Rank The Ivies

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
141

<p>Johnny, that's what I meant. Columbia attracts alot of "whatever" applicants that the other Ivies don;t get.</p>

<p>Red&blue, Dartmouth is actually the richest school among the Ivies when it comes to endowment and research per student. Dartmouth has about 500K per student, which puts it after Yale among the Ivies and well ahead of the others. As for advising, Dartmouth system is much stronger than the non-HYP Ivies, at Columbia College for example you barely even have an advisor unless you do a thesis. </p>

<p>As for range of majors, you only get one major so I don't see how this is that significant unless you really want to major in something random. </p>

<p>As for personal development, I would say that the far greater access to grants (since there is no competition from grad students) gives the "LAC-ish" Ivies a significant boost. Also, since programs are all catered to undergrads there is much more exposure to opportunities. At Penn or Columbia, for example, study abroad must be sought out. You often have to go on a program led by another school. At Dartmouth 2/3 of students go on one study abroad, 1/3 go on two. And its all Dartmouth led: which means Dartmouth professor is leading the trip, a huge budget for weekend educational excursions and trips, and a 100% Dartmouth student make-up. Its just a much more developed program. The same goes for research, you get access to all kinds of undergrad only grants. I personally got over $10K for my thesis research, this is commonplace. This isn;t commonplace at most of the research oriented Ivies.</p>

<p>When it comes to overall research there is no question Dartmouth lags behind most of the Ivies. I would argue that this isn't that important. When it comes to undergrad education, however, its near the top.</p>

142

<p>How can ANY of you rank the ivies? Have any of you been to all 8 of them for your undergraduate education? Rankings are just perceptions with some quantitative numbers behind them. You guys can argue about which one has better quality, but you just argue with numbers and hearsay, but none of you can factually prove it.</p>

143

<p>123orange just because you go to yale (even if you don't who cares)doesn't mean you can tell others to shut their </p>

<p>mouths. this thread is named "rank the ivies" if you have problem with it why look at it? are you blind or something? for all </p>

<p>of you saying it's pointless to rank the ivies, what the f*** are you doing clicking the thread then? just to show off you </p>

<p>are some lofty philosophers who only know how to criticize? just don't look at it then idiots</p>

144

<p>aww i hate to see dartmouth at the bottom of some lists. i don't pretend to be a college expert, but it seems to offer the best <em>undergraduate</em> experience (along with princeton), even if the other ivies have more money, more famous professors, etc. because the other ivies don't necessarily give young undergrads access to that stuff.</p>

145

<p>Slipper:</p>

<p>Dartmouth is a fine school. It is still...in my view....the lowest ranked of the Ivies (which are themselves at the top of American higher ed). A few notes to your last response:</p>

<p>1) endowment per student - you claim D is the richest among the schools....
here's some objective data for your review:</p>

<p>Rank Institution Endowment per Student (2005) Endowment per Student (2006)<br>
1. Princeton University $1,679,380<br>
2. Yale University $1,342,099<br>
3. Harvard University $1,291,051<br>
4. Grinnell College $893,666<br>
5. Pomona College $837,825<br>
6. Bryn Athyn College $803,626 [30]<br>
7. Swarthmore College $789,735<br>
8. Rice University $726,147<br>
9. Stanford University $714,620<br>
10. Amherst College $698,469 $820,846 [26]
11. Williams College $666,193<br>
12. California Institute of Technology $653,726<br>
13. Massachusetts Institute of Technology $650,430<br>
14. Wellesley College $557,243<br>
15. Dartmouth College $475,859<br>
16. Northwestern University $440,068<br>
17. Baylor College of Medicine $426,326<br>
18. Smith College $361,572<br>
19. Emory University $360,662<br>
20. Claremont McKenna College $352,219 </p>

<p>That list has D fourth per student among the Ivies. Although it's not shown, Brown is around $300K per student and Columbia, Cornell and Penn are around $225-$250K per student.</p>

<p>If you look at endowment for only the undergrad schools (which is admitedly hard for Penn, Cornell and Columbia's engineering school b/c they are more than lib arts at the ugrad level), the relative rankings dont change at all. Harvard College itself has a $8-9 BN+ endowment. Yale College and Princeton are also $7 BN+ undergrad endowments. Per student, HYP are all at least 50% higher than D. Check the schools' annual financials. All this leaves Dartmouth BELOW the top.</p>

