Really Bad Prof....should I really stay out of it?

Parents Forum
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<p>Let me start this thread/question by stating that I teach at a junior college and I have a degree in science, so I am looking at this issue from multiple angles, not just through my "mom" prism. I am aware that in general it is completely inappropriate for parents to intercede when it comes to any academic issues involving their children, but I am at my wits end here and need some objective input. </p>

<p>My son is a freshman at a top engineering school. The average high school GPA in his major is 3.97 and the average ACT and SAT scores are 31 and 1350 (R/M) respectively. So while these may not be HYPMS level students, I think it is still fair to say they are very near the cream of the crop nationally. (Admit rate in his major was around 30%. ) </p>

<p>So, the issue: my son has a Chem I instructor who is both unprofessional and a horrendous instructor. So far this quarter, the lecture grade is based on three "midterms" and the average test scores are 52, 54 and on this latest test 49. The median has been within a couple of points either way on all three exams. The high score on the last exam was 82. I was skeptical about what son was telling me about the scores, so he let me see the information posted for the whole class in blackboard. About 1/2 of the students in the class attend the same 1 credit support workshop he does and he also attends a study group led by a graduate student (workshop is led by a different chem prof, I think) </p>

<p>Sons test grades have been 17-21 points above the average, so he has a low c in lecture. Combined with the 100% he is getting in lab (20% of their grade) he is getting a C+ now. But what about the kids who are getting the average grades in lecture (51% so far) and only 90% in lab? A student in that situation is going to have an average of 58.8%--clearly an F. </p>

<p>Son is getting As in computer science and a GE with tons of writing and a high A in Calc III, so I don't think this is a situation involving laziness. (But, I also understand that us moms are naive.) </p>

<p>He says there are a couple of students, that he knows of, who had AP chem in high school that are definitely struggling and freaking out. Son says that prof says at this point he is not planning to curve any grades. How can that be? Can he really give half of his class a D or F?</p>

<p>Add to all of this that son reports, and the prof's ratings and comments support his claim, that the guy uses a LOT of profanity in class and repeatedly tells students their questions are "stupid". Apparently, he is marginally better during office hours but his attitude still stinks. Can I post the link to his ratings here? I would love to do so. He is new (this is his 3rd quarter, I think), so there are only 13 ratings/comments but so far he has .77 out of 4 "stars" on this school's system. (I'd say the average for the department is around 2.75 stars.)</p>

<p>A comment in one of the recent ratings points out that this is a Chem I class and should not be a "weed out" course. Presumably, the students covered most of the material in either regular of AP chem in high school. I doubt that this is the first Chemistry class for any of these students. I could totally understand if this was Chem III or OChem maybe, but how much more could they cover in 10 weeks than was covered in high school chem in 40 weeks? As objectively as I can look at this from both my instructor AND mom point of view, I keep coming back to the fact that tip top science and math students should not be having this much trouble in a Chem I class. </p>

<p>Son and a group of friends are set to go talk to the dean after the quarter is over. They have a list of issues and examples they want to make the dean aware of. Son still has great hope of being able to get a B-, and he is afraid that if he approaches the dean now, there might be repercussions. </p>

<p>After a rough start to the beginning of the quarter, son has decided that he is very happy at this school, now plans to stay put (was seriously considering transferring for awhile) and has registered for Chem II spring quarter. I am happy that he is happy, but now I am worried about how well prepared he is for Chem II. </p>

<p>So, should I do anything? I think that after the end of the quarter it is probably too late. I see the big picture value of letting son handle this issue on his own and letting the chips fall where they may. But still, I paid $2K for this class and I think it is outrageous that this guy is putting these kids through this. What do you think? Is this a case where parent intervention with the Dean might be appropriate? What would you do?</p>

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<p>Chem I IS a weed out class on every campus. Sad but true.</p>

<p>What exactly do you think you are going to do? Let us know what you come up with and how it works out. ;)</p>

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<p>I would stay out of it. It’s hard to see him with a bad grade, but it’s his battle to fight. And do you really think that a dean is going to listen to a parent, unless that parent is holding a large check?</p>

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<p>FIrst, I would stay out of it. Seems like a really bad idea to me.</p>

<p>But if you have some idea you want to get involved I would think the person to ask about it is your son. If he is not 100% in favor of you doing this I certainly wouldn’t even think about it. </p>

<p>That said, has the professor given out some sort of curve showing what percentages correspond to which letter grades? Is it straight 90% A, 80% B, etc? Because, as I’m sure you know, a lot of courses are not graded like that. Are any students receiving As at this point?</p>

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<p>I would stay out of it but I would encourage my son to see the dean after the term is over.</p>

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<p>my chem class looked like this, as do a lot of my other engineering courses. it’s normal.</p>

