<p>I hope it is okay that I am posting this here. I am a parent, but not with a child of a college bound student...yet. I have a daughter who is about to start MS next year. I'm trying to figure out what to do with her course selection. She has qualified for advanced placement in Math and in English. I have heard different arguments about allowing her to move forward with those courses or signing a waiver to pull her out and place her in grade level math. I am not even sure I understand what the implications are, but I have heard that if your child doesn't make advanced in MS then they are behind the game in 9th grade...meaning that they are not able to take certain classes because they haven't had the pre-requisite yet. I am guessing that this has to do with Algebra 1 vs. being ahead of that in 9th (algebra 2?). Other people say that MS is hard enough socially and that the advanced placement does not really help anything, but actually adds more pressure to an already stressful experience. They've pointed out that the advanced track has you taking calculus too early and when college comes around you will have forgotten it. HELP! What really matters here? Will her course selection in MS really have that much of an affect on
her HS placement? It seems silly, I know, but potentially what we decide going forward could have big implications. Anyone willing to give us some advice?</p>
<p>This is really hard to answer without knowing a lot more about the school. I think in general it’s best for kids to be at a level that challenges them, as opposed to being bored in a class that’s too basic. But you need to look at things like how many kids are accelerated, what effect it has on the rest of the schedule, what the sequence will be in high school, etc.</p>
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Yes, if she does not have the pre-reqs from MS then she will not be able to move on in HS. Potentially she could be stuck in a low-level course for some time. If you (or she) feel that her social life is more important than her coursework, then that is a choice that you will both have to discuss and make.</p>
<p>EDIT: I’m a HS student, not a parent…feel free to disregard my advice :p</p>
<p>OK, I’ll bite. I’ve had one child of each - one who took every advanced class available, and one who qualified for nothing and had to be waivered INTO advanced courses.
The three things that are important are your child (no one knows that child any better than you do), the quality of the teaching of the advanced courses, and what your district or school’s plan is giong from middle school to high school.</p>
<p>If your kid is “academic” has always been “academic”. etc., etc it seems to be obvious, put them in. Ask other parents, if the advanced math teacher is great, and this is the opportunity to have that teacher, put them in. If the advanced teacher is not so great, you can find that out too and rethink. If your kid is bright, but not an intuitive math person (I’m saying math, because that typically is the course at issue), than maybe maxing out on math a year or two prior to college will not be good, because some things may be forgotten, making college calculus even harder. If your kid is a bright all arounder and you or she has Ivy dreams, then this is all moot, she will need to have that “hardest course of study available” box checked by the college counselor senior year when she is applying if at all possible.</p>
<p>My point is that the courses you take in middle school can have a lasting effect your kid’s academic career - both good and bad OR it could mean absolutely nothing to your kid. You need to gather as much info as you can from teachers, counselors, your child, other parents (always a grain of salt), and then make a decision based on your local circumstances and YOUR kid.</p>
<p>My oldest went to an Ivy, she took the absolute hardest courseload she could, and had a 4.0+. I wasn’t certain my younger one would actually graduate, he didn’t even make National Honor Society, which was amazing for a non-deliquent at their school and had to be waivered into any advanced courses in high school. We waivered him, because amazingly he made the same or better grades in AP English and History that he had made in regular courses, I know he learned a lot, but didn’t have the background because he was such a slacker to make As - that was the kind of kid he was. You know your kid and you can educate yourself about the situation.</p>
<p>Hunt is right-there are a lot of variables here. Taking a challenging course is a good experience for many (but not all) kids. Much depends on the school, your daughter, how demanding her ECs are, and how stressful things are at home. </p>
<p>Assuming she is ready for the extra challenge, the good news is that if it doesn’t work out well for her in middle school, she can drop to a course that moves at a less demanding pace next year without it impacting her transcript or GPA. It’s harder to move in the other direction-from less challenging to more so, especially in math.</p>
<p>Know too that if she maxes out the school’s math curriculum, she can take advance math courses on-line, and no one ever died because they had to repeat calculus in college (in fact, an easy class might be very welcome in her freshman year). Or she can take AP Stat.</p>
<p>By the fact that you are even asking the questions tells me you may be concerned about your daughter’s ability to adapt socially to this new experience. That is a major issue and one you have to be aware of, but academics are relative based on what your daughter may see herself doing beyond high school. Is she interested in engineering, medicine, etc? If she has some idea of what she may want to do, it is important that you and her both realize that as silly as it seems, MS classes do have an impact all the way through the college process. High Schools have to mark on transcripts if the student has taken the “most demanding courses offered” and if pre-reqs in MS are not achieved, that box will not be checked AND if she wants to go a tippy top school, it is typically necessary for that type of achievement. There are so many different types of kiddos out there. If you are in Texas where rank is king, not taking the upper level classes would be a rank death sentence. So if you provide a bit more information, especially what your child’s past achievements are, state, etc, you may get more targeted advice. My kids run from the high over achiever to the “I’ll do what I need to get by” and depending on what kid we are speaking of, the advise would be different.</p>
