**PSAT Discussion Thread 2015**

In the past, what scores on the PSAT did you need to get an email from TASP?

@labegg

S2 took it this Oct. S1 took it 2 years ago and nailed it on his only try w no prep, so I don’t know why people bellyache so much about other people having an “unfair advantage” because of substantial prep.

Both kids are in the highest cutoff pool.

@Mamelot

LOL!

@GMTplus7 Nope, not concerned with bellyaching, lol. I am sure there are those that are able to nail it on the first try no prep. Just wondered what your basis was for saying that this year’s PSAT test was “dumbed down”. Seeing as how the test scores have not been released and all…

@GMTplus7, because it’s known that “substantial prep” helps many kids score substantially higher. As does going to a good school.

I recall thinking one of the questions in the practice PSAT test was rather ambiguous. The questions may be easier but only when you understand what the heck they are asking. I think my daughter also thought one of the questions on the exam was unclear. How do you distinguish between “hard” and “poorly written or ambiguous”? Either way a lot of kids will get it wrong. It’s frustrating when you understand perfectly well what the reading passage means but are puzzling over what the question is trying to ask, or trying to pick between answers which don’t answer the question too well. I wonder how much they’ve been able to vet these questions.

I looked briefly at the English literature SAT2 test today and noticed some of the same issues. Passage is understandable but hard to tell what the test writer is thinking.

Also, I imagine people’s definition of “no prep” differs. My daughter reviewed the test format and took the practice PSAT prior to the actual test. She may have done even more, So, she prepped. I think it’s unlikely that if you’re a CC member, you or your kid did not prep.

@Plotinus, “I think CB’s idea was to align the new test closer to the school curriculum (at least the Common Core school curriculum)… If you are very good at Common Core skills because you picked them up in school or elsewhere, the test is easier. If you did not pick up strong Common Core skills in school or on your own, the test is harder.” It will be interesting to see whether the kids from states that are teaching Common core do better than those from states which did not adopt Common Core. Personally, I don’t think a general admissions test should be aligned to one curriculum which is not in use in all states.

@mathyone
There is no one curriculum that is in use in all states in the US.

There are volumes and volumes that could be written about what kind of test the SAT should be, what it should measure, what function it should have, etc…

Initially it was supposed to be an IQ test for applicants to Ivy League schools.

The structure, content, and function of the SAT has evolved repeatedly and enormously since its invention post WWII.
The most notable change is the increase in the number of students who take the test.
There has also been a shift from measuring IQ to academic aptitude to college readiness.

In recent years, the numbers have stagnated, probably because of competition from the ACT. CB is trying to use alignment with Core Curriculum to stem the flow and possibly to increase market share even further. It is also a way to combat the growth of the test-prep industry, and to try to shore up plummeting median scores, especially in reading.

The decision to align the SAT with the Common Core was made long before it became clear that Common Core was going to be rejected by so many states.

Other countries would not entrust a college admissions test to a private company. National school-leaving tests are written by the ministries of education. Admissions tests for highly selective universities are written and evaluated by faculty at those universities. This is the US. There is a long tradition of leaving things like this (and health care) to the private sector.

While there is no national curriculum, that does not mean @mathyone’s point is not without value. CB has written a curriculum, Springboard, which is used by over 1.4 million students. Since Springboard is assessment heavy, are students who are being educated via Springboard being “groomed” for the wording on the new test formats?

@Mom2aphysicsgeek
The wording of SAT/PSAT questions has always been very unusual and difficult to understand for many students.

Are you suggesting that the wording of problems contained in the Springboard program is more similar to the wording of redesigned SAT/PSAT questions than is the wording of questions in other Core Curriculum programs?

The wording of the Khan Academy questions I have seen is NOT very similar to the wording of the official redesigned practice tests.Are you saying Springboard has more similar wording than does Khan Academy?

Do you have any illustrative samples of this?

Sorry to bring Telluride back up, but, as a sophomore who took the 2015 october test, should I be getting an invitation for TSSS after the releasing of results on Jan. 7 (if I did indeed make the cutoff)?

