<p>DD applied last year to several colleges. She was accepted at RPI among others, and waitlisted at Washington University of St Louis, among others. She was not accepted off the WL. She chose to enroll at RPI, which among other positives, offered her a generous FA package including both merit scholarships, need based grants, and federal loans, which will make attendance affordable for us. We put down our deposit.</p>
<p>She also chose to attend a gap year in Israel we had discussed for some time. She asked RPI for a deferment, and they agreed.</p>
<p>In our last call to DD, DW and DD discussed the possibility of DD applying again to WUSTL. I am not sure at who's initiative, but I think it was DW. DW appears to think that DD could have had better results had she applied ED (she did not apply ED anywhere last year - aside from my concerns about finances, she simply was not in a position to meet the ED deadlines). They discussed applying ED this time (with her common app essay already done, making the deadline should be easy).</p>
<p>I do not know the rules or standards for this - A. Applying to a college while on a gap year with a deposit already down on another college B. Commitment based on ED -in the event WUSTL accepted her, she would be committed to withdraw from RPI? Can you even apply ED in this situation? C. Financial aid - I understand if you get a financial aid package that causes hardship, you can withdraw from your ED commitment. I do not know how this works, or if it would be different in this situation. My sense is that its not easy to get out of the commitment, and that the definition of financial hardship for this purpose might not be the same as ours. </p>
<p>I have emailed DD (copying in DW) telling her to not apply ED until we have cleared this up - their ED deadline is Nov 15, so she has some time.</p>
<p>First of all, a deferral is a tacit agreement that you plan to go somewhere the next year and are only not attending because of some other commitment (like the gap year) Putting down your deposit further seals the deal; it’s a little bit unethical to defer at one school (which is essentially a promise to attend) and then apply to another in the interim. Nevertheless, it’s much like putting down a deposit at any other college and not deferring - there’s nothing that the school can do to stop you; they will probably keep your deposit but that’s it. (Unless you signed an enrollment contract with other terms. I’d look into that.)</p>
<p>Second of all, the utility of ED admissions are debatable. Most colleges say that everyone in their ED admit pool would’ve gotten in RD anyway, and they explain high ED admissions rates by indicating that the ED pool is largely a self-selecting pool - a driven, ambitious pool of top students who had the initiative to not only decide where they wanted to go but apply early as well. Nevertheless, CC seemed convinced that ED gives you a boost in admissions, and perhaps it does. That said, the wisdom is always passed that you shouldn’t apply ED in situations in which you aren’t sure if you can afford the choice. ED isn’t designed to be an admissions booster that easy to get out of. But, the same as the deferment - very few schools will force a student who doesn’t want to go to their school to go, and there have been accounts of people getting out of ED contracts rather scot-free. I’ve heard the consequences may be borne by your daughter’s high school - they may not accept ED candidates if they have a reputation for backing out - but since she took a gap year I’m not even sure that’s applicable.</p>
<p>Which would bring me to my point of…how settled was she with the idea of going to RPI? Was she very unhappy and really desiring to go to WUSTL, or was she content and planning on attending? If she was unhappy about it and really, really wanted to go to WUSTL I might take the gamble. You, personally, have very little to lose (although I’m not sure if RPI can find out if you applied ED somewhere else; you might lose her spot, but I think that’s unlikely). In 95% of situations though I’d say she should just honor her commitment and attend RPI.</p>
<p>I actually think that if she gets into WUSTL this time it would be less a result of applying early and more about the maturity and experiences her gap year has given her. On the one hand I hate going back on my word at RPI, on the other I do think that a gap year can change a kid sufficiently that you have a bit of an excuse. Anecdotally, students I’ve heard of that reapplied to schools during a gap year got the same results the second time around.</p>