<p>And total endowment isn't "the end all be all". Any endowment leveraged over a broader series of schools (with the benefits that scale and scope brings - e.g., Penn students can access its grad programs in communications, education, etc), or a school in a unique place (Cambridge, NYC) can add to the overall experience for its students. A relatively small school in Hanover can offer the same access and benefits. (although I'll cede the fact that someone whose chosen Hanover goes there precisely b/c they want that type of intimate evironment removed from large cities, etc.). Personal preference</p>

<p>2) Advising: well I must admit i've never seen a ranking of quality of advising. But I am pretty well versed on the subject and have seen alot of anecdotal evidence. I would say Brown's system is viewed as one of the very best in the Ivies (they have to have strong advisors given their unique educ program), along with Princeton's and Yale's advising. Penn is very strong in the prof schools (nursing, engineering, etc.) and strong depending on the major in the College of Arts and Sciences. Columbia - i agree with you, it needs work. Net net, you need to support your claim that D is the best in advising after HYP. Otherwise, it's just boosterism.</p>

<p>3) Access to grants: you may be right, but show some proof. Yale and Princeton are indisputably bigger research organizations + ultra undergrad focused. Cant see how D can top that. H (when it so deigns) may invite its lowly undergrads to get funding; H also has amazing endowed programs where students can travel, do research, write papers/books etc in areas of their interest - i know several friends who joined such programs. Penn's CURF (center for undergrad research & fellowships) is incredibly supportive and organized around this entire theme, and is leveraging Penn's grad schools for the benefit of the undergrad population. Again, i dont see clear evidence D gets the crown:-(</p>

<p>4) Study Abroad - your claim is silly. YOU may prefer going on a Dartmouth students only, Dartmouth organized, Dartmouth led trip. Many other students (I daresay the majority) dont mind meeting other students from other schools when they're in other countries. Penn and Columbia win hands down in the breadth of their study abroad opportunities. Those two schools also happen to be the two most international schools in the Ivies (# of intl students, # of students studying abroad, # of foreign faculty members, # of foreign post docs). Check the Chronicle of Higher Ed for the stats. </p>

<p>And personal development (which was the point of my original post in this thread) is not just about going to England or Nepal or Kenya for a week. It's about the stimulation and evolution that comes from exposure to new people and ideas. </p>

<p>Again, D is not on top.</p>

<p>In summation, I stand by my original ranking.</p>

<p>Yale
Princeton
Harvard
Penn
Columbia
Cornell
Brown
Dartmouth</p>

146

<p>Well, I have finally given in and here I go with my rankings:</p>

<p>1.- Princeton
2.- Yale
3.- Harvard
4.- Penn
5.- Brown
6.- Dartmouth
7.- Columbia
8.- Cornell</p>

<p>I think that the emphasis on undergraduate education that Princeton, Brown and Dartmouth have is extremely relevant. The availability of professors as well as access to advisors is also very important. The endowment's per capita places Brown and Dartmouth more in the middle of the ivies. Other important issues that most of you seem to ignore is how well adjusted and satisfied the students are in some of these universities compared to others. Desirable location, campus, etc.. ( nothing beats Cambridge in my opinion ) is certainly very important too.</p>

<p>I believe that if one does a "qualitative" analysis, Brown and Dartmouth are consistently placed smack in the middle of any rankings of the ivies. I will tell you that I am keeping as much objectivity as possible. I extremely dislike Princeton and I like Harvard better than Yale. I am not sure about Penn over Brown either but I gave it an extra notch because of the graduate programs being more extensive, etc. But if you throw everything I mentioned into the mix, you certainly come with a close approxiamtion to my rankings.</p>

147

<p>@tux08902: "And also remember that the Ivy League label means nothing anymore" . </p>

<p>I think that the way our society acts proves you wrong. No matter how inaccurate it may be, the Ivy label means now more than ever especially when it is actually the only distinction between so many great other universities. Standford, MIT, Duke and U of Chicago are some typical examples of great universities that have nothing to envy.......except the Ivy label. That label went from being and athletic conference to become a synonym for prestigious, elitism and class. </p>

<p>ie: " I see that you went to an ivy league school...." " "Wow...he got into an ivy? " ( any of the 8 will do ) Sorry, it is just the way it is. Just like Harvard will always be more than a 7 letter word. Harvard.</p>

