quandary

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>This is my first post and I apologize in advance if it sounds presumptuous or entitled.</p>

<p>My father graduated from Columbia and I've been told that by applying ED as a legacy, my chances for admission would be significantly enhanced. My problem is that after researching and visiting both Harvard and Columbia, I've developed a strong preference for Harvard (to my dad's chagrin). Based on high test scores and a stellar academic record and ECs (I'll spare everyone my litany of achievements), I believe I have a shot (at least 5%!) of getting into Harvard. My chances at Columbia would presumably be better; I've been told Columbia looks quite favorably on qualified legacies, admitting upwards of 50%.</p>

<p>So, if I apply early to Columbia (which is binding) I may always, at some level, regret that I didn't at least try for Harvard. On the other hand, if I squander my opportunity to apply early to Columbia and apply EA to Harvard, I might ultimately get rejected by both schools (I do recognize there is no guarantee I'll get into Columbia even if I apply ED). Because the odds for getting into either of these schools is so astronomically low, wouldn't it be prudent to use any advantage I have and apply ED to Columbia? I almost wish I didn't love Harvard so much...</p>

<p>Any insights?</p>

2

<p>You should only apply binding ED to a “first choice” school,that you would attend with no regrets. If your stats are that good, you will likely have great options even if (your suggested worst case) you don’t get into Harvard EA or Columbia RD. The goal should not be to figure out where you can get in, but where you can get in and be happy & successful. Let that dominate your list making and ranking, not the likelihood of getting in.</p>

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<p>You should only apply binding ED to a “first choice” school,that you would attend with no regrets.
If your stats are that good, you will likely have great options even if (your suggested worst case) you don’t get into Harvard EA or Columbia RD. The goal should not be to figure out the highest ranked school where you can get in, but where you can get in and be happy & successful. </p>

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<p>@VSGPeanut101 - If Harvard is your first choice, and you don’t apply, you will never know if you would have been accepted. I would also think that applying SCEA to Harvard would not greatly affect your chances of being accepted to Columbia - as a highly-qualified legacy, it shouldn’t make much of a difference whether you apply ED or RD. That’s just a supposition though. Perhaps someone on the Columbia forum might know more.</p>

5

<p>Both Harvard and Columbia offer a Liberal Arts education to all students. Each school though takes a different approach. </p>

<p>At Columbia, every student, regardless of major, MUST take the same basic set of “core” courses during their freshman and sophomore years, which include:</p>

<ul>
<li>Contemporary Civilization</li>
<li>Literature Humanities</li>
<li>University Writing</li>
<li>Art Humanities</li>
<li>Music Humanities</li>
<li>Frontiers of Science</li>
</ul>

<p>Columbia prides itself on it’s core-curriculum, which gives every student from the 1930’s to present-day the same commonality. For some students though, it’s very much like high school – you must taking those specific courses; there is no deviation and no choices. For more info, see: <a href=“The Core Curriculum”>http://www.college.columbia.edu/core/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Harvard’s Liberal Arts requirements are met by selecting individual courses from a broad range of academic areas: <a href=“http://www.generaleducation.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do”>http://www.generaleducation.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<ul>
<li>Aesthetic and Interpretive Understanding</li>
<li>Culture and Belief</li>
<li>Empirical and Mathematical Reasoning</li>
<li>Ethical Reasoning</li>
<li>Science of Living Systems</li>
<li>Science of the Physical Universe</li>
<li>Societies of the World</li>
<li>United States in the World</li>
</ul>

<p>Students that like Harvard’s approach generally dislike Columbia because it’s too rigid. Those students that love Columbia, tend to not like Harvard, as it gives them too many choices. </p>

<p>@Regurge01: Rather than trying to predict where you might have the better chance, focus on which school has the educational approach that fits you best! If you like Harvard better, apply SCEA and apply to Columbia RD. If you like Columbia better, apply ED and apply to Harvard RD. It’s really that simple!</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses. Gibby, I especially appreciate the insights and the specificity with which you contrast Columbia’s rigid core curriculum with Harvard’s more self- motivated approach. </p>

<p>My dad seems to think the core was incredibly nutritious for him, and that it helped him learn how to think and reason, more valuable, in fact, for his later entrepreneurial pursuits than his MBA.
Again, I believe I would be incredibly blessed if lightening strikes at either of these amazing institutions. </p>

<p>VSG Peanut suggests that one shouldn’t try to figure out the highest ranked school where you have the best shot, but rather where one would presumably be happiest, where the “fit” is best. This seems to be the prevailing wisdom here on CC: don’t get caught up on the status of the ivies; don’t try to get in for the “wrong” base reasons. </p>

