Really angry at son - need some perspective

Parents Forum
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<p>Of course learning is more important than grades, owlice, but that doesn’t mean grades are wholly unimportant. Indeed, if you value learning, you should want to get good grades in order to gain access to the most intellectually stimulating environment possible. If a student wants to get into high level classes, he usually has to demonstrate competence in regular classes first. If a student wants to go to a good college - or, in some cases, any college at all- he can’t just shrug off grades as meaningless. Once he gets to college, he’ll need to do well if he wants to go to graduate or professional school, or if he wants to be competitive for certain jobs. The lifestyle paths that best suit the intellectually curious are far easier to reach with a record of academic achievement.</p>

<p>I think we also need to clarify what we mean by busywork. If teachers are telling kids they need to make a diorama illustrating a scene from Beowulf or fold lots of pieces of construction paper to model geometric shapes, that’s a waste of time. But if we’re talking about assigning comprehension questions or practice problems, that seems totally legitimate to me, even if the assignment is too easy for the student in question. If your child is such a genius that even the work in high level classes is way too easy for him, than maybe he needs to skip ahead to the next grade or supplement his work with college classes, but don’t blame the teacher for assigning a legitimate task. Generally, if a bunch of math problems, say, are that simple for a given student, he can breeze through them anyway.</p>

<p>I’m also skeptical of claims that schools are rewarding effort far more than achievement. In my experience, effort can only take you so far. Yes, there were times that effort might have gotten me an A- rather than a B+ in a class, but the bulk of the grade in almost any high school class is going to be based on tests, quizzes, and essays. Homework usually counts enough that a student can’t do well without completing it, but not so much that just finishing it ensures a top grade. I suspect that most decent schools run the same way.</p>

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<p>I agree with the above post. I took exception to the idea that homework is sacrosanct or that students should be getting As if they do the homework. I’ve seen my share of busywork and fluff. I remember spending a huge amount of effort over how to present a piece of writing. I ended up doing a triptych, embellished with a red cord, etc… The teacher praised my presentation, which led the rest of the class to imitate me. As for the actual content of that triptych, well, I can’t remember what it was. Forty years on, however, I remember how much I spent over how to present it.
I could tell similar stories about my Ss’ k-12 education.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say grades were wholly unimportant. Sure, good grades can be helpful – no doubt about it – but I don’t consider them to be the point of school. It appears some parents do, however; just saying I’m not one of them.</p>

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<p>My DS2 (child #3) is just like the one in the OP. He is a very pleasant and popular kid in school. His “gift” is one of personality. His smile is infectious and he has an ability to make anyone he meets feel at ease and welcome in a group. My DD1 and DS2 have gifts that are measured well with grades (or concert performances). I have had many parents compliment DS2 and lament that their child did not have the social gifts that he posesses. One such parent has a child at an Ivy. In the end - all of these kids will be o.k. </p>

<p>I have mostly quit worrying about the kid who is not interested in turning in the homework. My only fear is that it might translate into real life somehow (not filing a tax return because …etc.) Time will tell. If the kid is happy with life, then I believe that he is winning the game. I don’t necessarily think the 4.0 is always happy.</p>

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<p>“It appears some parents do…”</p>

<p>I think you will find future employers ALSO value the good grades.</p>

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<p>The adcoms value the good grades in challenging courses. “As” are not all equal. I’m sure employers have the same criteria. They also value employees who have initiative and some creativity. Especially when this creativity reduces drudge work.</p>

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<p>So do you list your high school GPA on your resume?? I do not. Never have, and for that matter, I never listed my college GPA on my resume, either.</p>

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<p>I’d be concerned that refusing to do simple tasks just on principle or because there are always better things to do is a sign of a lack of self discipline. I’d be ****ed if my kid, totally out of a sense of self importance, chose to not spend 20 minutes on a task that would produce an A over a B. It wouldn’t be because of the grade, however. It would be because of the attitude it represents. Most of us will be asked to attend to somewhat boring, less than challenging tasks at some point in our lives. If I had a choice to hire a person who attends to those details over someone who chooses to “get by” I’d go with the former.</p>

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<p>RE: Owlice138. Of course learning is the an important element. But it is incredibly frustrating as a parent to see a kid miss opportunities due to getting grades lower than they should because they aren’t doing their homework or extra credit work or whatever. For some families, this translates into higher college expensives as the lower grades mean lost honors college admissions at less expensive state U or loss of merit money. By the age of 16, kids are old enough to understand that sometimes you have to do work that is not super interesting in order to get where you want to go.</p>

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<p>I’d be mad at the teacher for insisting on busywork and would have something to say to the teacher-- or insist on getting another one. I do not consider busywork “learning.”</p>

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<p>I was one of those brilliant, creative, intuitive kids who got concepts on the first try and didn’t care for “busywork.” Know what I found out when I got older?</p>

<p>Washing dishes is busywork.
Taking out the trash is busywork.
Paying bills is busywork.
Balancing the checkbook is busywork.
Changing diapers is busywork.
Cooking, vacuuming, and laundry are busywork.
Grading papers is busywork.
Billing for private consulting services is busywork.
Filling the tank is busywork.</p>

