Question about Tufts granting SMFA degrees

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tufts University
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<p>JacksonMom: I don't recall anyone saying that artists are academically inferiour. In fact, I do recall snarking at the idea that Tufts could not attract academically capable artists and thus "needs" to admit students via the back door. </p>

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Your assertions that SMFA students couldn't get into Tufts has not been backed up with any concrete facts. Just because someone chooses to go to art school does not mean that they couldn't get into a selective college.

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There are several million high school seniors every year. Only 16,000 of them apply to Tufts. According to your logic, most of them could get in; they just don't choose to apply. You conflate possibility with probability; lack of obvious inability, derived from anecdotes, to widespread ability. </p>

<p>There is nothing to say that I can't dunk a basketball. However, anyone who asserts my ability to do so shouldn't get his panties in a twist if someone wants to put me in a dunking contest. Babe, you can't have it both ways, stating that artists are intelligent creatures whose special abilities don't shine on the SAT, and then stating that they are equally as intelligent and it's only elitism that prevents us from wanting to share our degrees.</p>

<p>If there are 100-200 SMFA students, that's the size of the engineering school. Again, why not establish a third admissions system? The fact that it is not immediately obvious to you (although it is to me) how Tufts would evaluate such students does not mean that I'm an elitist snob; it only means that human ingenuity is needed to implement the idea.</p>

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If you didn't like the fact that Tufts issues diplomas to SMFA students then you didn't have to go to Tufts.

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That is patently ridiculous. Are you implying that one should not attend a university unless one finds it the paragon of perfection? Also, did you not read the part of the thread where curernt Tufts students stated that they were, until recently, unaware of the policy? Should students be required to know everything about their universities before even sending in an application? </p>

<p>If you are a mother, I imagine that you went to college during the Vietnam years. Are you seriously saying that students should not question decisions made by their universities? Your diploma is from Jackson. Until recently, female students applied to Tufts, were admitted to Tufts, and were handed Jackson diplomas. It was the on-campus discussion and work by Tufts students that changed a policy that they found to be undesirable. Why are we denied the same now? </p>

<p>There are some of us, for reasons other than snobby crazy elitism, who do not think that the current system is rational. The fact that the system is so irrational is revealed when its only defence is ad hominem attacks.</p>

<hr>

<p>Snuffles: my life is less crazy now. :) I am sorry that we never touched base. Was that October of last year?</p>

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<p>Their area of expertise is studio art, not art history. My own daughter has not been that thrilled with taking the survey art history courses. (They have to take five of them btw.)They don't necessarily cover the art that she is interested in. I took one art history course when I was at Tufts with Dr. Caviness and it was the toughest course I took. I got a C+. I was an English major so you would think that I would have done better. It wasn't that I didn't work hard, I just had no clue how to analyze a piece of art.</p>

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<p>Ariesathena: You're fab. And yes, coffee would be nice, sure. Curious to see those Jumbo get-ups (earrings!)...</p>

<p>Anyway to the rest of you; I love that we're having this discussion. Thank you.</p>

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<p>I never said that most high school seniors could get into Tufts, so don't put words in my mouth. I said that you don't know how many of the students who were admitted to the SMFA could have gotten into Tufts if they had wanted. My daughter went to a private arts high school. She had many friends who were highly intelligent who could have gotten into selective LAC's, but chose to go to art school. You could probably fill Tufts with intelligent, highly artistic students, but you wouldn't have a diverse student population.</p>

<p>What would be the purpose of establishing an independent art school at Tufts other than assuaging your elitist concerns? It would cost Tufts an enormous amount to duplicate the facilities of the SMFA. I highly doubt there is additional room on campus for an art building. Then you would have to hire all the additional faculty. It's a far better solution to send your art students to the SMFA and return the favor by letting a small number of SMFA students attend some of your academic classes.</p>

<p>What is patently ridiculous is that you think you should change a system that has worked for many years because you think your diploma is in some way demeaned. </p>

<p>What is so unfair about admitting students to Tufts based on artistic talent?
Students are admitted at many colleges based on their talents, artistic, musical, athletic. Some of these students are in the lower range of the universities SAT and GPA scores. Colleges have leeway to find students that will enhance their school despite scores. Not everyone is admitted to college based only on their grades and SAT's/</p>

<p>By the way, if current Tufts students are unaware of the policies regarding Tufts diplomas, it's because they didn't read all of the information about the school on their website. It's all there.</p>

<p>Also, when I attended Tufts, Jackson College was a ghost. It semi-existed in name only. The degrees were all conferred by Tufts.</p>

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<p>I certainly would never say that students shouldn't question their universities'
policies, but this is not a moral or policy issue. It is an economic issue. Tufts benefits by adding many courses, teachers and facilities by joining up with the SMFA. They're getting a lot from their relationship with the SMFA. They have to give something back. What they give back is the diplomas to the SMFA students. </p>

<p>If you are really so concerned about this issue, then bring it up with President Bacow. I am sure that he will be able to defend the university's decision on this matter. I highly doubt they will change their position since this relationship has been entrenched over so many years.</p>

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<p>
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Would you all feel better if all the art students came through the admission's office of Tufts and submitted their portfolio and had the same GPAs and SATs needed now in the SMFA? Why would that be any different?

