<p>Some colleges have a higher proportion of the student body enrolled in engineering, physical sciences, life sciences, comp sci, and math. These majors are more difficult because they are math-intensive and/or time-consuming (labs). Here is a ranking of colleges based on SATs and graduation rate (input and output measures). The ranking is adjusted according to the proportion of students in math, science, comp sci, engineering.</p>
<p>I divided the percent Science/engineering by 2 and added 1 the get an adjustment factor. I multiplied the adjustment factor by the graduation rate and then by the SAT midpoint to get a quality index.</p>
<p>The science and tech schools tend to have lower grad rates because of curriculum difficulty ane are penalized in the US News rankings unfairly.</p>
<p>1515 89 97% 2003 California Institute of Technology
1470 93 78% 1903 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1495 84 93% 1842 Harvey Mudd College
1485 95 35% 1655 Princeton University
1400 92 51% 1615 Cornell University
1485 97 24% 1610 Harvard University
1435 95 33% 1589 Stanford University
1495 96 20% 1576 Yale University
1440 94 30% 1560 Duke University
1460 92 31% 1553 Washington University in St Louis
1435 94 30% 1549 Swarthmore College
1395 87 54% 1542 Carnegie Mellon University
1475 94 22% 1538 Pomona College
1430 95 26% 1536 Brown University
1335 82 80% 1532 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
1425 90 39% 1530 Rice University
1420 95 26% 1526 Williams College
1435 93 29% 1525 Columbia University in the City of New York
1400 93 31% 1504 Carleton College
1435 93 25% 1500 Northwestern University
1410 95 23% 1493 University of Notre Dame
1420 96 16% 1475 Amherst College
1440 93 20% 1471 Dartmouth College
1425 95 17% 1467 University of Pennsylvania
1415 91 26% 1457 Vanderbilt University
1390 91 29% 1446 Haverford College
1400 90 28% 1437 Johns Hopkins University
1420 90 24% 1431 University of Chicago
1420 89 23% 1409 Tufts University
1330 78 71% 1403 Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus
1395 92 15% 1380 Wesleyan University
1330 93 23% 1379 University of Virginia-Main Campus
1364 93 17% 1376 Davidson College
1380 93 12% 1361 Vassar College
1310 89 33% 1358 Bucknell University
1405 88 19% 1353 Bowdoin College
1400 89 17% 1351 Washington and Lee University
1330 88 30% 1347 University of California-Berkeley
1367.5 92 14% 1347 Wellesley College
1365 90 19% 1343 Colgate University
1255 76 80% 1335 Stevens Institute of Technology
1395 91 10% 1335 Middlebury College
1280 89 34% 1334 Lafayette College
1310 81 51% 1333 Case Western Reserve University
1340 87 28% 1330 Grinnell College
1375 88 20% 1329 Hamilton College
1325 88 28% 1327 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
1370 89 16% 1320 Brandeis University
1355 87 23% 1317 Colby College
1345 91 15% 1316 College of William and Mary
1285 90 25% 1301 University of California-Los Angeles
1355 93 6% 1300 Georgetown University
1315 83 38% 1299 Lehigh University
1385 88 12% 1295 Emory University
1320 86 28% 1294 Whitman College
1340 91 12% 1290 Boston College
1400 89 6% 1286 Claremont McKenna College
1295 86 30% 1280 St. Olaf College
1360 86 18% 1273 Macalester College
1345 89 11% 1265 Barnard College
1245 84 41% 1262 University of California-San Diego
1265 92 16% 1258 College of the Holy Cross
1320 81 35% 1255 University of Rochester
1370 85 15% 1251 University of Southern California
1305 84 27% 1244 Bryn Mawr College
1320 89 12% 1243 Wake Forest University
1295 82 32% 1233 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1315 83 20% 1198 Colorado College
1355 82 14% 1187 Oberlin College
1290 87 11% 1186 Trinity College
1310 84 16% 1186 Franklin and Marshall College
1280 86 16% 1186 Smith College
1270 86 16% 1181 Gustavus Adolphus College
1380 75 28% 1180 Reed College
1300 86 10% 1175 Wheaton College
1325 81 18% 1171 Connecticut College
1335 83 10% 1162 Kenyon College
1345 84 5% 1156 New York University
1300 81 19% 1155 Gettysburg College
1290 83 16% 1155 Dickinson College
1265 86 12% 1154 University of Richmond
1195 84 29% 1148 Pennsylvania State University-Main Campus
1270 81 23% 1147 University of Florida
1350 79 15% 1144 Scripps College
1275 80 24% 1142 University of Maryland-College Park
1270 79 27% 1141 University of Wisconsin-Madison
1280 83 14% 1135 Furman University
1260 78 30% 1132 Kalamazoo College
1210 84 22% 1127 Yeshiva University