My D found the Writing section to be “challenging” but feels she did very well (that is her strong area). She used the Blue Book and Khan Academy to prep for the Math section and did good on the practice test. On the actual test she encountered several (~10) math problems that were unfamiliar to her. A couple of her friends concurred that there were problems they had not seen before and were unsure how to solve. Both her friends are in AP Calc BC and were at NMSF score levels in 10th grade.

My D scored in the 98 percentile for the State’s Algebra II Assessment exam, so I would consider her good at Algebra, at least for our state.

We are in a non-Common Core state. Is the new PSAT so Common Core orientated that students with a Common Core background will find it easy and students with out that background find it foreign material?

I would love to see the actual test. I tutor, so I spent time on the practice tests (both PSAT and SAT) for the new version. My take home for the changes in math is that you now really need to know what the algebra is all being used for, not just how to go through the motions. I tutor many AP calculus students who rely on their calculator for a lot of the algebra skills (graphing in particular). Those students would find the new PSAT/SAT very challenging. You also need to apply the mathematical answer, rather than just “solve for x” so to speak. For what it’s worth, these changes will help future students continue with math in college, as AP calc to college calc is a huge step change and point of struggle for many students. But the growing pains will be difficult. I think in the long run too that schools will realize that the “algebra for all” mentality has flaws.

I live in a non-common core state but our school uses Springboard in the English classes, so there may be prep happening in the schools that parents are unaware of.

Your kids tell you so much about the test! I can barely get an “It was okay” out of mine.

My D’s Algebra was very graphical calculator oriented. When the state wide assessment exam came out it did not allow the use of graphical calculators. The scores on the exam were so low, they could not be used and the exam was thrown out. While my daughter did score in the 98th percentile, her raw score was only 85% correct. I guess everyone in the state is in the same boat, it will be interesting to see the NMSF cut-off this year.

This is why the delay in releasing scores is so frustrating. My D is willing use Khan Academy to “re-learn” Algebra, but without scores there is no “customized study plan” in Khan Academy as promised. She is basically studying blind during the Winter break, after I (not tax payers) paid for her to take the PSAT as an assessment with the understanding that the results were to be released “about two months after the exam was administered.” Once the Spring semester starts there will be little time for re-learning before she takes the New SAT.

She could use Summer of her Junior year for SAT study, but should I trust a plan that relies on on the CB getting her SAT scores to schools that have early cut-offs?

@Plotinus No, I have no examples. It is purely speculation, but not random. Publishers/textbook authors tend to produce works with their “voice.” They tend to use terminology/wording that carries through their publications/texts. Switch publishers/authors and you often find different terminology/wording. Since CB produces both, it would not be unusual for the “voice” to be similar.

Fwiw, my kids never take standardized tests until the SAT/ACT. My dd finds the new format easier. Don’t know what that indicates.

I just got an email from the College Board reminding me to have my children create a College Board account so they can view their scores on Thursday, January 7th - let’s hope this means they won’t push the dates back again!

Yes - let’s hope that “Starting on Thurs. Jan. 7” or whatever their wording is actually means they’ve gotten the access codes out to the students by that date.

@3scoutsmom I doubt they would push them out again - since they already HAVE the scores and have sent them to their vendors!

@Plotinus, apparently the college board thinks that alignment to common core is meaningful, and insofar as the test is deliberately aligned to any particular curriculum, it does place students in states where that curriculum is not used at a disadvantage. We don’t have anything called “Springboard”. I’m not sure how much of a problem the common core orientation is but it could certainly help if some students have been seeing these kinds of questions in school a lot.

Yes, sometimes math textbooks use their own particular phrasings or terminology and switching books or programs can require a slight adjustment. We are told it makes a difference to test results whether the kid in the word problem is named Joe or Jose or Joanna, so surely it’s not hard to believe that an “alignment” toward one particular curriculum/ teaching style, whatever you want to call common core, could affect results, particularly when near-perfect results are needed for success.

I think the time pressure is the bigger issue though.