Really? Does EVERYbody work that hard?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Harvey Mudd College
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<p>I'm new to this forum. My second son, a high school junior, is looking for a great engineering college. HM sounds like the perfect fit for him... with possibly one exception.</p>

<p>We don't want him in a school where he has to have his nose in the books 24/7. We want him to have a social life, some down-time, and time for his music (orchestra/viola). He wants these same things, but has a hard time envisioning his life ever being dictated by extremely hard academic work.</p>

<p>So far, his academics have come pretty easy to him. He does his homework, studies for tests, is conscientious about his research papers. But he doesn't use much time to do any of the above -- especially compared to his peers and siblings. He always has a considerable amount of free time. So I'm not sure he's realistically prepared for the kind of thing we keep reading about regarding HM and the Ivies. (He doesn't think he wants the Ivies anyway.)</p>

<p>He takes the PSAT next week. He’s been scoring in the high 230's on the school’s administered practice tests. He takes the SAT in November. He takes all AP courses and has earned 5’s on tests taken. He’s currently ranked #2/806. He goes to a large public with a rigorous curriculum.</p>

<p>He loves every subject with the exception of biology -- hates dissecting things. Math is by far his strongest suit -- he was two different teachers' only student ever to make straight 100s throughout their courses. He wants to major in engineering, not sure which type yet. One of the reasons HM looks so good to us is the great breadth of academic experience – liberal arts and sciences.</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure HM has lots of students like my son. So my question is this ... does EVERY student really work as hard as they say? Or are there some kids, possibly like my son, who manage the course work in a reasonable amount of time each day/week, and still have time for fun, socializing, and outside activities (like orchestra)? If there ARE “some,” roughly what percentage might you say? (He’ll want to be around others who feel like they have the time too.)</p>

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<p>If your son does engineering, then yes it really will be that bad if he wants to get good marks.</p>

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<p>I went to visit Scripps recently, and stopped by Harvey Mudd just to see it, because all the Scripps girls mentioned Harvey Mudd. I’ve also seen a HM presentation (with the other claremont colleges) and here’s what I’ve figured out:</p>

<p>1.) Yes, they really work that hard. (Most math/sci/engineering schools do.)
2.) HM requires a concentration outside of the regular field. Music could be it, or english, or linguistics, or sociology or whatever.
3.) Scripps girls mentioned several times the traditions between them and Harvey Mudd boys (Boys give them flowers from the rose gardens, there’s a high marriage rate betweent the two schools…) So there is a dating social life.
4.) Getting off HM and onto another claremont campus is superbly easy, and most of the HM boys I saw were at the Scripps dining hall.</p>

<p>and finally:</p>

<p>5.) The one thing I learned in my short time there, is that Harvey Mudd likes a good party. In fact, they throw the first party of the year traditionally called Disorientation. And when I went onto the Harvey Mudd campus, they were indeed throwing a party. It didn’t look <em>too</em> wild, I didn’t spot giant keggers or anything, but there was music, and fun going on. </p>

<p>I think it should stay in the running.</p>

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<p>Of the things you mentioned, down-time is the hardest to find, if you want to really get to do other things too. People here find a balance, and it’s more than possible to find one between work and play. People here do much more than academics, without a doubt, but they have to make sure they’re structuring their time decently.</p>

<p>So to answer your question, a very large percentage does precisely that, and if you want to socialize, you will find time and people to socialize with. Harvey Mudd has a word-hard/play-hard mentality, there’s always fun stuff to do if you go looking for it.</p>

<p>And if it makes you feel any better, I did mostly the same in high school in terms of coasting through things and not having to expend considerable amounts of time on things. However, it’s fairly easy to make the switch here, as everyone has the same amount of work to do, so we all end up working in groups and getting things done. I’m doing alright with the amount of work here so far because of it.</p>

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<p>braden,
It does help to hear that you were the same way in high school, but that the switch to HM was manageable and you’re finding time for other things. </p>

