Really Bad Prof....should I really stay out of it?

Parents Forum
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<p>I, too, know it’s tough. Mom of Engineering student here.</p>

<p>Your son’s story could be repeated, with only mildly varying details, by tons of us Engineering/Science students and our kids.</p>

<ol>
<li>Your S will get throught it - possibly with a higher grade than it appears now; maybe not.</li>
<li>My S had a very similar story - eked out a C+ in said class. Worst grade he’s ever had; however it was the grade I was proudest of… he had feared failing; he took all of the steps on his own that he (and I) could think of to help him keep from failing - study partner, ofc hours, TA, bought a different text… As I told him at the time … he did not fold under pressure, he “worked the problem” and that is a life skill.</li>
<li>Your S already has hold of a way of handling the problem with his peers. Not sure what you would accomplish beyond what they plan to do. Ergo, I would stay out of it.</li>
<li>You didn’t say this, but I’m sure you may be worried aboutwhat this means for his total college career/what effect it might have on his GPA. That will probably all be fine - my S ended up with a fine (almost 3.5) GPA, had job offers and is launched on a successful career.</li>
<li>If you do decide to “get involved” (and I restate my vote along with many others that you do not), please do nothing until the term is over. Even that seems like a poor idea to me - what impression will it create among departmental faculty that mommy stepped in?</li>
</ol>

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<p>I feel bad for any kids in this guy’s class who are on scholarship with gpa requirements. One bad grade in the overall scheme of a college career isn’t awful, but for a kid getting that second semester of freshman year, that could be a real problem.</p>

<p>Ratemyprofessor has many problems as a data source, but I’ve told my daughter that messy data is better than no data – if a professor gets uniformly awful, terrible reviews, stay away. Take it a different semester, take it in summer school, find a different course – but don’t set yourself up for highly likely failure. I took plenty of engineering/CS courses where the median grades on exams were awful – I remember one where a 45 was an A-. But those professors used some kind of reasonable curve. I took classes that were tremendously hard, but there’s a difference between taking a hard class with really challenging material and a good professor, and a class that’s hard because the professor has no effective method of teaching or strange assessments.</p>

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<p>

Yup. Like I said, same story with almost no variation in my S’s case and I’m sure legions of others. Add to that prof with English language pronunciation problems, lack of apparent interest in his students, “rushing” student out of office hours when he arrives seeking help… Yours is not the first case; will not be the last. </p>

<p>And like uc____ dad said, sometimes it’s not even an option to drop and re-take with a different prof. In S’s case, this was the only prof offering this course - which he HAD to have. Stinks, but so it is.</p>

<p>Glad you are letting him handle it. Doesn’t make it any easier on you. I think it is harder on us parents sitting on the sidelines. Hang in there. We are all members of the same sorority/fraternity.</p>

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<p>“I feel bad for any kids in this guy’s class who are on scholarship with gpa requirements.” </p>

<p>I hadn’t even thought about that. Sigh. </p>

<p>I am not really worried about his GPA. </p>

<p>And, as I said, I have decide to go against my Dean’s advice and follow the advice of the parents here and my son, who had an surprisingly well formulated plan by the time I talked to him this afternoon.</p>

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<p>From your son’s scores his college is very competitive and he is in A WEED OUT type of major. All of these no doubt very bright students will not make it (sad but true). Although they all entered the class as A students, I am sure they were never pushed to their full potential. When I was in college (one that sounds similar to your son’s) math and science classes (for engineers) were generally curved with the average being a C. As you can tell, at least 1/3 of the students in these classes got D’s and F’s. </p>

<p>AP classes are taught by high school teachers (myself being one). We generally do not treat the students like college students–we give them extra support. AP is meant to give kids a taste of college level curriculum but with “high school” support. I am certain that the same course at a top level institution requires more of the student (time management, how to go about getting help when they are lost (can’t just go talk to my teacher at lunch), learning to speak up in class with questions (often very scary for a confused freshman), and how to anticipate what will be on the exam (what no hints?). If high school teachers tried to really push the kids, their GPA’s would suffer and the parent’s would come unglued!</p>

<p>I can remember those “questions that no one could understand” and it taking me some time to learn how to approach them (and a few C’s along the way).These " questions"are meant to see if the students have learned the material in enough depth that they can apply their knowledge to an unfamiliar situation. It is not enough at the level your son is at to just regurgitate review problems (that is usually considered C work).</p>

<p>Those kids that walked out–they were just weeded!</p>

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<p>I agree with Got2BeGreen, that voicing your concerns before the term is over is better than waiting till afterwards. There’s certainly no reason not to complain now about foul language, incomprehensible questions and to ask if there is some sort of policy about whether professors can fail half a class.</p>