<p>curving is an amazing thing, usually the average is curved to a B-</p>

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<p>^The OP said there would be no curving.</p>

<p>Don’t waste time trying to change the system through the department or Dean’s office. Just get out.</p>

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<p>Yes, you should stay out of it. Yes, this is a weed-out class. Yes, the Dean most likely already knows and may want to get rid of this professor.
Advice to the students in the class: document the insults and profanity. A quantitative measure of these would be useful for the Dean. Maybe a student could ask permission to tape the class (saying that he or she would like to review the tape later in order to study.) I wonder if this would modify the behavior.</p>

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<p>Have to agree that nearly all Chemistry courses at larger schools are indeed “weeders”. My son is a Biochemistry major, and he’s a very bright kid, and he’s had to slug his way through Gen. Chem. and Organic, fighting every step of the way. </p>

<p>But I empathize, OP, because we just went through a similiar test grade experience with Calculus III, where some nimrod instructor put material on an exam that was NEVER covered by any of the multiple Calc III class sections. I wanted so badly to go “Mama Bear” on someone, but I realized it was my son’s battle, not mine - so I complained to my husband and then zipped it. And a bunch, actually a WHOLE BUNCH of Calc III students complained, and the Math Department listened - the next test was more realistic - not easy, but at least fair.</p>

<p>It’s hard when your kids put it all “out there” and you feel like you’ve wasted time and money for this type of “education”. But, it usually works out in the long run. If your son is 17-21 points above the class average, he’s actually in a very good place.</p>

<p>Hang in there!!</p>

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<p>

Yes, but “no curving” does not necessarily mean the prof is grading on a 90%=A, 80%=B, etc. scale. When somebody says a class is curved, I generally infer that they mean the grade distribution will represent a normal distribution - a certain number of As, a certain number of Bs, etc… But the fact that a class is not curved does not necessarily mean a prof cannot set his or her grade cutoff points wherever they want.</p>

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<p>Chem I is a weed out class, as are all the early chem classes (D has a chem minor biochem). She had it explained to her this way, “When someone is dealing with chemistry, the tiniest mistake could actually KILL someone. It’s not a relative situation.”</p>

<p>You have to be dead on in chem and in engineering. Lives depend on it. This is why the grading in these majors is a totally different story than in other majors.</p>

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<p>Regarding the questions about the curve: that is my beef, which I didn’t adequately explain in the post. He has repeated, including again today when the 3rd exam scores were handed back, that there will be NO curving. He told the students today that he will NOT curve this test, or the final, and that he fully intends to fail (or give D’s to) the half of the students who have below a 70% right now. Son said 3 students left class today after the discussion about the test scores because there is no point in staying and taking the final since mathematically they can’t get their grade up to a C. </p>

<p>Again, as I said, I have a science background, have taken Chem I and plenty of other chem classes and I teach at the college level. Chem I might be a weed out class for students who have never had chem before or for “average” students. Chem I is NOT a weed out class for students who are"overacheivers" in the sciences, who are in the top 7-8% of all students in the US and for those who had Chem and/or AP chem in high school. If it is reasonable for 50% of the students at this school to fail Chem I, then 1) the engineering department would not have a 94% retention rate and 2) half the students in the other Chem I classes with other instructors would be failing and that is apparently not the case. </p>

<p>I believe that he will curve the grades in the end. There is some indication from the ratings that he has done this in the past, and I can’t believe that any administration would allow the instructor to fail half of the class. He’s totally power tripping and it’s REALLY inappropriate, unprofessional and unethical for him to let the students believe that he is going to fail them. As a faculty member, I am repeatedly told that my syllabus is a “contract” with the students and they should be able to use the syllabus to know where they stand academically in the class, so that, as I told someone in a private message, a student’s final grade is not a complete surprise. </p>

<p>Having said all of that, son told me that he and 2 other students have an appointment with the dean. According to the receptionist this will not be his first meeting on the subject this week, so I am going to let him handle it on his own.</p>

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<p>scubasue-- Regardless of what ANY kid did on a standardized test, or what they may have done in a high school YEAR LONG class, chem I is a weed out class.</p>

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<p>If it was the case that this should be a weed out class then students who are voluntarily taking the class, even though they tested out of it by getting a 4 or 5 on the AP chem test, would not now be in jeopardy of getting “weeded out”. In fact, you can test out of the first TWO Chem classes at this college with a 4 on the AP test. So, clearly it doesn’t make ANY sense that some of these students (my son’s next door neighbor in the dorm for one) are on the verge of getting a D in a class they already “passed” with a high score on the AP test. </p>

<p>According to son, a big part of the problem is that there are a significant number of questions on the test that they can’t understand. It’s not that they don’t understand the chemistry, it’s that they can’t figure out what in the world he is asking and they in no way resemble the review questions in the book or study guide.</p>