<p>DD was and IS looking forward to going to RPI. Given the choice, and money not an issue, she would prefer Wash U, but she was happy with RPI. Again, I am not sure what prompted this - I think she has been socializing on the gap year with kids from more selective colleges, and this reminded DW of her earlier thoughts (which she had forgotten) that reapplying could make it possible to get in to WUSTL this time, whether because of ED or because of the gap year experience. DW is very sold on the ED boost idea “why do so many kids apply ED if its not a good idea?” We had some very intense, shall we say “Discussions” at this time last year about ED. I basically said “well those families are in a different financial situation than we are”. As it happens DW likes RPI more than the school that DD would have applied to ED, had she applied ED, so DW was reconciled to regular admissions. DW was pushing for ED more out of senior year panic “what if she doesnt get in anywhere?” “what if she has to go to (fill in name of marginally acceptable safety school here)?” (note, this is a gifted but ADHD kid, so the usual you can succeed anywhere does not apply - we knew she needed challenge to not be bored, and to fit in socially, but also that her GPA excluded many otherwise suitable schools - and yes, the ADHD, imo, makes RPI a better choice than WUSTL, which would be a crash and burn risk - but thats another question, not what I want to address in this thread)</p>
<p>“That said, the wisdom is always passed that you shouldn’t apply ED in situations in which you aren’t sure if you can afford the choice.”</p>
<p>I think this is false wisdom. If one had to be sure, no one needing financial aid could apply ED, because there is no way to be sure (though the calculators can help). This is one of the reasons that some schools have dropped ED; applicants needing FA have been made falsely fearful that there is some “danger” in applying ED needing FA. There are hundreds (thousands?) of students every year who ignore this imagined danger and get workable ED FA packages.</p>
<p>“My sense is that its not easy to get out of the commitment, and that the definition of financial hardship for this purpose might not be the same as ours.”</p>
<p>It is easy; you say thanks but no thanks. Imagine if it weren’t, if the school somehow had to “approve” the withdrawal, and for some reason wouldn’t, and somehow compelled a student to attend, who would then be expelled when the EFC couldn’t be paid. There’s a reason no one has ever heard of such a thing happening. The FA formulas schools use are general and standard; not every family fits the mold, and schools know this.</p>
<p>Here is the rule from the Common App (not all schools use it):
<p>If you question this regarding a particular school, call the FA office and ask them if they ever force someone to attend who can’t afford the ED FA package. Also ask if there are any consequences as a result of turning down an ED FA package that is unaffordable.</p>
<p>BTW, no one at RPI would care if she changed her mind; schools expect some amount a gap year melt, and don’t want someone to feel compelled to attend who doesn’t really want to be there. RPI will just add one to their desired yield calculation, and admit more who really want to be there.</p>
<p>And BTW, I’m not suggesting any particular course of action.</p>
<p>“Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible”</p>
<p>So lets say we receive a package that is federal loans only, and the rest of the difference between EFC and COA is offered as PLUS loans. Would they call that “making attendance possible”. Cause you know it might be, but would be a far worse situation for us than her attending RPI. Additionaly she is pursuing architecture - RPI is offering aid over 5 years, which is how long a B Arch takes. Wash U’s arch program is an unaccredited 4 year BS in Arch, so she would still need a two year Masters, which would have to be paid for somehow. Unless she switches majors (which she shows no signs of wanting to do) we would actually need a MORE generous FA package from Wash U to make it equivalent to RPI, I think. </p>
<p>“Would they call that “making attendance possible”.”</p>
<p>Schools don’t say one way or the other; they just make an offer based on a standard formula (for aid), and on the student’s record (for merit, if any). Only the family can decide if the package makes attendance possible.</p>
<p>I would want to be very very sure that RPI wouldn’t rescind your daughter if they found out what was going on. She’s already very identifiable (just how many gap year in Israel kids is RPI planning on matriculating next year?). I’d also want to be very very sure that WUStL wouldn’t have a problem with the situation. </p>
<p>Final concern is the psychology of having this discussion when your D is halfway around the world, especially if your D wasn’t the one to bring up the topic. This is a tough conversation to have under any circumstances, but especially tough with a huge time difference between the conversing parties and a three-week-deadline. Not to mention that you already have many many excellent reasons why the proposed school isn’t a good idea and why ED isn’t a good idea.</p>
