PROS/CONS of a Fraternity

crypto86 · January 1, 2005, 8:48pm

Right, Devilsrule. It's all about personal responsibility. One of my cousins almost died in a car accident because one of his "friends" drove drunk while my cousin was in the same car. My cousin takes full responsibility for his bad actions for drinking underage, but he thought he had a better friend than that. I don't choose to drink but obviously I know people who do. I wish they wouldn't because if they abuse it then they will get into bad situations, but I'm not gonna intrude on their lives unless they are falling fast and they need major help. It's the same with parents letting their kids do stupid things - they need to take personal responsibility. It's really sad how all news, liberal leaning or conservative leaning, really only play bad stuff. It's kinda sad, but sometimes I'm glad I can just watch ESPN without hearing all the bad stuff going on in the world.

Anyways, back to the frats. Like DevilsRule pointed out, unless we have been in a frat/soroity (man sp? hah) or we have friends/siblings who have been in one, we really can't criticize them. Plus I think we all have enough intuition to determine which ones are bad and which ones are good. I would hope so given the fact that we all are extremely intelligent.

coureur · January 1, 2005, 9:26pm

I agree with Carolyn's four points and would add one more:

<ol>
<li> Until Greeks clean up their act and get rid of the problem behavior, they are going to be regarded by many as a blight on the college campus scene.</li>
</ol>

Oh, I've heard the immortal words of Donnie Osmond: "One Bad Apple Don't Spoil, the Whole Bunch". But unfortunately a few rotten apples can certainly leave their stink on all the rest.

I offer an example: when I was in grad school there was series of assaults on female students at night. Many women of the campus, led by some feminist groups, got together and held a "Take Back the Night" march to protest the problem. Well several of the frats on campus saw what was happening and immediately organized a counter-protest where they jeered the women and shouted out insults and promises to rape them.

Needless to say a storm of protest followed, and the University came down on some of the offending frats. And even the frat boys themselves, or at least some of them, could see that maybe demonstrating in favor of rape was probably not a good idea. So they came up with a do-good public service project of providing free safety escorts home to any women walking on or around campus at night. This was in the days before blue lights.

Well, the escort service lasted for a couple of weeks until there was another assault. And who was arrested and later convicted of the assault? You guessed it - one of the safety escort frat boys. So even when they were trying to do good the frats managed to mess things up and basically live up to the Animal House reputation they've created for themselves over the decades.

So were all the frats involved in the pro-rape protests? No, but most of them were. Were all the frat boys guilty of assaulting the women they were pretending to help? No, the program was stopped before that could happen again. But the point is that until the frats absolutely banish this sort of behavior, along with the drinking to excess, and dangerous and degrading initiation rites, Greek life is going have very negative connotations with a large segment of society.

carolyn · January 1, 2005, 10:03pm

I guess I would also add one last thought --- Members of "good" and "responsible" frats should be OUTRAGED at the behavior of the frats that cause problems. They are making YOUR frat look bad by association. If I belonged to a responsible frat, I would be protesting LOUDLY and working to make sure that BAD frats are shut down. But I wonder - is there some badge of brotherhood that prevents frat brothers from acknowleding the problems exist (in other frats) and working to eliminate the bad apples from the system?

fundingfather · January 1, 2005, 10:13pm

Agree with Carolyn's summary (except I thought of one more positive - my son was forced to learn how to tie a tie!!!)

As to Xiggi's insistence on knowing the details of the Harvard study and how binge drinking is defined, he should know enough that until you see how it was defined in the actual question, there are always possible ambiguities. He claims he saw it defined as "in a row". I believe that it may have appeared in a report defined as such, but that doesn't say how it was defined to the student's taking the poll. Here is a quote from another report which refers to Wechsler's definition of binge drinking (which is the definition used by Harvard):

"In surveying students at over 100 college campuses, Wechsler et al. (8) found that 44% of students reported binge drinking, defined as consuming five or more drinks during a drinking occasion (four or more drinks for women). "

Note that it does not say anything about "in a row" but rather "during a drinking occasion" i.e. a party. It appears that even social scientists are having a hard time defining and sticking to a definition of binge drinking.

spn2200 · January 1, 2005, 11:07pm

Coureur: You are personifying "frats" and you shouldn't. The people within the fraternities do are performing these acts, not frats themselves. The purpose of a fraternity is to form a brotherhood not to degrade, so in future posts refer to the individuals that do those stupid acts, not the fraternity as a whole.