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<p>I attended a top LAC, and never, never even told my parents my grades, never mind one test to the next! They paid the tuition, and I did the work and graduated - That was the expectation of course. And I would have been absolutely MORTIFIED had my parents ever called the school to complain, even if it was about the senile Russian history professor who really didn’t teach, but was famous, so everyone took the class, and settled for questions on exams totally unrelated to any lectures or reading! It was my job in college to be the adult, and “get it done”, without their help. I could call home and cry about frustrations, or whatever, and they were there to lean on and encourage me, but it was MY deal. I am glad you have decided to let your son handle things, and that he has a good plan. You stated that you teach at a junior college. Sounds very different from the top school your son is at. Apples and oranges in terms of the caliber of students and the pressure profs will put on those students at the respective schools. Your dean probably feels a need to somewhat coddle students at risk of dropping to keep her retention rates high enough. Top schools will always have students competing for seats.</p>

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<p>Mtnmomma: The median score in this class is 51%. So, half the class has less than 51 as their average during the last week of instruction. If this was normal and expected, there would be a similar fail rate in the other chem 1 class. Sons friends and the very high retention rate confirm that is not the case. </p>

<p>Additional evidence is that friends who got 4’s or 5s on the AP Chem test and skipped the Chem I class are doing fine in Chem II (or in one case, Chem III). </p>

<p>Chem I is sort of like Calc I. Content is basically the same regardless of the book. Instructional methods vary of course, but there isn’t much variation in content.</p>

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<p>The reason the top companies come and hire from the top schools is because at the top schools they still pursue the weed out procedure. So, you see, the top schools weed out even ‘top’ students, creating a “tippy top” situation at graduation, for which they are paid “the big bucks,” so to speak. Also, the same can be said in terms of acceptances to graduate schools.</p>

<p>Bad professors abound at tippy top universities because teaching is the least important thing they bring to the mix. The most important thing they bring is skill as a researcher. Skill as a researcher does not imply skill as a teacher. Good luck to your son. I’m glad he isnt in any danger of failing.</p>

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<p>So, what’s the problem? You say he’s already taken the course, and the material is the same, why the issues?</p>

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<p>It sounds like your son is handling things very well on his own. (A) He is managing to keep his own head above water in the class - with at least a C average, and (B) he is taking a stand and taking action, planning to join others to meet with the dean.</p>

<p>So I think your role as a parent is to support your son – tell him you are proud of him and think he is doing the right thing – and otherwise stay out of it. It’s his fight, not yours. I might have a different opinion if your kid was flunking the class and terrified of speaking up… but fortunately, that’s not the case. It sounds like your son is likely to do a very good job of articulating his concerns to the Dean, and probably in a way that will be more effective than anything you could do or say as a parent.</p>

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<p>To all those defending this as a ‘weed out class’ - the SAME course taught by DIFFERENT people at the SAME school does NOT have this problem. </p>

<p>And no, not all intro chemistry is taught at the ‘any mistake could kill a person level’ - or you wouldn’t have a lot of people qualified in basic science professions.</p>

<p>It is too late in this case, but I always recommend thoroughly checking the professor’s reputation before registering for a class. If there is any sign he is a jerk, don’t take it. If he proves to be a jerk anyway, drop it.</p>

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<p>"So, what’s the problem? You say he’s already taken the course, and the material is the same, why the issues? "</p>

<p>So, that is the red flag indication that there is a problem with THIS instructor, where there is apparently not the same issue with the other chem classes that his friends have. Fortunately, he has a C in this class and is very confident he can hold on to that grade, so there isn’t really much of an issue there. </p>

<p>This discussion is about the astonishing number of students the prof insists he is going to fail. Every single student my son knows has had either had Chem I in either first or 2nd quarter of their freshman year, or tested out of it based on AP scores. 1/3 of the students at this techy school are engineering students. Of the remaining 2/3, significantly more than half are chemistry, animal science, computer science, environmental science/studies, forestry, kinesiology, food science, crop science, food science, nutrition, etc majors. All are required to take Chem I. Bascially, students in the college of business or liberal arts which total 2500 of the 17000 students are the only ones are not required to take that class. </p>

<p>I am now giving away enough information, that you’ll be able to figure what school we’re talking about here: </p>

<p>Students at this school are admitted by major and with very few exceptions changing majors is NOT allowed (requests are approved 25% of the time if the major is in the same department). This means that for the most part, “weed out” classes result in drop outs or transfers. </p>

<p>So, if 50% is a normal weed out rate, this school would be out of students VERY quickly. </p>

<p>The first to second year retention rate is 92%. So, at most, the maximum “weed out” rate is around 8% then. Obviously there are a great percentage of that 8% who don’t return for reasons other than the fact that they failed a freshman level support class. </p>

<p>And, to whomever pointed out that we are talking about a different caliber of students than I deal with, I am well aware of that (or my student would be going to school here at a fraction of the price)…while academic expectations are WAY different at the two schools, basic expectations for professional conduct by the instructors are not different.</p>

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<p>i have a friend who is a plastic surgeon and have talked to him many times about the “do’s and don’ts” of navigating through the academic maze on the way to becoming a plastic surgeon. one of the first things he told me was never walk into a professors class blind. Know everything there is to know about the professor just because of situations like this. it takes strategy to navigate the pit falls and knowing which professors to avoid is key.</p>