1230 83 21% 1126 St Mary's College of Maryland
1270 82 16% 1125 Illinois Wesleyan University
1270 82 16% 1122 Boston University
1205 78 38% 1118 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
1160 79 42% 1111 University of California-Davis
1340 76 17% 1104 Tulane University of Louisiana
1190 78 37% 1101 Texas A & M University
1275 81 13% 1100 Occidental College
1225 78 28% 1090 Clemson University
1260 79 18% 1086 Denison University
1260 79 18% 1084 Beloit College
1170 80 30% 1078 University of California-Irvine
1265 77 21% 1077 SUNY at Binghamton
1285 76 20% 1077 University of Miami
1225 78 25% 1075 The University of Texas at Austin
1260 82 8% 1073 Skidmore College
1220 83 12% 1072 Muhlenberg College
1210 81 18% 1070 DePauw University
1225 80 17% 1061 Willamette University
1230 78 20% 1054 Brigham Young University
1290 78 9% 1051 George Washington University
1192.5 76 31% 1049 Juniata College
1245 75 24% 1045 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
1190 77 28% 1043 Wofford College
1230 78 17% 1041 Austin College
1254 78 12% 1039 Sewanee: The University of the South
1185 80 19% 1037 University of California-Santa Barbara
1170 82 15% 1032 Syracuse University
1174 82 13% 1026 College of Saint Benedict
1240 76 18% 1025 University of Puget Sound
1220 75 23% 1021 Earlham College
1160 80 20% 1021 Saint Johns University
1230 75 21% 1020 Ursinus College
1255 73 22% 1015 Rhodes College
1195 78 17% 1013 University of Delaware
1195 75 26% 1011 University of Washington-Seattle Campus
1250 73 21% 1010 Centre College
1225 80 6% 1008 Fordham University
1180 80 13% 1003 Miami University-Oxford
1253 80 0% 1002 Thomas Aquinas College
1215 77 14% 1002 University of Georgia
1185 78 16% 998 Hope College
1240 79 3% 992 Pepperdine University
1200 75 18% 982 University of Connecticut
1170 75 24% 982 Marquette University
1210 71 28% 981 Allegheny College
1185 73 26% 979 Rutgers University-New Brunswick
1200 76 14% 974 Clark University
1230 71 20% 963 Ohio State University-Main Campus
1220 72 19% 960 Southwestern University
1200 74 16% 958 Saint Louis University-Main Campus
1210 73 16% 954 The College of Wooster
1245 71 14% 944 Southern Methodist University
1150 74 22% 943 Michigan State University
1260 73 4% 939 American University
1195 74 11% 934 University of Denver
1140 68 39% 926 Virginia Military Institute
1205 72 13% 924 Baylor University
1150 69 31% 918 Purdue University-Main Campus
1180 66 34% 913 Iowa State University
1155 71 23% 913 Albion College
1070 78 19% 912 Spelman College
1240 66 20% 902 Hendrix College
1155 71 20% 900 Wabash College
1130 71 23% 893 Presbyterian College
1190 69 17% 893 Millsaps College
1150 71 19% 893 Birmingham Southern College
1245 63 26% 888 University of Minnesota-Twin Cities
1105 71 25% 881 Sweet Briar College
1195 67 20% 880 University of Missouri-Columbia
1175 67 23% 878 University of Colorado at Boulder
1185 68 18% 877 Ohio Wesleyan University
1150 72 10% 870 Indiana University-Bloomington
1150 71 10% 857 Drew University
1135 68 22% 855 University of California-Santa Cruz
1155 69 14% 853 Agnes Scott College
1205 66 12% 843 University of Iowa
1170 63 26% 833 Auburn University Main Campus
1135 69 11% 826 Hollins University
1170 67 9% 818 Goucher College
1045 66 23% 770 University of California-Riverside
1160 58 18% 734 The University of Tennessee
1310 56 0% 734 New College of Florida
1125 59 20% 731 Hanover College
1125 57 9% 671 Mills College
1095 51 21% 616 Wells College
1085 52 15% 606 Randolph-Macon College</p>
<p>Public universities are penalized in this survey because of their low SAT scores, maybe you should use the math SAT section only instead of math + CR since many science/engineering majors are not good at english</p>
<p>I find it hard to look at a list that tries to compare Whitman and Hamilton to Berkeley and Michigan. </p>
<p>And doesn’t pierre have a point…with relatively small numbers of hard science students, don’t LACs get an unfair boost from having typically sky-high CR scores (as well as high graduation rates).</p>
<p>Sorry if this seems stupid but I just want to clarify-- this analysis is seeking to determine which schools match the highest SAT scores with the highest percent of the student body studying science because studying science is “harder”? I ask this as a chemistry concentrator at Brown.</p>
<p>modestmelody-