Rileydog · January 2, 2005, 12:20am

I agree with Carolyn that we will just continue to agree to disagree. I also agree with coureur's fifth point because that is what brought me to this thread in the firstplace - a terrible reputation and a history of questionable behaviors. Since the participants of frats are continuously moving on, I am not sure who will take responsibility for improving the image of frats or for encouraging or requiring more positive behaviors in those that are problematic.

xiggi · January 2, 2005, 12:28am

FundingFather, I do not doubt that there exist references to binge drinking being defined as you describe it (n drinks on a certain occasion). However, a quick look at the reports that I quoted are pretty clear. 
Here's an example of a paper that summarizes the report discussed herein. Since it is shorter than the original study, it is easier to read in its entirety. See <a href="http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/alcohol_prev/accurateperceptions-1.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/alcohol_prev/accurateperceptions-1.pdf</a>

Definition of binge drinking used in the study:

"Heavy episodic or binge drinking was defined as the consumption of at least 5 drinks in a row for men or 4 drinks in a row for women during the 2 weeks preceding their completion of the questionnaire."

Question used in the questionaire:

Students were asked to respond to the question ?How many drinks in a row must a college (man)/(woman) have in order to be called binge drinker? ? Res ponses, to be provided for men and women separately, were 3 or less, 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , and 10 or more."

fendergirl · January 2, 2005, 12:40am

i think it all depends.. i mean, ive been at parties where people drink four or five drinks in a row.. and they only do it like once or twice a semester.. i don't think theres anything wrong with that.. as long as they know their limit and they know when to stop drinking. four or five drinks in a row isn't going to make my friends puke all over the place. i don't think i've ever drank more than two drinks in a row..

Transfer · January 2, 2005, 5:17am

How many of you currently belong to a greek system?

Well... I do.

You're all so incredibly disconnected and to make statements, lol I laughed out loud at Carolyn's post "But I wonder - is there some badge of brotherhood that prevents frat brothers from acknowleding the problems exist (in other frats) and working to eliminate the bad apples from the system?"

Yes. When initiated we are thrown into dark rooms and forced to never report anything bad. If we do... our families are killed and tuition is doubled. It's quite intimidating.

Some random tidbits not directed to any one poster in particular...

<ol>
<li>Greek systems often boast the highest GPAs on campus, charity events, etc etc.</li>
<li>They do know how to party but it's incredibly responsible if the fratnerity has any sense and dignity. Security is hired, lists are made for admission, anyone who causes problems are kicked out, people who are sick are not just left to die.</li>
<li>Many of you are making incredibly ridiculous blanket statements to apply to entire Greek systems and it's coming from normally well articulated individuals. Unfourtunatley you're not in the systems now and unable to fully gage the problem (or lack thereof).</li>
<li>Personal responsibility is the key here. If you have it, you can drink and study (not at the same time, hehe) being productive in college and participating in these activities BY CHOICE. If you lack personal responsibility, drinking or not, you'd do poor in school. That's the bottom line. </li>
</ol>

This thread is filled with ignorant and disconnected adults using generalizations instead of their own expierence in current systems. This thread gets no further than any debate about "oh my god which ivy is the 5th best?".

