<p>Teenagers are not the same as adults – when an adult child looks back and regrets high school choices and says: “Why didn’t you push me more?” to a parent, that does not mean that in reality he would have responded well to that pressure as a teen. He is looking back from a more mature vantage point. And, anyway, we shouldn’t beat ourselves up too much – we make mistakes, too. We’re not machines. </p>
<p>I agree with a well-respected educational psychologist in this area who reiterates that the most important task of high school students is to learn to manage their own lives. Inevitably, they will make mistakes. Fortunately, our society does not have draconian penalties for getting a few “B’s” on one’s report card. Yes, college choices could be affected – that’s how some people learn, through experience. As has already been pointed out, temperament, age – I would add in some cases, learning style issues – play into it.</p>
<p>I am certainly not saying it’s not a good idea to have talks with our teens about the importance of hard work. However, teenagers are more influenced by our behavior than our words, I think. So, however they see us leading our lives – whether it’s work habits, relationships, whatever – will have more impact on them than our words. They observe us, as part of their own identity development.</p>
<p>Hmom, it depends what the motivational issue is.</p>
<p>Look around at your adult family members and friends- some work 17 hours a day with intensely stressful jobs; some leave the house at 8 and are in the door by 6; some work part time and love it, and some work part time and complain incessantly that they don’t make enough money, the government should pay a stipend to Stay at home Parents, etc. In my own office I manage people who will do ANYTHING to get the job done, and others who are competent but happy to get by with doing the bare minimum to keep their paycheck.</p>
<p>I have no issue telling the ones who are phoning it in that unless they ramp up their performance, they will find themselves with few options at review time. I also have no problem telling them very specifically how their performance needs to improve, change, etc. But I have never found it helpful to tell someone, 'you could be doing so much more and why aren’t you more motivated like your colleague X and why are you happy with the equivalent of a B+ when someone else stays all night before a deadline so he gets an A-?" This just doesn’t work in my experience. Last year I got to tell someone that his bonus was zero; he had been a good performer the year before so we increased the demands on him but he didn’t do what he needed to in order to earn a merit bonus. His response was that he was fine with that-- he had a comfortable life with his salary and benefits and wasn’t interested in “driving himself crazy” by staying until 11 pm like his co-workers and that the time with his kids was more important than the extra money.</p>
<p>Most of the folks on this board (it seems to me) would be happy to have a spouse like that. Balanced life, loves his family and volunteer work, capable, honest guy with solid values.</p>
<p>So how is this different from the HS kid getting B+'s instead of killing himself to get an A? The kids who will stay up all night to get A’s know who they are… and maybe these slacker kids know who they are as well. Grades, extra money, recognition- maybe these don’t do much for these people. They seek other forms of validation and maybe that’s ok. I think it’s great if you can figure out the forms of validation that work for these people and motivate them that way… but to tell a kid that’s getting B’s that if he did extra credit he’d raise his grade? Doesn’t he know that already? And does nagging get the job done???</p>
<p>blossom, that reminds me of something ds told me once when he was a freshman. We were talking about grades for some reason and he was talking about the kids whose parents made them work sun up to sundown and how they were so stressed and how one girl was crying in English because she made a B on a writing assignment – her second in a row. He said he didn’t want to live like that, that he “wants a social life.” </p>
<p>I guess he might grow up to be the guy in your office who doesn’t get the big bonus but who has a very rich, fulfilling life. Sounds good to me.</p>
<p>My d is a hard worker and a good student, but not top in her class in HS. She could have been if she had in fact worked harder in the classes in which she had little interest, but she didn’t - she didn’t want to have to cut down on dance, which she loved (and which she has no intention of pursuing as a career). So she didn’t take honors math or AP science. We talked about what that would mean in college admissions. Her response? “Mom, if a college won’t accept me because I didn’t take AP Bio or Calc BC, then it’s not a college I would want to go to anyway.” She did just fine in the application process and is very happy where she is.</p>
<p>I think most telling is to look at all your children (if you have more than 1). S1 probably never did an “extra credit” homework assignment in his life. He thought they were stupid and for the grade grubbers. S3 - same parents, same gene pool, same household - will do each and every extra credit assignment available to him and seriously ask for more and gets a preverse thrill everytime his cume grade score is in excess of 100 (everything over 100 if still a 4.0 at the end of the day so it doesn’t “mean” anything to have a 110). I lie awake at night wondering how my loins could have produced such wildly different boys but we did. Environment/genetics/parenting styles blah! It’s much more mysterious.</p>
<p>A couple of good points here from magicsmom: </p>
