Question about Congressional nominations

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
1

<p>Let me start by synopsizing what I think I know about service academy Congressional nominations (I'm ignoring Presidential and Vice Presidential ones intentionally). </p>

<p>Each member of Congress (MOC) can nominate up to ten candidates each year to each academy. In their nominations, the MOC can either specify a top candidate, rank all ten in order, or simply provide an unranked list from which the academy can choose. Also, each MOC is allowed to have up to 5 cadets/mids at each academy at any one time. I also understand that an academy can fill "extra" slots with additional candidates from a MOC's list of nominees.</p>

<p>Here's my question. Our congressman's web site shows him giving Navy appointments to three different people from our district this past May. Do all of these count towards his total of 5 mids? In other words, do any candidates who fill "extra" slots count towards their Congressman's total?</p>

2

<p>They could count toward his allotment of 5 slots, i.e. it's possible that he/she had 3 empty slots and made 3 principal nominations of 3 3Qed candidates. More likely though, 1 or 2 of the appointments were made from among his/her nominees who were 3 Qed even if not receiving his/her appointment and then went into the "national" pool and were appointed from that group in which case, your MOC may "claim" them in his PR announcement and indeed may have nominated these candidates even though they did not receive his/her appointment slot. Another possibility may be that the candidates had a presidential or other form of nomination in addition to or in lieu of his/her nomination and they came from his/her district.</p>

<p>btw, this is very common for an MOC to identify multiple appointees from his/her district that are not "counted" against the MOC's quota of 5 at at time. Districts have no quotas.</p>

3

<p>whistle pig wrote,
"...made 3 principal nominations of 3 3Qed candidates"</p>

<p>This is a non-sequiter because IF the MOC uses the principal with alternatives method, there is only ONE principal nominee each year to the Naval Academy.</p>

4

<p>2012mom wrote,
"Our congressman's web site shows him giving Navy appointments to three different people from our district this past May."</p>

<p>The MOC (member of congress) nominates candidates for appointments. The service academy gives appointments to the candidates.</p>

5

<p>Whistle Pig is essentially correct. Regardless of how the MOC allocates his nominees (principal or merely a list), the number of appointees slotted to him/her is the number of open slots he/she chooses to fill. It is possible that the MOC has 2 (or more) openings this year for one of the SAs but fills only one because, for example, the MOC knows he/she has zero open slots next year. The SAs work with the MOC offices to address these issues -- candidates may or may not be told how many openings the MOC will fill in a given year, if it's more than one.</p>

<p>The remaining 9 (or fewer) candidates who are not slotted to the MOC go into the national pool and, especially in very competitive geographic districts, one or more of these nine may obtain appointments slotted to another source (President, SecNav, etc.). </p>

<p>BTW, USNA09mom, I think an MOC could make more than one principal nom if he/she has more than one opening. IOW, if the MOC has 2 vacancies and chooses to fill both of those vacancies this year, the MOC could make a principal nom (with 9 "alternates") for each vacancy. </p>

<p>And please don't be too hard on 2012mom -- as you've learned, this is a difficult process to master. Getting the terminology correct takes time -- and it can be daunting even for veterans of the process. :)</p>

6

<p>Sorry, I should have written, "Our congressman's web site shows him handing letters of USNA appointments to three different people from our district this past May."</p>

<p>Thanks for all of your clarifications.</p>

7

<p>85,</p>

<p>Right on...for each vacancy, a MOC can nominate up to 10 candidates (so if there are 2 vacancies, then 20 people can be nominated!)</p>

8

<p>The whole business of 5 slots per congressmen has never made sense to me. In my class alone, our district sent 9 people to the Academy (granted I didnt have a congressional nom), however I doubt there were only 1-2 candidates from my district that did. When you add up the math it doesn't seem to make that much sense either. If you factor in that each year any given congressman has 1.25 academy slots to fill, it could be estimated that approximately 600 slots are filled in that manner. NAPS contributes approximately 200, bringing the total to 800. There are still 400+ slots to fill. I highly doubt that all 400 are filled with a combination of presidential or vice presidential noms. The Presidential has the potential for alot, but nowhere near the hundreds of appointments needed to fill the gap as all the other nom sources, aka VP, are incredibly limited in the number that they give out.
Keep in mind that these estimates are all in a perfect world in which every congressman is using all, or nearly all of their slots. This doesn't count the states that don't fill their quota or the fact that Maryland literally has a few hundred mids at the Academy. With the current system, I do not see how it is possible to limit the number of MOC slots to 5 and still fill out the congressionally mandated class sizes. Any thoughts???</p>