Just so you know, I went into college not planning on rushing however I met a group of guys I liked and coming from out of state (iowa into wisconsin) I wanted to know a group. Met a lot of cool people, had a lot of fun, and ended up on the Dean's list. Take it however you want.

fundingfather · January 2, 2005, 10:17am

I think a lot of people are pleasantly surprised by frats once they overcome the stereotypes. My son went into rush week (just before second semester of the freshman year) not planning to join a frat. He had been anti-frat since high school - so much so that he and his friends talked about only applying to schools that did not have frats. However, like Transfer, during rush week he came across a bunch of guys that he felt very comfortable with and he decided to pledge. When he called with his decision to pledge, I was somewhat shocked with the turn around.

fundingfather · January 2, 2005, 10:27am

Xiggi, thanks for the link to another version of the Harvard report. Did you read this:

S t u d e n t s definitions of binge drinking are obtained without
specifi c ation of the time period during wh i ch the dri n king
occurs. This is done because the rates of binge dri n k i n g
a re also obtained without reference to a time peri o d. Th e
s t rong corre l ation of the 5-4 measure without a time specific
ation to alcohol-re l ated pro blems and secondhand effe c t s
m a kes this an important indicator of the type of alcohol use
t h at produces pro blems for the dri n ker and others on campus.

Hence, they do not specify a time period and the responders could quite likely be assuming that the question refers to an entire episode of drinking, i.e., over the course of an entire evening.

crackah · January 2, 2005, 11:25am

Xiggi, unless I am mistaken (and please correct me if I am) you attend Claremont Mckenna. This happens to be a college that has NO greek life. How can people trust the arguments of a person that has no firsthand experience with this group of people?

spn2200 · January 2, 2005, 11:35am

This discussion hasn't touched very much on the pro's or con's of greek life nor has it answered many questions for prospective rushees. If any undergrads have questions about fraternities, feel free to shoot me an email.

coureur · January 2, 2005, 11:35am

spn2200 -

This is a distinction without a difference. A frat (or any other organization) IS its members. As the members go, so goes the frat.

Agreed. But unfortunately some of the frats have lost sight of this purpose and instead focus on the degradation. And that's the whole problem. If that sad fact weren't true we wouldn't be having this this discussion. This thread would have been among the shortest on CC, because we would all be happy with frats and their wholesome brotherhoods.

emeraldkity4 · January 2, 2005, 11:53am

Students benefit by joining a group on campus to give them a base, particulary at large schools, whether that is a frat, a sports team or a club.
If community service is the goal, prospective students should consider schools that have that as a value for other students, not just schools that have Greeks.
If the primary reason for joining a Greek is community service, the national associations have a great deal to correct in the public perception IMO
<a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0201.green.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0201.green.html</a>
<a href="http://www.library.uiuc.edu/edx/rankgen.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.library.uiuc.edu/edx/rankgen.htm</a>

patient · January 2, 2005, 12:28pm

What this thread has taught me:

<ol>
<li> Fraternities/sororities are not a neutral subject and engender emotional responses!</li>
<li> There are good organizations within the fraternity system and it is unfair to generalize. I have no idea whether my son will want to join a fraternity, but whatever he feels comfortable doing is fine with me. I find it lovely that fundingfather, with whom we had vigorous debates in more political times, has very well articulated the surprise that sometimes, a fraternity can in fact be a true brotherhood and can offer a really wonderful family away from home. I trust my son--who has a very sound and uncompromising moral and behavioral compass-- to be able to discern between the good, the bad, and the ugly. </li>
<li> Always remind your children about the danger of binge drinking, ESPECIALLY for those who do not drink. In most cases, I think that the deaths I have become aware of--including one tragic one involving a kid from our school--are from kids who have had no exposure to alcohol and no idea what death through excessive drinking or alcohol poisoning involves--most notably, losing consciousness and choking to death on your own vomit. They just think they'll get really silly. I quote below from a quick google search: <a href="http://members.aol.com/intoxikon/alcohol.poisoning.html%5B/url%5D">http://members.aol.com/intoxikon/alcohol.poisoning.html</a>. This is a really good summary of symptoms, what to do if someone is exhibiting the symptoms, etc.</li>
</ol>