<p>“I would want to be very very sure that RPI wouldn’t rescind your daughter if they found out what was going on.”</p>
<p>My nightmare. She ends up with neither RPI nor WUSTL, and has to start everything all over again, with nothing in hand. (I am not saying I am not concerned about the ethical issue vis a vis RPI, but as a dad my greatest anxiety is for my daughter)</p>
<p>Cognitive Dissonance, Buyer’s Remorse, call it what you will but they’re giving out Nobel Prizes these days for economists who can figure out why a rational decision-maker goes nut-so when faced with a choice. Whether the brand of toothpaste, the color of your new car, or whether to buy a lottery ticket, the calculus of decision-making is still part art, part science.</p>
<p>BB- I’ve read your tale with interest. I know a lot of kids who sound just like your D… except that most of them are boys-- so I think her “story” is very cool. I don’t know your family so this is all idle speculation to me, so here goes.</p>
<p>Tell your wife that putting in an application to WUSTL without FIRST declining the offer from RPI is just unethical, even if it’s technically allowed. Many of the Yeshiva high schools and Jewish day schools will not process a transcript to an additional college while a kid is on a gap year unless the kid withdraws from the intended college first. They claim its ethics-- it’s actually just pragmatic business for them. If 3 kids from the Solomon Shechter in Chicago accept an offer from U Penn, then go on Gap year to Israel, then magically end up at Cornell or Yale or Harvard, that pretty much screws next years seniors whose admissions chances to Penn just went from slim to zero. And so the schools don’t allow the practice to protect their reputations, and to protect next year’s seniors.</p>
<p>This probably doesn’t apply in your case since I think the number of Gap year kids at RPI is relatively small and the number of kids who apply from your HS while not small is probably not huge. Nonetheless, I would claim the ethical high road here with your wife because I think you will flush out her real issue, which has nothing to do with RPI, and most likely everything to do with the normal human regret of having to shut the door on an option which might have, could have, should have been available but was not. Ye Olde Groucho Marx syndrome.</p>
<p>My prediction is that the issue will die with your daughter once your wife lets it go. And your D is probably too focused on her day-to-day activities now to really be wishing in her heart that she were going to WashU. If she gets to RPI and hates it, that’s the time to talk about putting in another application. But if I’m wrong and your D is the one who is genuninely regretting the road not taken, she’ll bring it up again and will find a way to make the application happen.</p>
<p>I think the financial issues with ED pale in comparison to the other issues. Seriously. But you can do some poking around and get a sense of how much aid people tend to get from WUStL. If it doesn’t look like it’s going to be anywhere near what you need, then you can back off.</p>
<p>As long as I’m offering advice, I’d also suggest that you and your wife make a pact about how you deal with major issues with your daughter this year. Take the discussion offline. If something comes up during a phone call, tell your daughter that it’s something that is going to require a thoughtful response. Then take your time before coming up with a response. Make sure you the parents are both on the same page. blossom has nailed the real issue.</p>
<p>ADHD kids, not surprisingly, often have ADHD parents. DD has the genes on both sides, IMO, though DW and I sometimes express it differently. So sometimes things are said on impulse. DW DID listen to my concerns last night after getting off the phone, and took them seriously. </p>
<p>Yes, blossom is right, it is usual buyers remorse - DW and I are somewhat opposite on that -for me once a decision is made, I dive into the chosen alternative, and don’t look back (unless and until something bad happens that triggers regret) DW tends reexamine every already made decision. Add to that, DW has (of necessity) become something of an expert on Twice Exceptionality - Giftedness combined with LD (in this case the executive function aspect of ADHD is an LD) Her motto is “dont feed the LD and neglect the giftedness” which in her opinion (and she is persuasive) the mainstream ADHD community tends to do. So she is very much afraid of passing on a more challenging program that DD could swing (which has happened at times in the past to DD, and results did not benefit her). </p>
<p>However DW would not want to endanger the RPI admission (the word recission would throw her into a tizzy) and she is conscious of the financial issues, at least when I remind her.</p>
<p>“number of kids who apply from your HS while not small is probably not huge.”</p>