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<p>Correction: I looked in the “accepted” column on the recent student profile, rather than the “enrolled” column. There were 1100 out of 3900 enrolled freshman in the college of business or liberal arts last year. I am now not sure how many total students that is in the 17000 undergraduate population, but the point is that only 1/4 of the undergraduates are not required to take this class. </p>

<p>Some of you are insisting that a weed out rate of 50% as the instructor in this class is threatening, is normal. By my calculations, that would mean that of the 2800 students who have to take Chem I, 1400 would have to drop out or transfer (since it would be virtually impossible to switch from a techy/science major to a liberal arts or business major where Chem isn’t required). OBVIOUSLY, that is ridiculous!</p>

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<p>smile…I have advised my son of the same thing…in this case, there were only a few comments at the end of fall quarter about this new professor, all bad, but my son promptly dismissed the posters of those comments as whiners. </p>

<p>In engineering there is not much leeway with the timing of these foundation course, especially if you need to graduate in 4 years. He was at the mercy of his low registration “rotation number” with regard to Chem I classes that were still open and by the time he realized there was going to be a real problem, it was too late to drop the course because of financial aid and dorm regulations. (you have to have a minimum of 12 credits to stay in the dorm, and he did check)</p>

<p>But yes, your friends wisdom is very good. My son and his classmates are SOOOOO jealous of their friends who got chem profs that they love!</p>

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<p>Nope. I believe that your son, if he earns a C will end up with a B, and that those who believe they are going to get D’s will mostly end up with C’s.</p>

<p>My D has had a mix of professors. By far the WORST have been the chem classes. The anxiety from not having any clue as to what the “real” grade will be, and ending up on the dean’s list every quarter.</p>

<p>I empathize with the stress, but it’s part of this major, is all I am saying. It is fairly common for someone who is astonishingly good at chem to be also astonishingly awful with people. Good teachers are good with people. A lot of the time these research grant types can’t translate what is in their head into a language others really understand. But, I’d be mildly surprised if your son’s grade isn’t fully one grade higher than he believes it to be as of today. JMO</p>

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<p>Just a couple of suggestions–there is generally an advantage for the students if they meet with a faculty member who is an adviser in the department, then (if necessary) meet with the chair, and then (if necessary) meet with the dean. This depends on the administrative structure of the university in question, but usually the department chair would prefer to hear about a potential problem before the dean does.</p>

<p>Also, the students should take along copies of the tests. If they start within the department, the person looking at the test will easily be able to tell whether there is a language problem (of the professor’s) or something else that is affecting the students. This can sometimes short-stop the problem. The dean might be able to tell by looking at the test whether there is a problem. However, it’s also possible that the dean might have taken Chem I 30+ years ago, and have a general recollection of the material, but perhaps not enough command of the specifics to detect problems. Or the wording might be “old-fashioned,” so it looks perfectly fine to the dean, but doesn’t match current texts. Someone in the department is more likely to recognize this.</p>

<p>Addendum: This depends on the university structure. My advice applies if the dean is the administrator to whom the chair of the department reports. Some colleges have deans who handle student issues directly–fine to go to them first (although, still, they may not recollect enough chemistry to detect the problems with the tests on their own).</p>

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<p>I have said many times that with very few exceptions the personality traits one needs to be a stand out researcher and are almost polar opposites to those traits one needs to be a stand out teacher. :slight_smile: That being said, this is NOT a research university…</p>

<p>Poetgirl…as I indicated in a couple of posts, I agree with you about the final grades…that is my beef…you and I both know there is VERY little chance this guy is going to follow through on his threats, but the fact that he is making them so adamantly is flat out unprofessional. Today, he was insistent enough that students who you and I believe very likely would have ended up with a C threw in the towel because he convinced them there was no way for them to get a passing grade. </p>

<p>Quant: Thank you. I emailed my son and insisted that before they take their letters and documentation to the dean, he should go see his adviser. I am not sure of the chain of command there, but I presume the adviser will best be able to tell him what to do…and you make a good point about taking copies of the tests. If I recall, he doesn’t have them, but I’ll ask. </p>

<p>If it wasn’t for this situation, I likely wouldn’t know my son’s grades. In fact, when he first started asking for advice, I didn’t believe that things were as bad as he was telling me, which is why he provided the evidence that was posted online. He had no idea what he should do, if anything, and I am glad he asked for advice, and that I was able to give him some and that I could pass on some helpful advice here.</p>

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<p>Wow, this bring back memories. Unfortunately, science and engineering students need to get through courses like this. They just do.</p>

<p>Here’s my suggestion for your son: When his test comes back with a shocking 32 out of 100, he should look around at his neighbors. If he sees a lot of scores in the teens and low twenties, he should just keep his head down and keep on grinding. For an A+, he should resist the urge to even mention it to his parents - needless worry!</p>

<p>That’s just the way it is for some of those classes. It won’t be possible to avoid them all.</p>

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<p>That’s exactly right. They want the students to step up and attack an unfamiliar question under stress. It’s a key engineering skill.</p>