"Whereas some people only vomit when they have consumed too much alcohol, other people just fall asleep (with or without vomiting) after they have consumed too much alcohol. In these people, death can follow in one of two ways: you may fall into a deep sleep and vomit while sleeping. What's the result? You choke on your own vomit because you are too intoxicated to wake up and clear out your airway. In other instances, you simply fall asleep and never wake up, because the concentration of alcohol is so high that the areas of your brain controlling life functions are so depressed that they stop functioning and so do you."
The author points out that you don't know when you've had too much to drink because the alcohol impairs your judgment and keeps you from recognizing it.

spn2200 · January 2, 2005, 12:31pm

I found some news articles that I thought some of you might be interested in.

patient · January 2, 2005, 1:11pm

Good point. Go to the website of the college or do a google search for fraternities and the name of the college, and you'll find stuff specific to the campus you might be asking about. From the Greek101 website listed above, I found an article specific to son's school: <a href="http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=12197&repository=0001_article%5B/url%5D">http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=12197&repository=0001_article</a>. But go to the bottom, and you'll see that the same group is on alcohol probation. A mixed bag, to be sure.

MrTrojanMan · January 2, 2005, 2:31pm

wow. what an ineteresting discussion. this reminds of those "usc vs. ucla" threads that aimlessly go on on on.

i am greek sytem proponent. let me show you why:

it offers meaningful experiences. i cant really put this into words, just trust me.

it helps your social life. you can go to mixers and socials with other sororties. you can have formals every term. you can host parties for incoming freshman and potential rushees, helping others have a better social life. these are things individuals cant do on their own.

it offers help when finding a job. old alums will come to your chapeter meetings, looking to recruit for internships or fulltime jobs. thsi is a huuuge perk.

you can meet really diverse people. ive met people from the most superficial to the most scholarly. all were very interesting.

you learn about diversity. you learn how to respect differences of opinion. this can really open people up.

you can find yourself. the pledgeship process is made to break you down into your most raw self. hazing is defined as anything a frat tries to make you do that you dont want to. a very loose definitioni f you ask me. when doen right, hazing works. too bad it often gets abused and is hard to do right.

you bond with the friends you make. its normal to have a best fiend in a frat, usually these people end up being life long friends, best man at your wedding, the guy you call when youre really in a jam.

there are more but my fingers hurt.

anywyas, you really have to experience greek life for yourself. you CANNOT have an opinion before even experiencing it. that would very stupid. you can babble all you want about alcohol abuse, hazing, and other utter bs. this is a very small portion of what makes up the greek community in the us. what would you rather be interested in hearing about, a frat that killed a pledge or frat that is raising money by hosting philanthropic events? you cant form an educated opinion about the greek system from what you hear.

buying friends? please...the money you front always goes toward the good of the organization. just like membership dues for any club. stupid...

and heres more: the social aspect of greek life is huge. it can really help a school that lacks spirit. for example, most of uci's soical life and school spirit is centered on the greek community. unfortunatly at a school like uci, most students dont like the greek system b/c they have preconcieved notions that it is evil. like most people on this dumbass thread. so the greek system there is really limited. now, at a school llike usc or duke or unc or whatever, the ssystem sometimes is a little overkill.

another thing: you will always have that rushee that comes to an event and is like, "the girls man, where the girls at". these dousche bags are usually the first to get punted, and there are a lot. the guys in the system can always get the girls the want without frat. or be social without frat. the frat is just an easier means of doing so. you have to be a real loser to not get a bid. frats usually see these people as liabilities. nobody wants their charter revoked.

there is areason why the greek sytem builds so many leaders, more than any other organization. the greeks are here to stay so get over it.

millie05 · January 2, 2005, 3:51pm

I personally see frats as buying your friends, but if your career plans require membership in the "old boys network" maybe you should pledge, but otherwise--don't waste your time- or money

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