<p>each year from 3 to 5 or so apply, and afaict, on average one matriculates. RPI has a VERY hard time competing with VTech for TJ students (those who dont qualify for MIT, Ivies, CMU, UVA,etc ) DD, with her issues, didnt want to go to a school the size of VTech, and we supported her, but not many TJ kids make the same decision.</p>
<p>By the way, I don’t think there is any way your daughter is going to find RPI “too easy”. It has a fine architecture program with an excellent reputation in this part of the woods (around here no one would choose VTech over RPI, not saying it’s better or worse, I think they are probably quite similar.) Architecture is a notoriously difficult major wherever you go. I did it for grad school and can say that I have never, ever, ever worked so hard in my life.</p>
<p>I agree with Blossom on the ethical issues btw.</p>
<p>VTech has been hitting top 5 in the Design Intelligence rankings of Arch programs lately, vs RPI around 18 or 19, for whatever thats worth (I have heard the DI rankings are worth rather less than the USNWR rankings) But VTech is supposed to be a cut throat program, I am hoping RPI is not.</p>
<p>Of course most TJ kids looking at those schools are looking for engineering rather than Arch (or comp sci at RPI, or a range of things at VTech). Anyway, the big appeal of VTech is the price tag. </p>
<p>We are aware of that Arch in general is challenging. When DW is thinking of Wash U as a higher challenge, she is, I think, overlooking the extent to which DD will be focused in studio. Not that the rest of RPI is easy, of course.</p>
<p>I myself am a habitue of the road not taken so I can relate to your wife. Fortunately, I am surrounded by H, kids, boss, etc. who throw their hats over the wall and are then forced to climb over to retrieve them… so my natural inclination to visit and revisit has been tempered.</p>
<p>I have no idea if your D will love or just tolerate RPI. But there isn’t any information that you’ve given us to suggest that your D has had an actual change of heart, or even that your wife has new information. So if it’s going to be a rehash of last year’s angst, my suggestion is to let your D enjoy her year, start at RPI, and then figure it out.</p>
<p>And for the record (East coast bias showing) I cannot imagine a kid not finding RPI challenging enough- regardless of the discipline. Your D may not like the weather, the food, the social life- but I have never heard of a kid who didn’t find the academics as bracing as they come!!!</p>
<p>I would check the CDS of WUStL to see how many were wait listed, how many got off the waitlist.</p>
<p>Also, did RPI tell you the package they gave your D would be the same after her GAP year, or do you have to redo FA application? I know kids who took a GAP year and had to refile, not for merit, but other FA.</p>
<p>I know your question on this thread is about rules and standards…but what is the real reason she wants to switch? And…how influential are the financial aspects of attending RPI? I know everyone hates it when these threads turn into “deeper meaning” analysis…but your OP and subsequent posts bring up potential issues beyond your initial questions.</p>
<p>If you will not be able to afford to send your child to Wash U, the ED application will just be further torture after last year’s WL. If the finances won’t work (or will require sacrifices you’re unwilling to make…no judgment intended here…just being practical) then it would be ill advised to put in the effort required to get everything together…from abroad…by Nov 15.</p>
<p>If you can make the finances work for Wash U, or a similar school , is it possible the reduced year to get her degree (if she stays with Arch.) and the finances have overshadowed some of the less tangible aspects of college life and student body that may be of interest to your D? </p>
<p>You mentioned that, on her gap year, D is socializing with kids from more selective colleges. Since your daughter went to technical HS and is planning on attending a technical college, I’m just wondering if the issue is not so much kids from more selective colleges, but kids from non-technical (or not solely technical) colleges. </p>
<p>I know that every kid at a technical school is not the same…and she could possibly find her “tribe” at a school like RPI…but, if the diverse interests, backgrounds, thought processes etc. of the kids she’s with now make her think she would like a school with students with more academic diversity…it’s a probably a good thing to reconsider her decision.</p>
<p>The logistical, financial and ethical issues remain. But, if she thinks she would be happier at a school with a more academically broadly based student body – then it might be a mistake to send her to RPI…or any school like RPI.</p>
<p>The RPI program is great and the merit aid is great. (Would it help if she thought about what her options would be if RPI did not end up being a good fit for her?)</p>