<p>But isn’t it impossible to pedict the ultimate best fit? I would think it could depend on innumerable factors, unpredictable things like a life-changing professor, an internship off campus, a freshman roommate… What the hell do I really know at eighteen anyway? Just a few years ago I wanted to be a fireman (no offense to that noble profession). </p>

<p>Given the truly absurd odds,!the weight society and future employers give to these highly selective schools, wouldn’t the best advice be to use whatever advantages you have to get into the most selective school possible?</p>

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<p>Regurge01 - You’ve analyzed the situation well. It’s refreshing to see your thoughtful, humble, and pragmatic analysis. Wherever you end up studying I’m sure you’ll do well.</p>

<p>As I see it, there are two ways to look at it:</p>

<p>Perspective 1 - Harvard is your clear first choice. If this is the case, apply early to Harvard.</p>

<p>Perspective 2 - You strongly want to attend either Columbia or Harvard (with no particular preference) and want to maximize your chances of getting into at least one. If this is the case, apply early to Columbia.</p>

<p>From your first post I thought you held the first perspective. But from your most recent post I see it might be the second.</p>

<p>Either way, you can only take one path and you’ll never know where the other path would have led.</p>

8

<p>

</p>

<p>For schools that have the same educational philosophy, yes. But Harvard and Columbia are very different. If it makes absolutely no difference to you, then I would suggest you apply ED to Columbia as you have the legacy advantage. As @Shepa said: You can only take one path.</p>

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<p>Thanks for kind words and sage advice</p>

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<p>@Regurge01‌ A few years ago my daughter, who is a sophomore at Harvard, had to make essentially the same choice as you (with a different Ivy). Like you, she had a “strong preference” for Harvard but applying meant she had to give up the boost of legacy and also that fact that other top schools were very interested in her. I can sympathize with what you are going through.</p>

<p>The only thing I can say is that no one can help you make this decision but yourself. Only you know how much you really prefer Harvard over Columbia and how viable a candidate you are for Harvard in the SCEA round (which is ultra-competitive for the unhooked). I don’t know where you heard the 50% number for Columbia’s qualified legacies but my impression is that Columbia has one of the lowest preferences for legacies of the Ivys. I believe that typically the % of the class that is legacy is single digits which means that either they accept less legacies than other Ivys or fewer apply than say at HPY. I don’t know enough to say which is the case.</p>

<p>Anyway, getting back to my daughter, she decided to apply early to Harvard because she had an extremely compelling profile and she knew that she would wind up at a good school irrespective of what happened at Harvard. If you feel the same then take a shot at Harvard. Even though you will lose the legacy boost at Columbia, since you have high test scores and a stellar academic record and EC’s, you will probably still have decent chance of being accepted there RD (if Harvard doesn’t work out) and/or you will be accepted at another top school. That’s my two cents, but again, only you have all the information to make the decision. Whatever you decide, don’t look back. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Falcon, thanks for the advice. I certainly hope schools consider me as viable a candidate as I think I am. But from what I’ve been reading on this forum, viable candidates seem like a dime a dozen! </p>

<p>To answer your question, my high school GC told me about the >50% odds for “qualified” legacy candidates at Columbia. Given the low admittance figures, this does sound like a scandalously high (and likely inaccurate) figure. Nevertheless, I’m sure there must be some sort of legacy boost. </p>

<p>I’m curious about your daughter’s experience at Harvard. I do feel somewhat silly and presumptuous asking H students about their experiences in a way that sounds like I’m weighing whether on not I should go there. It seems like asking a Powerball winner whether he thinks I should buy a lottery ticket. </p>

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<p>^^ That’s like half the kids on CC. </p>

<p>But honestly it’s really refreshing to read your posts, from the sounds of them, that you will be successful no matter where you will go. You obviously are consciously being thoughtful about your choice and it’s obviously one that you will have to deliberate on. All I can do is offer some anecdotal experience, but it is a decision where you will probably have to weigh many different options.</p>

<p>Whether you graduate from Colombia or Harvard, you can be successful. My friend’s brother and my cousin graduated from Colombia and Harvard respectively. The former majored in musical theater, lighting and design. The other majored in applied mathematics. Both are now working at top investment firms now. There is obviously alot in between and I think that should be where the focus of your search should be. </p>

<p>Things you could ask yourself: How strongly is your preference tilted over one or the other versus how strongly would you prefer to attend either of those schools versus the other options? What is your preference based off of? Which location and curriculum appeals to you more?</p>

<p>In the end, trust me when you say after you make your choice and decide on a school, you will enjoy it whether you originally planned to or not. College is made up of amazing experiences and people, and making a college choice between one school or another is actually an alot smaller decision than people on here can make it seem.</p>