<p>As an adult, I had to train myself to cope with “mindless drudgery” in order to handle all those little tasks that life demands. It wasn’t easy. There is something to be said for learning to work through boredom as a child. Just sayin.</p>

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<p>geek_mom: every single task you mention has a purpose. </p>

<p>Please tell me the purpose of doing more homework problems once you understand the concept the problems are supposed to be teaching?</p>

<p>I don’t consider “life maintenance” to be busywork. It is self-respect to keep a clean and healthy environment. </p>

<p>It is time saving to put gas in the car rather than run out of gas (and therefore it is efficient to do it). Balancing the checkbook… I’ll admit I don’t do it. I do check my balances every single morning, though. Never have found a bank error. </p>

<p>Cooking? well, eating is such a pleasure that I love to cook.</p>

<p>Vacuuming… I bought a Roomba. Haven’t vacuumed in about two years now.</p>

<p>Billing? Come on, you need the money; it has instant rewards.</p>

<p>Changing diapers? Well, that’s self-defense.</p>

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<p>I don’t vacuum, don’t particularly care to cook, and do other chores. But I do chores that have a purpose, whether it is to feed myself and my family, enjoy a clean and tidy home, neatly pressed clothes, and so on.
There’s purposeful though tedious work, and there’s purposeless busywork. Purposeless busywork is handed out by teachers with Napoleon complexes (no matter what their height), or teachers who lack imagination to keep their students occupied with meaningful tasks: “Oh, you’ve finished the problems I assigned? Do more.” (beats: “learn how to twiddle your thumbs.”)</p>

<p>My (French) high school transcript included, year in year out “stares out the window a lot.” But I usually was among the top 2-3 students.</p>

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<p>Sure, it’s frustrating, but parenting must (in my experience, anyway!) have its frustrations.</p>

<p>At some point, you stop pushing the kid; that point is different, I imagine, for every family, for each kid. At some point, the best you can do is explain the ramifications of the behavior to the kid. If the kid cares enough about going to the honors program at less expensive state U or merit money, the kid does the work to get the grade(s) needed. If the kid doesn’t care about the honors program or the merit money, the kid doesn’t, and the kid has to live with the natural consequences of his actions: state school without the honors program, working more, going to CC, whatever. </p>

<p>If the parent is dreaming of Selective Private U but the kid isn’t willing to do the work necessary to get into Selective Private U, parent needs to realize whose dream Selective Private U is.</p>

<p>I have a highly-capable kid, as in, great test scores and learns everything easily and well. Should he have an A in pre-calc? Not if he doesn’t do what’s necessary to get it. He’s certainly capable of it, but isn’t motivated to get the A; he’d rather use the 20 minutes each evening to work on a language he is creating, or draw, or read.</p>

<p>Fully 50% of his precalc class was covered in the accelerated math course he’d taken the year before. 50%, and it was designed this way! So even if he could zip through the homework, I think far too much of his time was wasted in this class, and though I never voiced that opinion to him, he obviously felt the same way. </p>

<p>He learned the subject. He had to take a math placement test for his college, and he’d have had to do so whether he’d gotten an A or not; he placed into calculus, which is what I expected him to do. I’m certainly not going to make him feel bad for getting a B in precalc instead of an A because he didn’t want to waste even more of his time doing work he didn’t need to do to learn the material.</p>

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<p>That made me lol!</p>

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<p>If you think you are getting busy work from your teacher, then you need to speak (negotiate) with the teacher about the homework. It is an attitude issue to just out right not do the work. </p>

<p>School is a lot more than just academic. It is a place one learns to cope with life, how to get along with people. I think parents are doing a disservice to their kids by telling them it is ok for them not to do what they have signed up to do because they are “too smart.”</p>

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<p>Yes, and the attitude may be “I’m okay with a B.”</p>

<p>My kid took the hit for not doing the homework; he got a B. He didn’t get a B because he’s “too smart;” he got a B because he didn’t do the homework. He didn’t “sign up” for an A; he signed up for pre-calc!</p>

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<p>I think that’s where the “fit” comes in - college, job, and future mate - it really depends on what people have signed up in life.</p>

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<p>oldfort, what on earth are you talking about?</p>

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<p>Well, S’s schedule could only fit a course for which he already knew 2/3 of the materials. So what grade did he get mid-term? B. Plus the teacher complained of his bad attitude, his sloppy work, etc… We talked to the teacher (she knew he knew 2/3 of the materials); she and he agreed that the would choose a project that was way more difficult than the rest of the class was expected to do. End of complaints from either S or teacher. S actually began to enjoy the class and think he was learning something (which he did on his own by doing research for his project). From busy work to meaningful work, from not learning anything to actual learning. Thank goodness the teacher was willing to craft a solution instead of telling S that the purpose of high school was learning how to cope with boredom.</p>

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<p>owlice - what I am talking about is there is nothing wrong with your son signing for a “B” because he didn’t want to waste his time in doing homework. In the future he will also need to find a job or a wife that would be happy with his pursue of higher learning(thinking), and not be bogged down with mundane/uninteresting stuff in life. Please don’t take it the wrong way that I am criticizing your son, that’s why I say “fit” is very important.</p>