<p>Do you know what level of math your daughter will enter into after following the advanced track in middle school? From what I can tell, the best math students are typically in Geometry or Algebra II in 9th grade and Calculus by senior year, depending on the school system. Some schools may go even higher than calculus, but I think that situation is more rare. </p>
<p>While it may not seem like a big deal now, it can be later on. At my high school the students in the lower level math classes goof off more often, while the highest math tracks are more focused. The students who want to learn are mostly in the highest levels, and kids in the lower levels who truly want to understand often find themselves struggling.</p>
<p>If your DD is good with math then let her take the advance placement in math. HS math sequence is rigid with respect to course selection till calculus. So generally the sequence is</p>
<p>Algebra 1
Algebra II with or without Trignometry
Geometry
Pre-Calculus with or without Trignometry
Advance Math/Calculus/AP Calculus AB/AP Calculus BC/AP Statistics
Multivariate Calculus/Diff Equation/Linear Algebra etc.</p>
<p>The higher math you start with in 9th grade the more opertunity you will have to take the math electives in the senior year. Sequence upto Pre-Calculus is rigid with Agebra II/Geometry interchanging.</p>
<p>It is best to enter high school with Pre-Calculus for a student interested in math/engineering.</p>
<p>In my opinion student socialize better in middle school if they are being properly challenged in school. According to your school’s placement tests/rules she’s qualified for the advanced courses. She should therefore take them. If at any point she feels stressed she can always fall back. It’s much harder to get placed up a level. No one will see the middle school grade unless she takes high school level courses in middle school (and then only if that’s what your district does.) Why close doors now?</p>
<p>It is my experience that the school will push the least challenging curriculum. I ended up with a very bored child (my first), with my second I went with my own instincts and had him take the harder classes. One thing I learned along the way (and it was not advertised at the MS) was that if a child took the harder classes and was totally overwhelmed he/she could drop back to the other class.</p>
<p>The other posters are correct in the math sequence. I found that taking the more advanced classes allows for more options in the future.</p>
<p>The social scene in middle school, especially for girls, will be difficult no matter what courses she takes. I don’t think I would consider that in making my decision.
If the teachers recommend that she take the advanced classes, I would certainly have her do it. She is likely to find her peers there, and she may actually adjust better to the social scene by having friends with more academic interests. She can always drop down if it turns out to be too difficult, as mathmom mentioned.</p>
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<p>This is misleading. Few middle schools in the U.S offer a math curriculum which covers up to pre-calculus. A reasonably rigorous schedule goes as follows: algebra I in middle school, algebra II in 9th, geometry in 10th, pre-calc/trig in 11th and calculus in 12th. Some schools offer algebra/geometry together for the most advanced students so that calc can be covered in 11th, freeing up senior year for college level classes.</p>
<p>Some schools flip the schedule and offer geometry in 9th and algebra II in 10th.</p>
<p>Many students who wish to study math or engineering can follow either of these routes. It really will depend upon what your school offers.</p>
<p>^^ I’d like to reinforce Gourmetmom’s post. Quite a few of the students admitted to MIT followed the path she just described. </p>
<p>I’ve been in your shoes, and I do recommend that if your child says “yes” to this, you should support it. In our case, it worked out extremely well for the first child, but not so well for the second. So I have a story and some advice.</p>
<p>When my daughter received the invitation to skip a level and take algebra in 7th grade, that was the first time any school official had ever recognized any math potential in her. She did not consider herself to be “math capable.” But after some agonizing, and some heart-to-heart talks with her, we said “yes.” She went on that track, becoming stronger each year. She went on to earn some national awards, and she’s now a physics major at MIT.</p>
<p>When my son received the same invitation, we of course said “yes,” and so did he. But unlike his sister, he received B grades through middle school, and when he hit Alg2/Trig in 9th grade, he went from a B to a C in freshman year. At that point, I wish…I wish…I wish we had switched him to a slower math track. Hindsight. You know what they say.</p>
<p>So I recommend that you say “yes.” But I also recommend that you carefully monitor how your child is doing at the end of 8th grade, and don’t be afraid to move down from that track, if your child is struggling. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>I found that my daughter, who is not a math person, thrived by being with the peer group in advanced math. She would have felt very left out had she not pushed herself to achieve this, and she did pass the AP calc class with flying colors and the AP exam. I know it contributed to self esteem.</p>
<p>No question about S either.</p>
<p>English the same. That’s where the more interesting discussions are going to be.</p>