<p>Good luck with everything!</p>

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<p>@Regurge01‌ There is definitely some sort of legacy boost especially if your father has been actively involved at Columbia over the years. This can be in a variety of ways.</p>

<p>My daughter absolutely loves being at Harvard! She has met a ton of amazing kids and is very involved in a number of activities. That being said, the workload for her is extremely high due to her choices of a primary concentration and a secondary field. She is also playing an intramural sport.</p>

<p>Not everyone feels the same as my daughter, however. Gibby has been candid in sharing that his daughter has been very unhappy at Harvard and I recently chatted with a fellow who just graduated and is in a highly coveted position in a consulting firm who told me that he and his best friend definitely would not look back at Harvard as the “best four years of their lives” as many (including me) fondly like to think of our college years. In fairness though, I also know many other graduates who feel the way my daughter does.</p>

<p>She finds that the kids on balance are ultra-competitive but that does faze her at all -in fact she thrives on it and feeds off their intensity and energy. She is highly disciplined and has her days completely scheduled out from the getting up early to hit the gym to late at night when she goes out for a brain break. I feel that other top schools, like Yale, for instance seem to have kids who are a little more laid back. My alma mater was not somewhere in between and we definitely all feel a very close affinity to our school. Finally, I may be wrong but I get a very different vibe about Columbia. I feel that the kids who go there (and are largely attracted to being in NYC) are much more independent minded and enjoy their learning experience but do not feel as much a sense of school spirit as in many of the other Ivies. The entire city is their campus if they are willing to explore and take advantage of this amazing gift. They feed off the energy of the city and certainly are not going to pep rallies and football games and other school spirit building activities.</p>

<p>In short, all the schools are different in character and student body and only you know how you might fit in. Gibby already discussed the difference in academics at the schools you are looking at. Do not engage in name chasing, especially if the school is not right for you. For various reasons, my daughter knew exactly what she was getting into and it hasn’t disappointed. Others who may have chosen Harvard mainly because of its name or the perception that it has to be a great experience because it is Harvard can find themselves feeling like a square peg in a round hole and sorely disappointed.</p>

<p>Again, good luck! I’m sure you’ll make the right decision.</p>

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<p>^^ meant “was somewhere in between”.</p>

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<p>“But isn’t it impossible to pedict the ultimate best fit?”</p>

<p>It’s impossible to predict with 100% certainty. It is possible to make a pretty darn good guess. </p>

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<p>You don’t really have to determine what is “the ultimate best fit.” What you need to determine is what is a good fit, and what isn’t. Frankly, I believe Columbia and Harvard have much more in common than they have differences, and some of the differences are easy to exaggerate. </p>

<p>Columbia and Harvard have totally different takes on what a “core curriculum” should look like, but the reality is that much of what the two different programs are trying to accomplish is the same. Many Columbia students – not all, though, not by a long shot – choose Columbia in part because they affirmatively like the idea of its Core, but as far as I can tell almost all of the students there feel ambivalent about it while they are taking it. It has good points and bad points, and you can’t wish either away. The one thing it does, that Harvard’s core doesn’t, is to give almost everyone in the college a common frame of reference and vocabulary for talking to one another. But – guess what? – I don’t think Harvard students actually have a lot of trouble talking to one another across the differences in their educational backgrounds and interests, and the fact that they tend to spend more time on campus talking to one another makes up for some of lack of common courses. And the zeitgeist at both colleges is the same, which is that scientists are expected to be interested in the humanities, and artists in science, etc. etc.</p>

<p>Another thing that’s very similar about both colleges: Lots of students choose Harvard at least in part – large part – because it’s the center of the academic universe. And lots of students choose Columbia in large part because New York City is the center of the artistic and financial universes. In other words, a lot of people at both colleges care about being at the center of things, or the pinnacle, or whatever – they want to be where it’s at.</p>

<p>Both colleges have rich, poor, and in-between students. Both Cambridge/Boston and Manhattan offer rich students near limitless opportunities to spend money and to get a great experience in return. In both cases, that can feel a little oppressive to non-rich classmates. A clever, careful student can do amazing things for free or close to it in both places, too. (I don’t want to imply that non-rich kids shouldn’t go to Columbia or Harvard, just that they should be prepared to recognize how non-rich they are, in a way that’s not so apparent at similar colleges.)</p>

<p>And, finally, I doubt there’s more than a lick of difference between the students the two colleges accept. They are really the same people, and have been doing the same things for their 18-year lives. Columbia is more New York-weighted, and Harvard more New England, but that’s a matter of nuance, not clear difference. Both have tons of people from the New York area, and from California, and from New England. They took the same courses in high school, and generally have the same ambitions and interests.</p>

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<p>JW, your analysis of the the two schools is extremely enlightening, so many pearls of wisdom. I wish you could replace our high school GC! </p>