9

<p>Also, it makes no sense for a congressman to hand out letters of appointment to candidates he has not nominated. If one of those people was not nominated by that particular congressman, what business does he have handling their appointments?</p>

10

<p>
[QUOTE]

More likely though, 1 or 2 of the appointments were made from among his/her nominees who were 3 Qed even if not receiving his/her appointment and then went into the "national" pool and were appointed from that group in which case, your MOC may "claim" them in his PR announcement and indeed may have nominated these candidates even though they did not receive his/her appointment slot. Another possibility may be that the candidates had a presidential or other form of nomination in addition to or in lieu of his/her nomination and they came from his/her district.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Notice what WP said..."national pool"
On average, a MOC has 1 spot per year...sometimes it could be 2 or more.
If you don't get your MOC's nomination (Senators and Congressman) then you go into a nationwide pool. The 9 candidates in a district could all have been appointed because of their location and/or competitiveness. </p>

<p>For example, say Congressman X has only 1 spot...but there are 3 competitive candidates that are high up on the admissions's multiple list (assume the Senators choose 2 other highly competitive candidates), then only 1 of the 3 can get the Congressman's nomination. The other 2 go into the national pool and since they are competitive, they probably will receive appointments. So it is possible to have 9 from a district...demographics do play a factor.</p>

<p>The Congressman represents the district and the country...and since the candidates lives there...why wouldn't it be appropriate? I highly doubt that a senator would handout the appointments to their 2-6 nominees...I am sure the senators have a lot on their plate. It wouldn't make sense for the president/VP to handout the presidential/VP appointments! It honestly makes sense that a Congressman or BGO do it! It is on a lower level.</p>

11

<p>The only other thing to keep in mind is that a nomination from a MOC does not always equate to an appointment....</p>

<p>please don't quote me, but it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3800 nominations of which 1500 gain appointments, to yeild a class size of around 1240- give or take a few....</p>

<p>I think one could drive themselves nuts trying to sort it all out and "figure" the odds....
in the end, what will be will be, and some things are just not in one's control...</p>

<p>so 2012 mom, wishing you well as you and your son navigate this process- it can be dauting at times-
but encourage your son to stay focused on the things that are in his control- grades, SATs, admission paperwork, personal statement, activities, leadership, plans B,C and D, and just plain enjoying his years as a HS student... those things he can impact on, and if done well, the sky is the limit!</p>

<p>Best of luck- and may I say, you got a handle on the whole MOC thing a lot quicker than I did ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
It wouldn't make sense for the president/VP to handout the presidential/VP appointments! It honestly makes sense that a Congressman or BGO do it! It is on a lower level.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>i think they like to keep the big chiefs for the diplomas instead! ;)</p>