148

<p>harvardyaleprincetoncolumbiadartmouthbrownpenncornell</p>

149

<p>1) I meant to say Dartmouth was much richer than Columbia, Brown, Penn, and Cornell on a per-student basis (I said it was after Yale). The fact that a great majority of this endowment is directed towards undergrad exclusive facilities and research gives it a further boost. It has almost double per student vs. Penn and Cornell, and significantly exceeds Brown and Columbia.</p>

<p>2) Dartmouth advising is stronger than most Ivies outside of Princeton. First years get an advisor. After this there is a program called Presidential Scholars where sophomores work 1-1 with a professor in their major is preparation for thesis work. Those choosing to begin thesis work junior year can take a reading course in most majors, which is also 1-1. Thesis work is also 1-1 but since its likely your professor is only advising you (and has no grad students) once again the focus and access is incredible. </p>

<p>In fact the whole administration is much friendlier and open. Go to Columbia and try to change a class. You go to Kent hall which feels like the DMV, only to get a rude bureacratic response from the employee. Go to the Dartmouth office (it feels like a small home) and the registrar herself will meet with you in most cases. Totally different feeling. </p>

<p>3) Exclusive undergrad grants for thesis research exist in numerous departments, for example the Clare Goodman Grant for Anthropology funds up to 10K for thesis research. Most course areas have grants and funded work, another example is engineering with its intro to engineering class where funded teams build a product. Some of these products have gone on to receive angel and venture funding, all brokered by the engineering department. The Thayer Grants throw money for community service 3-month terms, and anyone in good academic standing is likely to get fully funded. </p>

<p>4) It appears you know little about Dartmouth;'s programs. They are the best among the Ivies, perhaps better than any school. </p>

<p>Dartmouth splits its programs into two areas 1) language study abroad and 2) study abroad relevant to your major. The language trips begin with intense course instruction in Hanover which encompasses class and "drill," where every morning or afternoon you are in a quick response speaking class. Its incredible for learning how to speak before you leave for a term abroad. </p>

<p>Majors also almost all have "FSP"s which teach major related classes. Examples are the Music FSP in London, the anthro FSP in New Zealand, the philosophy FSP in Edinburgh, the Environmental Studies FSP in Africa, etc. </p>

<p>Dartmouth only led programs have numerous benefits, such as a HUGE budget for outside trips and cultural excursions. Not only is a Dartmouth professor advising you and living with you the entire time (a tremendous comfort to have someone from your school managing the trip), every Saturday you go on a totally paid-for trip to museums, monasteries and cathedrals, places of cultural importance, etc. Also, there is a one week trip to another city that many students also go on. On the FSPs it might be trips into the bush in Africa, trips to the opera for music, etc. Once again, its all Dartmouth students with a professor plus local faculty. </p>

<p>When it comes to personal development, Dartmouth wins. Dartmouth invests in undergrads to a degree that its counterparts do not. </p>

<p>Undergrad Focus Ranking:</p>

<ol>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>cornell</li>
</ol>

150

<p>According to COHE it is true that Dartmouth spends more per student on advising and student services (advising, fellowships etc.) than any other Ivy, by a fairly wide margin. The runner-up is Yale, followed pretty closely by Princeton. Actually, of all the top 20 universities in USNWR, Dartmouth spends more than anyone else (#2 is Caltech, #3 Yale). Harvard is fairly far behind, and Columbia, Brown, Penn and Cornell don't even spend a quarter what the top guys do.</p>

<p>That said, Dartmouth honestly still isn't anything like HYP in terms of resources and atmosphere - no matter how much it spends. But strictly based on quality of undergrad academics, I think you could make the argument that Dartmouth is third in the Ivies after Yale and Princeton. It is an awesome school with tremendously bright students.</p>

151

<p>"123orange just because you go to yale (even if you don't who cares)doesn't mean you can tell others to shut their </p>

<p>mouths. this thread is named "rank the ivies" if you have problem with it why look at it? are you blind or something? for all </p>

<p>of you saying it's pointless to rank the ivies, what the f*** are you doing clicking the thread then? just to show off you </p>

<p>are some lofty philosophers who only know how to criticize? just don't look at it then idiots"</p>

<p>You have grammar problems and obviously a blind person cannot read this thread. use logic -_- Also, uhh... do you know how to type in paragraph form?</p>

152

<p>Slipper and posterX -</p>

<p>Thanks for both of your posts. posterX, i in particular liked your reference re COHE. Do you have a site for that data - it'd be quite interesting to see.</p>