This analysis is based on two premises: 1) that there are two basic aspects that determine the quality of the school…a-the quality of the students as measured by SAT and b-what the school does with the students it enrolls as measured by graduation rate. 2) that graduation rate is inversely related to the difficulty of the curriculum as measured by the percent in science, comp sci, engineering, and math. (see Harvey Mudd and Caltech)</p>
<p>So first I adjusted the graduation rate by a “difficulty factor” (percent in sci/tech fields) and then multiplied by SAT to create an index of quality (both input and output) adjusted for curriculum difficulty.</p>
<p>Personally, I know people who graduate early or fail to graduate within 4 years because of financial difficulty issues. We are assuming students can handle the coursework if they get accepted into their respective universities…</p>
<p>It’s not that it is difficult but many students drop out because they lack time management skills, lack of motivation to attend lecture, lack of control over their social lives (ie. drink, party, and chill out all the time), and as a result, they do not take studying seriously and bomb critical exams. Many students are qualified to handle the workload, it’s just that some ppl don’t take things seriously and fail all their classes…</p>
<h2>Sometimes, seniors do not even tell their parents that they are not graduating on time and appear in their graduation cap and gown and attend commencement hoping that their name will get called. Their parents fly long distance, drive up in limousines, carrying flowers, and greeting cards only to realize that little Johnny isn’t going to receive his diploma on commencement day… :(</h2>
<p>Here is an example… 2200 SAT student at Johns Hopkins and I got a 2.1 GPA after freshman year (my issue was my lack of time management and poor study habits). I think I got couple C+'s and I did not pass a course (I got a D+, which was an unsatisfactory grade which will permanently scar my academic record forever).</p>
<p>A 2.0 GPA is academic probation and you can get kicked out and expelled from school if you do not pull at least a 3.0 GPA the next semester… I was confident that I could handle the courseload (which was ridiculous and overwhelming at first, but I got the hang of it)… Eventually I pulled a 3.5 GPA the next semester and a 3.7 GPA my most recent semester after studying my BUTT off and having zero contact with outside civilization… I did some hardcore studying and it paid off… </p>
<p>I mean, not all students who are on academic probation are failures because they couldn’t handle the difficult course load. I was pre occupied with drinking and partying my first semester so I put academics second to last on my list of priorities… Students need to get their act together and not fail first semester of college. LOL. Improving your time management skills and reorganizing your priorities is a must if you want to succeed at any college…</p>
<p>Oh… I think I understand now. So what you’re saying is, a school that has high SATs and a high graduation rate (when you take into account a normalization factor which recognizes that graduation rate for the sciences is much lower and therefore schools with more people in the sciences should not be penalized) ranks high on this list.</p>
<p>That’s an interesting analysis.</p>
<p>Phead-- I complete agree with you about all of those things, however, I think that if you use the 6-year graduation figures (which it appears collegehelp is doing) many of those things are covered.</p>
<p>I went from being probably the worst student at Hopkins freshman year intro chemistry class to BEASTING even the most skilled, highly accomplished, and brightest high school valedictorians in my Organic chemistry class. Getting an F in intro chem to an A in organic chemistry… pretty awesome isn’t it…</p>
<p>I personally believe it is up to the individual to make a decision within their mind on whether or not you want the best in life and whether you will put in the hard work and effort to make the most of your situation… The state of your mind and how you perceive, handle, and value academics will be the determining factor on whether or not you succeed or fail in college… :D</p>
<p>A ton of ppl can handle the difficult course load assuming that they were deemed qualified upon receiving admissions into the university…:)</p>