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<p>So if what your saying is true, and there is a nationwide pool, then the fact that each congressman has approximately one spot per year is completely inconsequential. Proceeding with this logic, if the only nomination you receive is from your congressman, you really aren't competing just for that one spot, because if you are well qualified with a nomination, there is an outstanding chance that you will get the appointment regardless of the district-wide competition. If this doesn't count towards the congressman's five slots, than the entire process of limiting to five slots is irrelevant. In fact, in some cases in the most competitive districts it is actually tougher to gain a nomination than it is to be offered an appointment... While it is not out of the question that a congressman could potentially give out appointments to anyone from his district that made it into the Academy, I still view it as highly unlikely that he would handle the appointment of someone who he never actually nominated, and would be willing to put money on the fact that he atleast offered nominations to all three of those appointees.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you don't get your MOC's nomination (Senators and Congressman) then you go into a nationwide pool.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I assume by this you meant that if you don't get your MOC's appointment slot, because if you don't get your MOC's nomination or a Presidential or VP one, you won't get the appointment regardless of your high school stats.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
There are still 400+ slots to fill. I highly doubt that all 400 are filled with a combination of presidential or vice presidential noms . . . With the current system, I do not see how it is possible to limit the number of MOC slots to 5 and still fill out the congressionally mandated class sizes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The folks in the national pool who receive appointments are typically allocated to the Secretary of the Navy, the Superintendent, or another source. You can't apply to those sources, but they are used (under the law) to fill out the rest of the class.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The folks in the national pool who receive appointments are typically allocated to the Secretary of the Navy, the Superintendent, or another source. You can't apply to those sources, but they are used (under the law) to fill out the rest of the class.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I've heard that too, however, in my rather rocky road to an appointment, I wrote a letter to the superintendent requesting nomination. In his reply, he stated that while he doesn't give out nominations, he had forwarded my request to the office of the VP. That being said, I have never once met anyone who got in with anything but a MOC or Presidential nomination coming straight out of high school. I can't confirm this, however I was always under the impression that the SecNav noms were given to priors and Napsters. All this being said, I am sure there were classmates of mine with other noms, but I never heard about it. It seems terribly small in its scope to account for a few hundred bodies... Another interesting point is that when nomination interviews came up for my district, there were either four or five candidates from the district that already had LOAs. So with LOAs in hand these candidates were already a part of the class as soon as they were given noms (which was automatic at the congressional level) and passed medically. So basically under this system they would be given a token nomination from some random source just to protect the "sanctity" of the five slot system. While this national pool exists as a possibility, there are still too many things that make absolutely no sense for this to exist as it is explained. From close scrutiny and an incredibly detailed indoctrination into the sytem during my senior year, I have come under the impression that the theory of the "five slots" per MOC exists on paper, however, it does not appear to be used at all in practice.</p>

<p>-I realize I jump around and this post and its probably not the best example of making a clear and concise argument, however, like I stated earlier, too many things just don't appear to make sense in this system</p>

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<p>
[quote]
" ... if the only nomination you receive is from your congressman, you really aren't competing just for that one spot, because if you are well qualified with a nomination, there is an outstanding chance that you will get the appointment regardless of the district-wide competition."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes Sylvester, your observations are understandable, and those can be very big "if's." Think of it this way with a few different scenarios. All will assume that nominees are 3Qed, essential for an appointment (but not nomination).</p>

<p>With the principal nomination of an MOC, offer of appointment is essentially guaranteed. If it is accepted, the remaining 9 may potentially be added to the national pool.</p>

<p>If that appointment is declined, then the remaining 9 will be competing for that specific MOC slot either in ranked order (#2 gets offer, #3 would be next, etc.) OR unranked and the USNA offers appointment to that individual they deem the best candidate. (This could be method as well for all 10.) </p>

<p>In any case, at this point one is competing with 9, 8, or potentially zero others for that one slot. All are from your district.</p>

<p>However, once that slot is allocated, the remainder then go into that national pool where the competition is much greater, and in fact could be much stiffer than even your district competion despite the fact that all there in failed to receive their MOC or Senators' slotted offer of appointment. For example, the remainding as yet unappointed candidates from many VA and MD going into the national pool may be far stronger candidates than principal appointees from either their own district or the more likely scenario, than candidates already appointed from more sparsely populated states. </p>

<p>So, when you say it's not relevant and that one can receive an appointment once a nomination is received may be essentially accurate and true. However, which would you prefer to be competing among? 1 of 1 as a principal nominee from your MOC or Sen; 1 of 10 nominees; 1 of 9 (or perhaps fewer depending upon how many 3Qed additional nominees are made for your MOC's slot); or 1 of many hundreds of 3Qed nominees from throughout the nation? I know what the most relevant and desirable would be for me.</p>

<p>2 other variables to consider ... the national pool appointments are for the remaining, smaller,and dwindling slots in a class appointed on a rolling basis with the vast majority of appointments already made or pledged since among the national pool candidates, remember that LOAs will be pulled out first, further diminishing the potential. Picture this ... there are now 800 nationally and presumably highly qualified and ranked candidates competing for now only 50 slots.</p>

<p>Again, yes it's possible that once a nom is received that a candidate may be appointed even if NOT receiving the MOC slot ... but the chances/odds escalate astronomically. :(</p>

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<p>
[quote]
That being said, I have never once met anyone who got in with anything but a MOC or Presidential nomination coming straight out of high school. I can't confirm this, however I was always under the impression that the SecNav noms were given to priors and Napsters