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TaxGuy, I'll assume by your screen name that you're either an accountant or a lawyer-type (latter defined broadly). So let me make an analogy.</p>

<p>Imagine that a group of tax filers (for fun, let's say teachers) were allowed to submit their taxes without a W-2 form attached. The theory was that they would be honest about their earnings. For years, this goes on, is justified under the theory that it benefits everyone; teachers are overworked, not doing the W2s saves the state money, etc.</p>

<p>If other taxpayers, who are required to fill out W-2s, complained, they would not necessarily be anti-government or anti-teacher or anti-union. If the IRS implemented a rule that said, sorry, teachers, you have to submit W2s, one of two things would happen:
1) Difference between real earnings and reported earnings would be enough to justify the expense; or
2) Same results (or similar enough so as to wonder what the fuss was about).</p>

<p>Here's the kicker: BOTH results are favourable and EITHER outcome justifies the new rule. The former, on its face, is enough to justify the new policy: these people were getting away with murder! The latter one justifies the policy for a different, although still valid, reason: the added transparency gives credence to the entire process. Taxpayers do not think that they are being snowed; there aren't wild rumours running around and people trying to decide if a tax-cheat teacher is typical of all teachers or merely akin to the normal tax cheats out there. There is an economic and psychological value to transparency and consistent quality. </p>

<p>Likewise, even if the SMFA students applied through Tufts and the same ones were picked, I think it would be worth it. At that point, their peers do not begrudge them their diplomas; outside sources who are familiar with the system know the value of the diploma was backed by a rigourous academic admissions process; their diplomas are not artificially inflated, nor their liberal art's companions diplomas artificially devalued by outsiders who conflate the different admissions standards.</p>

<p>This is the basis, FYI, of trademark law. A university diploma is essentially a trademark on an education; the theory of trademarks is not that they guarantee good quality, but are shorthand for consistent quality. It would be a foolish company that used its trademark to denote both Consumer-Reports tested and approved products and confusingly similar, unevaluated products.</p>

<p>Breaking it down again:</p>

<p>Type-> apply to-> coursework-> diploma
Engineers-> engineering -> engin. reqs-> engineering (BS_E)
BS/BA -> arts & sci -> normal Tufts reqs -> liberal arts/BS/BA
studio art-> MSFA-> SMFA -> liberal arts/BFA</p>

<p>Huh? It just isn't consistent! I fail to see how pointing this absurdity out makes me an anti-art, elitist snob who should be grateful to commingle with the artists but who instead is mean and spiteful.</p>

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<p>I respect you, even if I don't agree with you. :-)</p>

<p>I hope your boyfriend has been enjoying the combined degree program. I know my daughter has. It's a good program for students who are talented academically and artistically. </p>

<p>Just don't think that the kids from the SMFA are from another planet.
I know some of them look different, but it's good for you to get to know kids that are different from you. When you're older you'll look back on this and you will be glad that you were exposed to many different types of people at college. That's what the administration wants for you, you know. :-)
They want you to grow in many ways.</p>

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<p>Ah, so you're an engineer? My husband has a BSEE and MSEE from Tufts and is also a musician and artist.</p>

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<p>
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I said that you don't know how many of the students who were admitted to the SMFA could have gotten into Tufts if they had wanted.

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</p>

<p>See, this is the whole point. No one knows if they ~could~ have gotten into Tufts, because they didn't apply to Tufts. A different measurement was used for these students. And maybe using different criteria, they are as wonderful, or even more wonderful than Tufts students, but whatever it is that is used to decide to admit students to Tufts was not applied to the Art students.</p>

<p>I don't find that elitest at all. It's like passing a test to drive a car and then giving someone a license to drive a truck. They're two different things. And we can argue whether art students are smarter, more hardworking, etc etc, but that's not the point. If it's so hard to get an art degree from SMFA, why doesn't the degree say SMFA on it? Shouldn't it speak for itself?</p>

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<p>If Tufts is granting SMFA diplomas, they can certainly nose around in admissions. You know, by asking for a secondary review of apps to ensure that the students are up to par. Or, you know, by putting "Tufts University School of Fine Arts" on the diploma, kind of like how my diploma reads, "Tufts University School of Engineering" because I neither applied to nor did the coursework for the liberal arts college. Last time I checked, NEITHER one is expensive, requires Tufts to make new facilities on campus, or any other nonsense.</p>

<p>
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Also, when I attended Tufts, Jackson College was a ghost. It semi-existed in name only. The degrees were all conferred by Tufts.