<p>Slipper: I indeed am weakest in my knowledge of Dartmouth among the Ivies. And Dartmouth does indeed sound quite impressive given the programs/features of their undergraduate experience you mentioned. In addition, the COHE data mentioned above is also quite compelling.</p>

<p>I have clearly underestimated Dartmouth overall. But remember, my ranking is more about the overall undergrad experience and defined by (1) the total pool of academic/civic service/research/"just darn fun" things a student can do, (2) level of advising available and (3) resources a school directs to education vs research vs other stuff (i.e., how does a university balance teaching vs research vs sports et al) </p>

<p>Re scale of activities, I think the opportunity is what's more relevant as a metric - that screens out the subset of the population who self select a particular environment (very techy, ultra artsy, only women, very religiously focused, etc.)</p>

<p>A New Ranking based on info from this thread (of admitedly very different types of institutions, all of which are among the very very best globally)</p>

<p>Yale (the whole package - unrivalled ugrad $$$$ resources, undergrad focus, civic service tradition)
Princeton (best academic balance, huge resources, great focus)
Harvard (total $$$ resources, #1 academics except in engineering)
Penn (academics, academic flexibility, $ resources, learning hubs, advising, civic service tradition)
Dartmouth (huge ugrad focus, $$ resources, great total experience for ugrads)
Cornell (range of programs to study, unique strengths vis a vis the Ivy League (vet, hotel, engineering, etc.)
Brown (the Open Curriculum, strengths in the humanities, flexibility)
Columbia (the Core, NYC opportunities)</p>

153

<p>Those of course would have different weighting depending on one's own personal values.</p>

<p>For example, I consider Columbia's rigorous core in Western civilization to be an asset, whereas Brown's curriculum (or lack thereof) is a hindrance. Other people less awesome (and more wrong ;)) than myself might see it the other way around.</p>

154

<p>^^^But of course.</p>

<p>Brown's curriculum (or lack thereof ) happens to be an asset since it can be tailored to the absurd rigidity of Columbia's rigorous core ...or not at all. Plus, let's not forget the tremendous advantages of living in a very depressed area of Manhattan...</p>

<p>BTW, does anyone know if the guy who raped and tortured the grad student at Columbia last week or so, got caught?</p>

<p>At the end, it is just a matter of very personal taste.</p>

155

<p>Yes, he got caught!</p>

156

<p>Yeah I hope they lock that guy up and throw away the key.</p>

<p>Red&blue, glad I could let you know a little more about Dartmouth. Its at times a hidden gem among the Ivies.</p>

157

<p>Moviebuff:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/21/2007-04-21_not_gonna_let_him_get_away_.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/21/2007-04-21_not_gonna_let_him_get_away_.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(Also in the same issue, you can read about several people being shot and killed while getting robbed in Brooklyn and a 5-year old who was attacked, raped, and killed with a jump rope by a random robber, all in the course of a "nice" weekend day -- that's NYC news for you, if you are lucky to buy the one paper that still tries to report a fraction of the crime)</p>

158

<p>orange123 my comment against people saying we can't rank ivy wasn't directed to you, so i take that part back. but you </p>

<p>sounded like saying people should shut up if they are not good enough to go to ivyleague school, maybe you did maybe </p>

<p>not, but it sure wasn't about the grammar. as to my failing to write in paragraph format and keeping grammar correct, do </p>

<p>you really want to go there? if you are keeping track of those things i can't say much, but that's just being picky on your </p>

<p>part. also, i gotta say "blind people obviously can't read this thread use logic," was pretty original. maybe i am not good </p>

<p>enough to understand the great yalie's joke or live up to your professionalism in classical literature.</p>

159

<p>namayo is right on the money:</p>

<ol>
<li>H</li>
<li>Y</li>
<li><p>P</p></li>
<li><p>Columbia</p></li>
<li><p>Dartmouth</p></li>
<li><p>Brown</p></li>
<li><p>Penn</p></li>
<li><p>Cornell</p></li>
</ol>

160

<p>There is a general consensus in academia that Columbia, Penn and Cornell belong at the bottom of the ivies, for many reasons. Keep in mind that your interest is undergrad, not grad school at this point. All other factors included, this is the way it goes:</p>

<p>1- Princeton
2- Yale
3- Harvard</p>

<p>4- Brown
5- Dartmouth</p>

<p>6- Penn
7- Cornell
8- Columbia</p>