<p>However, please do take note that there are schools that weigh high school GPA more than they do SAT scores. Some schools also superscore STAs. And, some large schools run by departments. It is my understanding that at Cal, students of the colleges of engineering, compsci and science have higher SAT scores than the rest of the colleges/majors. Having said that, I’m not sure if the ranking you made becomes reliable.</p>
<p>GPA is not well defined national. The numbers vary far too much-- different grading systems, different difficulty level, etc. GPA would not be useful taken from high school students.</p>
<p>A case could be made for class rank, but I don’t think there are detailed numbers about that distribution and I’m not sure that that could be easily worked into this model. However, I have seen some reports (not sure where) about the high statistical correlation between high SATs and high class rank and high GPA, suggesting that while we may on some qualitative level feel that these measures are not the most appropriate, any one of these measures works reasonably well as a statistical proxy for the others.</p>
<p>There are other reasons why this model doesn’t necessarily match what collegehelp titled the thread, and there is an interesting case that I’ve heard RML make on here (and others as well) that someone who was low on this list (poor graduation rates considering) “puts hair on your chest” and doesn’t “handhold”. Now I don’t buy that argument for even a second, but someone looking to re-frame these results could certainly come at this with a different approach.</p>
<p>That said, I do think this particular methodology is quite interesting, if difficult because of what data is available versus all the data we’d like to see.</p>
<p>What about rankings without average SAT scores… What do SAT scores have to do with the difficulty of curriculum? Besides, at public universities the average SAT score is always lower, because to them the GPA is more important…</p>
<p>Sorry if you already answered this…how did you decide which schools to look at? I find it odd that you have schools like Centre, Hope, and Wofford on here, but no, say, Mount Holyoke or Bates…</p>
<p>(Unless I’m overlooking something, of course - that’s a lot of text to sift through!)</p>
<p>How is graduation rate defined? Is this the 6 year graduation rate from the common data set or something else?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Is this some sort of urban myth you are trying to create? ;)</p>
<p>Some colleges have guest lists for the families of a graduating senior’s family while many larger schools simply give tickets to graduating seniors to distribute as they see fit. Any senior that would have their parents arrive for an event they won’t be attending has bigger issue than can be solved on this board. </p>
<p>Either way, he or she will NOT be attending commencement “hoping” for their name to be called - the commencement program will make that abundantly clear as well as they won’t be on the attendance list so they won’t be permitted to even get on line let alone have a seat assigned to them. </p>
<p>That’s a nice nightmare for a parent though.</p>
<p>That is what this staff lady at the Office of the Registrar at Hopkins told me when I had a random conversation with her in line for lunch a couple weeks ago…</p>
<p>There is a good seven or more of these type of students each year that will attend commencement (will not be given a seat or get in line of course), but will stand there with their cap and gowns waiting until the ceremony ends. After commencement is all said and done, they finally tell their parents the truth. </p>
<p>The conversation usually goes something like this:</p>
<p>George09: Dad, I have something to tell you. Mom: Yes son, We are so proud of you today. Where would you like to go to celebrate? Fogo de Chao? Dad: We love you son… George09: I’m actually not graduating… Dad: What do you mean son? George09: The Dean said I was expelled from school because of my poor grades last semester senior yr…
blah blah blah Mom: We still love you son. Why didn’t you tell us this sooner? Dad: Get out of my sight now… !!!
to be honest, I think the lady must have been exaggerating. I personally would have told my parents before the ceremony started so I wouldn’t have to make my parents angry and sad that they attended graduation day for no reason…</p>