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<p>Your son should go talk to his advisor NOW, let him (or her) know what is happening, and ask his (or her) advice. The advisor should be in your son’s corner, and he (or she) may also be privy to inside information about the instructor in question. At the very least, your son will have lodged his complaints BEFORE the end of the term, which I think is important so it doesn’t just look like sour grapes. </p>

<p>The advisor may or may not be able to help in the situation, but I think it should always be the student’s first step.</p>

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<p>I agree with you that the professor is probably unreasonable and a bad teacher. That said, you should do nothing. Your son can complain after the course is done. All the students can do that. Should the university keep him on? Probably not but that is life. Even in highly rated schools, some classes are bad. In fact, I don’t know that incoherent questions or lectures are more common in lower ranked schools than in higher. After all, in a setting like community college, teacher effectiveness should be the only criterion. At a university, grant raising and research producing often comes before teacher effectiveness. In fact, teacher effectiveness may be quite down the ranking of importance for the university. </p>

<p>I know I went to a top ten school and we had some bad professors too. Fortunately, none were in my major nor in my husband’s but obviously they were in someone’s.</p>

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<p>My son had a really bad professor for Calculus 1 his freshman year in college. On the “Rate my Professor” website, on a scale of 1 to 5, she had a 1.2 rating. There were 42 entries with comments that nearly all said “worst teacher I have ever had”, “Failed more than half the class” “Horrible!”, “Who hired this woman and why is she still here?” and on and on. I saw enough from the papers my son brought home to be convinced she truly was terrible. As a father I agonized over what to do about it but in the end did not intervene. I was sure that the Dean was well aware of just how bad she is, is tired of complaints from students, parents and other academic departments on campus whose students have to take her class as a prerequisite for their courses and I am sure he would have loved to have gotten rid of her. The problem is that years ago she somehow got hired, then got tenure, has been around forever and now there is nothing the Dean can do about her. She is free to go on ruining the lives of aspiring mathematicians, scientists and engineers semester after semester for as long as she wants. I figured there was no point to me complaining to the Dean and adding to his misery over a situation he can do nothing about.</p>

<p>I am sure that practically every academic department of every college and university in the country has at least one professor like this and our sons have had the misfortune of encountering two of them. Fortunately, my son got through the course with a decent grade while a third of the class failed and it sounds like your son will get through his Chemistry class with at least a C and sometimes that is the best you can hope for.</p>

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<p>Yep, Military mom, I told son last night that unfortunately, this would not be the last bad prof he had, that there would be several more, and that eventually it wouldn’t bother him so much. Son will be OK–at the worst he is going to get a C in this class. I just feel really bad for the students that are going to get an F and don’t deserve it. Had they gotten any of a dozen other profs at this same school, they would undoubtedly be passing with flying colors, a fact confirmed by the lab profs (which are all PhD faculty at this school–I am hoping they are doing something about this situation!)</p>

<p>Got2BGreen: thank you so much for that advice! I have already passed it on to my son and am embarrassed that I didn’t think of it myself! That’s why I love these boards.</p>

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<p>I vote - ‘stay out of it’ even though I know it’s tough. He’s bound to encounter some awful profs and should have known that before attending any college (but that doesn’t make the situation any better). The choices are usually - </p>

<ul>
<li>Start by figuring out who the bad profs are and avoid them if possible. Not always easy to do.</li>
<li>If a truly bad prof is encountered, drop the class within the allowable timeframe and take it with a different prof next quarter/semester.</li>
<li>Struggle through it with the prof and just realize that grades will get affected by some of these profs.</li>
</ul>

<p>Realistically though, it’s ‘unlikely’, but not impossible, that this prof would fail (D, F) more than half the class. It’s not unusual in engineering and related classes for the test averages to be 45%, 50%, etc. The profs will usually do some curving so they don’t fail almost everyone. Generally, if one is scoring higher than the median, they’ll get at least a C+ for the course. (‘Generally’ is the key word here). </p>

<p>Good luck to him though. In the end he’ll likely do fine even though he might have bad memories of this prof and class. On the bright side, it’s likely taught him to pay close attention to which profs he signs up for in future classes.</p>

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<p>Kkarma…I somehow missed your question…interestingly I decided to come here and ask for opinions AFTER I had chatted with MY dean about this situation. She encouraged me to make a call. She said that she ABSOLUTELY has appreciated hearing from parents about unprofessional NEW profs in 2 separate circumstances. In both cases, parents indicated that the students were afraid to take action for fear of repercussions and phone calls from parents were the first she knew of a problem, and that in these two circumstances the issues warranted action on her part. She has been contacted by parents more than twice, but most of those calls were not worth her time. She did say that if a parent was just calling to complain about course content or something being unfair for a particular student she would write that off. Understandable.</p>