<p>"Teenagers are not the same as adults – when an adult child looks back and regrets high school choices and says: “Why didn’t you push me more?” to a parent, that does not mean that in reality he would have responded well to that pressure as a teen. He is looking back from a more mature vantage point. And, anyway, we shouldn’t beat ourselves up too much – we make mistakes, too. We’re not machines. "</p>
<p>To expand on the first point, I think when the adult kid says “why didn’t you push me more?” he is really talking to himself, whether he realizes it or not. Very rarely is the question a legitimate one as addressed to the parent. He’s really saying, “Why didn’t I respond better to your pushing?” Or, “Why couldn’t you magically transfer into my consciousness the deeper understanding of the implications of my situation that you had?”</p>
<p>And as for the “we make mistakes, too” part–I find it can be useful to remind my son, when we’re tussling over issues like this, that I am not an omniscient god but a schmo who has improbably been entrusted with guiding him toward adulthood, a status which I occupy precariously myself on the best of days. I will very likely push too hard at some times and not hard enough at others, but I am doing the best I can; I trust that he is also doing the best he can, even though this isn’t always obvious to me. We are muddling through together, and we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt even as we frequently, and necessarily, become royal pains in the butt to one another.</p>
<p>Every kid is different. Attentive parents know best, they just don’t like being so frustrated. </p>
<p>I never said a word to my daughters about high school academics - not a word in terms of homework or grades - although I did say their grades were their own. I don’t inquire about their grades in college - they tell me and openly profess their strengths and weaknesses, although not many of the latter. </p>
<p>They are outstanding students at the very top of the CC profile. </p>
<p>The house is filled with books upon books and we do have lots of conversations, some fairly challenging. But not focused on school. </p>
<p>I can only imagine if I had a boy like me. I would have had to completely redirect my approach. I worked hard in school when I had to - and the fact that extreme financial hardship made it a necessity. No such thing with my offspring, and I am quite certain that a male version of me would have had to be constantly prodded given the comfort level of life. </p>
<p>Blossom said “There are plenty of opportunities to “make good” on those slacker teenage years” but I disagree. There are a few opportunities for the lucky or very capable, but not many for most of us. It’s best to work to one’s fullest always.</p>
<p>Treetopleaf- there are successful people in all areas of life who were drop-outs, misfits, try-agains, or just the cheerful guy/gal who was happy-go-lucky and nobody thought they’d amount to much.</p>
<p>One of my own kids ran into a former teacher recently whose jaw dropped… and literally stood speechless when the kid told the teacher what he was “up to these days”. (Teacher was probably thinking kid was home on probation or was wearing an electronic monitor!)</p>
<p>It’s great if you’re lucky enough to parent a kid who is internally motivated, tries his or her hardest- always- and is “out there” winning awards in HS and is most beloved by the faculty. Sit back and enjoy the ride.</p>
<p>For the rest of us, try not to pull your hair out by the roots. I am still re-writing my kids Nobel prize speech in my head. “And to my Mom- the bald one over there- thanks for standing by me even when my middle school and HS teachers voted me the kid most likely to end up working the night shift in a fast food restaurant”.</p>
<p>“Treetopleaf- there are successful people in all areas of life who were drop-outs, misfits, try-agains, or just the cheerful guy/gal who was happy-go-lucky and nobody thought they’d amount to much.”</p>
<p>I agree, but LUCK plays into this, as well as native talent. I happen to think that the ‘successful in spite of’ folks were talented and lucky. The job market these days is not what it used to be, and looking to decades-old stories may not be all that useful.</p>
<p>Actually, it was quite simple. a) Either study your butt off and earn the best grades you can (and participate in the fun stuff of HS); OR b) get a part-time job. Both kids chose ‘a’.</p>
<p>In my organization, this employee would not survive. And that’s fair enough, some employers will accept this attitude and compensate accordingly and others will not take up space with him. I think the point is it’s a parent’s duty, IMO, with a smart kid not working to capacity to point out that there are fewer options and fewer rewards in life for a guy like your employee. If they accept the trade offs, great, but I think many kids and employees decide not to go the extra mile and are unhappy in the end with the appropriate rewards.</p>
<p>Hmom, from a personal perspective I agree with you- I couldn’t imagine not doing my best or trying harder to improve my performance. But that’s hard wired into me. I don’t disagree with your observation.</p>
<p>But the Q at hand is how to manage a kid who is not hard wired that way… and does “getting angry”, per the OP accomplish much besides kicking off an arms race at home? I say no. The guy behind the counter at my local Kinko’s has a brother who is a surgeon and a sister who is a partner at a major law firm. I’m sure his parents have logged many sleepless nights over their underachiever. But other than chaining him to a desk to study organic chemistry what recourse do you have? He’s happy; reads voraciously; wife has a steady job; they are rehabbing a junker house they bought; he doesn’t appear to have ever had trouble with substances or the law. </p>
