to people making mistakes, even the most minor.

All these issues are too radioactive. I am a human being and I want to be safe.

Choose ONE pronoun and stick with it. Update English grammar, retype the books, and lets live happily together.

<personally, i="" think="" having="" a="" generic="" one-size-fits-all="" pronoun="" is="" fabulous="" (and="" inclusive).=""></personally,>

I would vote for it. Could we put it into a referendum?

<1) Chinese (935M): No distinction between male/female pronouns
2) Spanish (390M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
3) English (365M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
4) Hindi (295M): No distinction between male/female pronouns
5) Arabic (280M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
6) Portuguese (205M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
7) Bengali (200M): No distinction between male/female pronouns
8) Russian (160M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
9) Japanese (125M): Distinction between male/female pronouns
10) Punjabi (95M): No distinction between male/female pronouns>

Yes, but USA is the only place in the world where you may loose your job for using ONCE the wrong pronoun.