<p>And thanks, yurtle, for sharing your experience on your visit.</p>

<p>I’m not sure if my son is really looking for “work hard, party hard” as much as he’s looking for a balance – like work hard, relax and enjoy life a little bit every week.</p>

<p>I think we’re going to have to head out for a visit sometime soon. It does sound like it should stay on the list for now.</p>

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<p>If you visit Mudd, try to arrange for your son to sit in a class or two. My son learned a lot doing so. Many schools are not willing to let you do so until accepted, but at Mudd they just handed us a printed scheduled and encouraged him to pick what he wanted.</p>

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<p>Simple Life: From what you wrote about your son, I think he will do just fine even though HM’s courses are known to be hard. The reason being that your son is already a very smart and hard working individual. He probably will enjoy the challenges that HM provides and still have free time to enjoy campus life because I would imagine that he has great time management skills.</p>

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<p>Thanks, quest4success, for your vote of confidence. That’s what we’re trying to gauge prior to applying (or even visiting). I’d sure love to hear from some more HMers who were like my son in HS, whether they worked their butts off at HM, or whether they found they had a good balance of free time and work.</p>

<p>Thanks to you, too, colorado_mom, for your advice. We’ll be sure to sit in on a class if we visit! (We just recently did this at another school, and it was so enlightening!)</p>

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<p>He sounds smart enough to do all right. He probably would not be in the 10% that are not smart enough, are thrown out after working like a slave 24/7, and having their life destroyed.</p>

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<p>I am sick of hearing this crap about time management skills. Harvey Mudd takes a bunch of super smart kids, thrown a huge amount of material at them, has a bunch of uncaring teachers and staff who are not culturally open to those not like them, and then destroys a few of them after labeling them unworthy or lazy.</p>

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<p>“I am sick of hearing this crap about time management skills. Harvey Mudd takes a bunch of super smart kids, thrown a huge amount of material at them, has a bunch of uncaring teachers and staff who are not culturally open to those not like them, and then destroys a few of them after labeling them unworthy or lazy.”</p>

<p>The professors really do care. Almost all have open-door policies and are more than happy to talk to students not only about school work but about life in general. I think your view of HMC is quite skewed based upon the stories you are hearing from you child.</p>

<p>Also, what does culture have anything to do with this? Are you insinuating that professors are racists or don’t respect people’s cultures? What cultural clashes has your kid had?</p>

<p>“Culturally not like them”. Wow. This is a loaded phrase. Way to be racist and lump everyone into a single stereotype. Reverse racism is awesome.</p>

<p>Here are the facts: In America no one is like anyone else. We are all different so quit the compartmentalizing and deal with problems on a case-by-case basis. You may call me a typical white guy but there is much more to my history… say oh, 6 million genocide in WWII.</p>

<p>Based upon my recent 4 years at Mudd, I don’t buy this “professors don’t care” or “there is no cultural acceptance” crap. While HMC is definitely not perfectly culturally diverse, it attempts (in my opinion too much) to bring cultural celebration to the campus.</p>

<p>There are no TA, only students who wish to tutor and help out other students. They don’t get paid enough to do it purely for the money… they love helping and thus I think the problem there is your child’s attitude.</p>

<p>No more excuses. Either mold your mind or fall behind.</p>

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<p>Again, BicoastalMamma, the profs here are shockingly caring from what I’ve seen, and have confronted me personally about not working so hard when I’m sick or seem swamped. They have taken personal interest in making sure I balance personal life and work, and have made every effort to accommodate students. I find it highly improbable that your child is a special case that the profs all ignore.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the inputs. I was thinking that Mudd is a tough school, but a place where struggling students would not fall through the cracks. Glad to know that is generally the case.</p>

<p>I’m hoping so much that Bicoastalmamma’s son feels better soon and finds a way to leverage help resources.</p>