<p>Thank you, everyone, for all of your replies. I think we will place her in the higher level as the school suggested and see how she does. You all make excellent points about being able to move down at some point etc… At this point, she isn’t thinking she wants to do something like engineering or medicine, but she is still so young. I want her to have every opportunity available to her and we have been encouraging her to do her best in everything she does. Our motto has been, “Better grades & better classes offer a wider range of choices.” It is so hard to know what to do. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. My daughter has not been identified as gifted. (Someone had asked how she performs.) She has always been a kid who did what she had to do to get by and nothing more. She has, though, been in a fulltime spanish immersion class with exceptionally gifted students. (I agree that we often rise to the level of those we surround ourselves with, so whoever said that you have a great point.) She has always performed right beneath these students and has scored very well on our state testing. She’s achieved this without trying too much. This year, because of our emphasis, she has taken a more active roll in her studies and has done even better. It will be interesting to see where she places and how she fares when mixed with her non-spanish speaking peers next year. For instance, I am anxious to see if Math taught in english will make a difference.<br>
Again, I appreciate your advice. It is hard for me to know how hard to push or what to do. All the parents at her school have started giving their opinions of what to do so I have heard lots of different arguments. I just want to do the right thing. Since I wasn’t encouraged when I was her age, I often wonder what I might have achieved so I only want the best for her. However, I also don’t want to try and live out my dream through her. It is her life.</p>
<p>Hi Fissie - It is a difficult thing indeed to find that point between “not pushing enough” and “pushing too much”. Even with the second child when you have more information about how it works at your childrens’ school, it is still a delicate balance. I think you just have to go with your gut sometimes. And I am still working on it here with my second child.</p>
<p>As for the “gifted identification” I am sometimes surprised by the kids that are missed. Having my oldest in college, I can tell you that a lot of student who were not identified as gifted do really well in HS and end up as top students. You say that your D is starting MS and is starting to take a more active role in her studies which I think is a really good sign of maturity and motivation. That will do a lot for her.</p>
<p>Another perspective (and please don’t flame me, it’s just been my kids experience!) As you move through MS & HS, and multiple levels of the same class are available (i.e. English III, Regular, Honors and AP/IB) the kids who are more motivated are usually in the higher level classes, while the kids who are troublemakers and/or don’t care/talk all the time, etc. are usually in the lower level classes. D1 has always taken regular level math in HS by choice & has come home some days with tales that make me shake my head. D2 is in honors HS math classes & we’ve now figured out that there’s not a lot of difference in terms of content between regular & honors, except that the teacher is able to get through things a little faster & with a little more depth because the honors class is (generally) more cooperative.</p>
<p>I think you should also ask these questions of parents in your own school district - they’ll be able to give you specifics for your district. </p>
<p>One thing I’d like to add - people don’t always recognize that it can be stressful for a child to be placed in a class that moves too slowly for them.</p>
<p>Most of the people in my school took Algebra II in 9th grade, Pre Cal in 10th, AP Calc in 11th.</p>
<p>What I did, along with about 30 other students, was Pre Cal 9th, AP Calc BC 10th, Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations 11th, AP Statistics 12th.</p>
<p>A lot of the students on the lower track took PreCalculus in the summer, so that they could take AP Calculus in 10th grade, which is definitely an option (I wouldn’t recommend Calc in the summer). I sort of wish that I did this option the summer before 9th grade so that I could start of with Calc.</p>
<p>There were even Freshman starting in AP Calculus (without summer courses) since I’ve taken Calc, and they seem to do fine (there are far fewer of these students). I wouldn’t recommend going overly advanced unless that is their passion (Many students in my class loved math [Ironically they were the ones you got B’s and C’s, because they rather delve into further chapters and applications than do repetitive homework], although a lot were pressured by their parents to do the most advanced track and get straight A’s].</p>
<p>So, in conclusion if you feel there is an interest or passion in math, definitely go for the advanced track, as there is nothing as frustrating as resenting not being able to take more advanced classes (At least in my case, I’ve harbored nothing but resent that my elementary school didn’t offer Algebra).</p>
<p>I would say that as long as you take Algebra and Geometry in middle school you will be advanced enough for colleges though.</p>
<p>Everyone has such great thoughts… Actually, I have asked around in my district which is what prompted this post. There were such varying viewpoints. One side thinking that it is an opportunity not to be missed, the side that thinks there is too much pressure on kids and keeping kids out of the classes is the way to go, and then there is a whole BUNCH of people who don’t even have any clue what is going on!!! I think I need to educate myself more by talking with the counselors, etc… Problem is, they don’t seem to want to talk with me. I asked about the testing and placement early in the year. It was like I was asking a dirty question… The counselor had no idea how to respond and referred me to the head of the department. The head of the department gave me some information, but didn’t really answer all of my questions. It was a dismissal if anything. I think maybe because my daughter isn’t a clear ‘brain’; she is not in the gifted program. However, my point was that she was right there with all of them and holding strong and she has consistently tested in the advanced since 1st grade. I merely wanted to know how they decided because if she was close, I didn’t want her to miss an opportunity because of my ignorance.</p>