<p>So I should lecture him on the importance of climbing the corporate ladder? He sees how his siblings live and I imagine has figured out that he won’t ever have the spread in Greenwich or take cruises to Sardinia. Will he have fewer options in life due to his limited finances? Of course. Is he likely to keel over from a heart attack at age 45 after logging 70-80 hour work weeks, plus incessant travel ? Not likely. So people make trade-offs.</p>
<p>Hmom5, I have not read all the posts, but I think that’s an unsettling thought. The idea that everybody “should” be pushing hard, all the time. I feel I have been that “give it all” employee, and have been the boss of some as well. Both in settings where there were many folks who could not, or would not “give it all”. In the end, I was the one who left, jaded and frustrated, while those who seemed more complacent stayed and survived. As I write this, I wonder if some work situations are ideal for that. On some level I envy, and maybe even admire them, while at times, I feel I’m often “tilting at windmills”.</p>
<p>When I was a senior my parents decided I needed to stay on home on Friday night so I could perform my best at my track meets on Saturday … I was an all-state level runner and they wanted me to max out at track. What I wanted to do was to go to a 7:00 movie and be home by 10:00 … I had figured out the best thing for me was to get out of the house and do something - anything to get my mind off the meets … and that staying home was actually worse for my track performance (never mind my social life). Why am I telling this story. So my parents laid down the law about not going out on Friday night to help me to do my best … I verified these rules were to maximize my track performance … and then told them I would respect their rule and I also was quiting track … this would respect their rule while allowing me to head out at night. Given that response my parents rethought their new rule. As a late teen my immediate reaction to restrictions was to rebel against them; especially if I did not have input or if my desires/priorities were not taken into account in the new rules. </p>
<p>As a parent I am trying to understand my kids point of view and influence them through example, information, and nudging … but at this point we have almost my way or the highway rules about things like schoolwork or EC selections … or their commitment to them.</p>
<p>I think it’s interesting that some seem to think the only way to get a gold star from the boss is to work 70-80 hours a week. I used to drive myself nuts at a job, spending lots of extra hours to try to achieve perfection. Guess what? I never was perfect, but the boss loved taking advantage of me and my people-pleasing nature.</p>
<p>Gosh, the more I read this thread the better I feel about ds with his mostly As. Maybe he’s learned something it took me 39 years to learn.</p>
<p>Because of my own experiences, I can’t let a kid fail without some kind of encouragement. Would I be mad if my HS kid didn’t do extra credit for a better A? Somewhat, but I’d point out the pros and cons and let them decide. If consequences aren’t too severe, then fine, let them flounder a bit, but don’t let them fail if you can help it.</p>
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<p>My kid was recalcitrant in that she’d rather not work hard, would rather let it slide. She’s had to work harder than others throughtout her schooling due to ADD and LD issues, so I’ve had to structure, encourage, tutor, monitor homework, limit TV, etc. from early grade school on. I like to think that what we did was push but not bully, encourage effort and reward successes, even when those successes weren’t on par with many of her classmates.
She would tell you ‘my mom made me…’ but as the end of senior year approaches, I notice that she’s proud of where she now stands. For example, she still struggles with dumb mistakes in math, but is secretly proud to be taking the first month of calculus.
Particularly when a child is immature relative to others, I think it’s a parent’s duty to set realistic incremental expectations, facilitate their attainment and celebrate (relative) successes.</p>
<p>Why do I think this? Because I live with the results when no one pushes the kid.
BIL dropped out of college. Guess who is making no money right now?
Brother who is very bright drives a truck. He blew off HS, then in his 30’s went to CC and got As.
I was able to attend flagship and get that degree w/o stellar grades in HS (poor 1st 2 years due to attitude/lack of encouragement), but I doubt that they would take someone with my grades today.
Father wasn’t encouraged and attained far less (money, stature, job flexibility) than he could have if someone had told him ‘finish college’. He was very lucky to have achieved what he did. Nothing remotely like what he experienced could happen to a non-degreed person today. Dad recently said my own kid is lucky to have the encouragement we’ve given, that his mom didn’t care how he did in school, or what he took in HS. Fortunately one teacher ‘made’ the talented boys (and one girl) take the hard math and science classes in HS. To imagine that no one should be pushing or encouraging young adults is unrealistic.
Some kids are afraid of being seen as - what, tools, sissies? Are we afraid to be seen as pushy parents? Yeah, it stings when DD says ‘my mom made me’ but someday I hope she is mature enough not to need that excuse.</p>
<p>I also realize that some mules just won’t budge…</p>
<p>Not quite the same…under my scenario, a Friday night movie would still be a rarity since my kid would be the one collecting tix at the theater, with no time to view the movie.</p>
<p>Not that it matters to the content of this thread, which has taken on a life of its own. But… I notice that eden’s a brand new user, with exactly one post (the one that started this thread), and “last activity” timestamp two minutes after the timestamp of the post. I think I smell a ■■■■■. I wonder if we were enlisted to make some kid’s case to his mom last night.</p>