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<p>Yes, I call it racism when you take kids from bad schools, bad preparation, and bad course work who are sick and the math prof’s only help and suggestion is work harder and more. I asked about what help there was for a inner city student before I let my child enroll and they told me there was help and there isn’t any. Maybe, the problem is my child does not know how to demand the way other richer and better educated students do, so he is easy to get rid of by the profs. Besides, they already told him they are afraid to catch the flu from him and don’t want him near them. I cannot really blame them for that. Yes, it is racism when you roommate does not talk to you at all, fusses about the room arrangement and spends all his time with people from his country. If rocketDa went to a Jewish day school, then he was taught math properly and traditionally and not the board of ed’s latest consultant’s theory of the week.</p>

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<p>I wonder if BicoastalMamma is real or is just looking to bash HMC. We have explained things to you in every which way possible but your responses just don’t make sense.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=tiyusufaly]

I wonder if BicoastalMamma is real or is just looking to bash HMC.

[/quote]

Hmmm… Let’s review…</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Joined in January, 2009.</p></li>
<li><p>Supposedly had extreme misgivings during pre-frosh season about her son’s chances of success, yet never posted a question here.</p></li>
<li><p>Never posted a question here, in the Parents’ Forum/Cafe, or elsewhere about supporting her sick son from afar.</p></li>
<li><p>Began posting about a month ago. Eighteen posts total. All drive-by posts on this forum, making wild accusations at Mudd.</p></li>
<li><p>No responses to posts from other members asking how we can help. No acknowledgement of specific advice and contact information offered by other members.</p></li>
<li><p>General assertions in the drive-by posts do not match the experiences of any member who’s responded here, including students, parents, and staff. Nor common sense, for that matter.</p></li>
<li><p>Specific assertions in the drive-by posts do not square up with known facts (sorry I don’t have permission yet to explain my statement about the lack of extension requests on the frosh physics midterm, will share if permission is given).</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Yup, sounds like a ■■■■■ to me.</p>

<p>Or it could be a genuinely distraught parent whose son has been selling her a bill of goods, who also refuses to take any personal responsibility or constructive action. Had she contacted the Academic Affairs folks at any time, I’m highly confident that she would have received a very prompt response.</p>

<p>But this individual has expressed no interest in potential solutions. The behavior has been sign in, post a handful of Mudd-bashing messages on several different threads, then sign out (e.g., “she” just spent a grand total of ten minutes on CC).</p>

<p>That is not the behavior of a mother who believes that her son is in danger of fatal illness due to overwork – or even that her son is “merely” in danger of flunking out of college and having his life ruined. It is not the behavior of a mother who wants to know what sort of options are available for her failing son to salvage his first year at Mudd or his academic career.</p>

<p>It is the behavior of a ■■■■■.</p>

<p>IMHO the priority here is to identify and locate the student, if he exists and is genuinely struggling, in order to ensure that he receives the help he needs. That should not be done in this public forum (hello FERPA), but privately by the mother in contact with the Office of Academic Affairs. If the student is identified, he will be helped.</p>

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<p>My posts make perfect sense. Tiyusufaly’s ad hominem attack does not. RocketDa – being too sick to stand up should be an excuse to postpone or makeup an exam.</p>

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<p>^ One more time. No student made a request to “postpone or makeup” the freshman Physics midterm. BCM, your posts are in fact making more and more sense to me.</p>

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<p>geek_mom-- Why is it your business if I want to warn other parents whose kids attend bad high schools. Maybe, the administration will help my son after midterm grades are in. Maybe, I will have to go out there and put him in a hospital. Maybe, the profs and administration are afraid of my son because he is so sick that they don’t want to deal with him. I can understand that with H1N1 sitting over the world. I am here to warn parents who have bright children going to bad schools, that do not teach math, physics, computer science, english and chemistry well, that HMC may not be the right school. For that matter, I am warning bright students who do not have good teachers and classes.</p>

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<p>geek mom-- someone posted on another thread that student were allowed to reschedule tests or something do to illness. I just posted to warn how difficult this school is if you don’t have excellent preparation. That is all. I thank all the people who sent me private posts that were useful. Adios. Let us pray that no students die from the flu this year.</p>