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First, folks coming out of high school do indeed get slotted to entities other than MOCs, the Pres and VP. </p>

<p>Second, let me try to clarify this issue. Most mids have NO idea to what entity they are slotted (MOC, President, VP, SecNav, etc.). If you were a principal nominee for a MOC, then it's a pretty good bet you were slotted to that MOC. Kids of MOH winners obviously go to that pool. However, in most cases, you really don't know.</p>

<p>For example, I received a MOC nom (MOC did not do principals and did not rank) and a Presidential nom. I could have been allocated/slotted to either of those entities or thrown into the national pool and slotted to SecNav or someone else. I never knew; still don't. And, more importantly, it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.</p>

<p>All that matters to you is whether or not you get the appointment. The entity to whom you are allocated is relevant only to USNA, which must comply with the law in terms of allocation. </p>

<p>Candidates should concern themselves with getting as many noms as possible b/c that makes it easier for USNA to find a place for you. "Whose place" that is really irrelevant as long as you have one.</p>

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<p>^^^^^I would add to that 240+ "napsters" and 60-80 "foundation" students that "have seats in the upcoming class" (abet, pending successful completion of their programs)....</p>

<p>the foundation students are required to obtain another nomination for their entering year (aside from the origonal nomination to the year they applied and were offered foundation option)..... and since they "already have a seat" it is highly unlikely they will not be afforded another nod from their MOC.... (and if, for some reason, they fail to gain a nomination from their available sources, the foundation folks work with them to obtain a nomination from another source....???national pool??? )....</p>

<p>I am not sure about NAPS and if they require another nomination....
perhaps a former NAPSTER can chime in....</p>

<p>
[quote]
All that matters to you is whether or not you get the appointment.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>that hits the nail on the head.</p>

<p>focusing on anything other than making yourself the best candidate you possibly can (by that I mean SATs, GPA, course work, leadership, ECA's, etc) is, IMHO, a waste of time and energy.<br>
There are certain givens.
Securing a nomination is competetive.
Appointment to any academy takes that competition to the next level.
Not all who succeed with the first will gain the second.
Putting all your energy into making yourself the best candidate is the only thing in your control.
The rest is out of your hands.
Do your best and hope for the best.
Have back-up plans in place....several of them. Do not put all your eggs into one basket.
Lastly, do not give up. If this is what you want, let nothing stop you- if unsuccessful the first go-around, toss that hat into the arena for the following class....many do....</p>

<p>best of luck to all-
and congrats to those who are willing to venture down this path in the first place- you are already winners in my book! ;)</p>

18

<p>Re: NAPS nominations</p>

<p>NAPSters are encouraged to apply for a MOC nomination, but I believe they receive Sec'y of Navy nom's if they don't get a MOC nod. My son grad'd from NAPS '07 and received nom's from our congresswoman both years. </p>

<p>(Until now, I hadn't thought much about how different last year's app was from the h.s. one. I didn't think I was overly involved in the original process, but now I have to marvel about how incredibly independent son became during his NAPS year.)</p>

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<p>^^^ thanks for clarifying the NAPs nomination issue- suspected they needed another nomination, but wasn't sure if it was the same process as that for the foundation kids.</p>

<p>As I recall, the foundation kids were not required to submitt a new application- they were encouraged to "update" their file with any eca's and grades..... and much of that was through the foundation's BGO....who also took the files before the admissions board for final review. A lot of weight was placed on the teacher recommendations from the foundation school, which were extensive and very, very thorough. </p>

<p>Our son also was fortunate in that 2 of the 3 MOC's to which he applied had retained his application from the previous year (he had received 3 noms that year to 3 academies from 2 moc's)....so all they required was an update to his file and an interview with the senators office again (which was done over the phone at his foundation school).</p>

<p>It is amazing what an extra year of "prep" can do in terms of maturity-
we saw much growth in our son as well, and I believe it made the transition to the USNA easier in the long run.... coming in straight post-HS can be tough for many-</p>

20

<p>I'm interested in experiences with the Foundation schools. As we look at the list there are many options. If S enjoys Marching Band, Riflery, Running - does anyone have experience with specific schools? Anywhere he goes will be away from home.</p>

<p>Ideas on how to narrow down the choices and increase chances of success in the prep year to continue on to USNA class of 2012?</p>