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Well, babe, until 2002, women got degrees from the Jackson College of Tufts University. I assume that said system was only changed to assauge the elitist concerns of the female students who wanted identical diplomas to their male students.</p>

<p>I'm an engineer who double-majored in liberal arts (humanities major), and wrote for the poetry mag. I wasn't unusual; many of my engineer friends had l.a. majors or minors in addition to their engineering degrees.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure who said you were whining about URM's. I didn't say that.</p>

<p>Kids at the Museum School pay the same tuition as the kids at Tufts. They do not have dorms after the first year, so it might seem cheaper because you have to pay your own room and board. The Museum School does give out merit scholarships btw. So that is one reason to apply there and not to the combined degree program. There are no merit scholarships for art talent for the combined degree students.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry but you're wrong. I just looked at my Tufts diploma which was issued in 1976. There is no mention of Jackson College on it, merely Universitatis Tuftensis, signed by Burton Hallowell by the way.</p>

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<p>Obviously, something changed between 1976 and the late 90s.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.tuftsdaily.com/media/storage/paper856/news/2000/09/01/UndefinedSection/A.Sexist.Degree.Debacle-1487360.shtml?norewrite200612110137&sourcedomain=www.tuftsdaily.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tuftsdaily.com/media/storage/paper856/news/2000/09/01/UndefinedSection/A.Sexist.Degree.Debacle-1487360.shtml?norewrite200612110137&sourcedomain=www.tuftsdaily.com&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.tuftsdaily.com/media/storage/paper856/news/2000/09/01/UndefinedSection/Jackson.College.Concern.Is.Legitimate-1487347.shtml?norewrite200612110139&sourcedomain=www.tuftsdaily.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tuftsdaily.com/media/storage/paper856/news/2000/09/01/UndefinedSection/Jackson.College.Concern.Is.Legitimate-1487347.shtml?norewrite200612110139&sourcedomain=www.tuftsdaily.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I refuse to stand corrected... being right and all.</p>

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<p>The grades to pass courses at the SMFA are no different than the grades to pass courses at Tufts. Therefore if you pass your courses, you are entitled to your diploma. It's not like the SMFA is Tufts lite and the kids are cut a break on grades or anything.</p>

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<p>Likewise, the grades to pass my humanities/social sciences reqs were the same as those for liberal arts students, but they gave us different diplomas. We have hugely different core requirements and were admitted under different standards to different schools. Ergo, different diplomas, although still under the banner of "Tufts University."</p>

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<p>Should I fax you my diploma?</p>

<p>That article in the Daily News may not be correct.</p>

<p>I have no idea when Tufts officially got rid of the Jackson name, but they haven't been issuing Jackson College diplomas in many, many decades.</p>

<p>I remember seeing a similar argument about Radcliffe and Harvard.
Just because the college is using the name of the female college doesn't mean they issued diplomas in this name.</p>

<p>Most of the female colleges like Jackson, Radcliffe, Pembroke (Brown) etc, started to get phased out in the 70's. These colleges were female in name only and didn't mean anything. There weren't separate dorms, classes or anything else. </p>

<p>I guess the only remnant of Jackson is the Jackson Jills.</p>

<p>My husband also started off in a five year BSEE/BA program until one of his professors told him it made more sense for him to just get his master's degree.
He is now affiliated with the people who gave Tufts their newest dorm.</p>

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<p>Well, should I fax you my friend's diplomas to prove that they WERE giving them out during the 90s? Do you really think it impossible that Tufts changed things between 1976 and, say, 1990? </p>

<p>Considering that a TUFTS PROFESSOR refuted the Daily article (see second link) and stated that it was not discriminatory to give out different diplomas, do you really think that he is wrong, too? That everyone who is actually there and complained about this is confused?</p>

<p>--
I did my degree in four years. I didn't want to do the five-year thing - no point in paying $40,000 extra tuition.</p>

<p>--
Scroll back a few pages. Someone mentions differential tuition.</p>

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<p>Obviously Tufts trusts that the admissions office at the SMFA is not going to accept students that can't handle the courses at Tufts. It would not benefit the SMFA to have their students flunk courses at Tufts and then be ineligible for their degrees. </p>

<p>It's a reciprocity arrangement. The SMFA doesn't ask to see your portfolio in order for you to take art classes with their talented students. ;-)</p>

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<p>No, I don't think it's impossible that Tufts changed the diplomas. I can only tell you what the diploma looked like in 1976. It said Tufts on it, not Jackson.</p>

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<p>But the SMFA isn't giving me a degree.</p>