<p>I don't think that most schools' alumni interviews matter at all - bad or good. I do think that Harvard's does consider them ... certainly not the end-all, be-all of the application by any means.</p>
<p>My daughter's best alumni interview was for another Ivy that she did not get into - one that clearly says that there is a strong benefit to applying ED which she did not do.</p>
<p>I well remember Morgantruce because he was active here when my first child was starting this process. My kids indeed sent cover letters with all of their applications. As well, Dave Berry, who is a principal college counselor at CC wrote in his book, America's Elite Colleges, about using cover letters as well. </p>
<p>InterestedDad did discuss the wise point of having "marketing points" which is not what he called them necessarily, but he may have called them "bullet points" that describe a candidate and these points should drive the application. My kids plugged certain points into the resume and others into the essays and the total package showed who they were in sum. Expressing very specific interest in each college is also important and some schools have a Why X College Essay but some don't and this also can be covered in the cover letter. Is it a must? Not if you don't want to. But expressed interest that was genuine was conveyed in very specific ways by my kids in some place in their package. </p>
<p>I can't speak for interviews at other colleges but I do believe they are a consideration at the school for which I interview. A lot of time and devotion is put into letting interviewers know what to ask and a lot of time is put into the organization of the interviews and I put loads of time into my reports. The school discusses with the interviewers what makes an effective report that is helpful or not. If they didn't bother to read these, they wouldn't put so much into all this with the interviewers about the reports and all. The interview doesn't get one in and it is not taken against someone who doesn't have an interview. But it can be a tip factor if the interview backs up what other documents portray, such as the recs. The interview allows a personal side of the applicant to be shown. It can be a supporting document. If the interview contradicts everything else in the folder, it likely isn't considered to be relevant enough. But it surely can be helpful in some cases. A couple of my D's schools did not interview and she still got in. But she also got into almost every school she interviewed at (but Yale). Funny, but well after she went to Brown, I "met" her interviewer right here on CC! We pieced it all together.</p>
<p>Quote: "For example, if someone made it to a national competition, there's no point listing minor district level competitions on the way to that national. "</p>
<p>I don't agree with that in all cases either. For example, in my son's case, he qualified for the "National Tournament of Champions" in debate, which is the most prestigeous national tournament that has a very specific formula for qualification. In order to qualify, you have to achieve at a certain level at at least two important tournaments (when you do, you get a "bid"); depending on the size and prestige of such tournaments, you may need to be in the top 16, or 8 or 4 to get a single bid. But in my son's case, he actually won several of those tournaments, and was also named "first speaker" in many others, which is a separate but also prestigeous designation. So, if he had simply indicated that he qualified for the national tournament, no one would know what he had really accomplished. And in addition, some of these achievements took place when he was a freshman or sophomore, competing with juniors and seniors. Again, this is significant and in my opinion, adds to the strength of his profile.</p>
<p>And oh, by the way, Marite, what I meant about your son's more minor acomplishments adding to the impressiveness of the major ones is simply that, as you said, he wasn't holed up in his room all the time, focusing exculsively on math. He was able to achieve at such a high level in math while at the same time pursuing a bunch of other things.</p>
<p>yeah definitely agree with donemom on this one. national debate tournaments arent minor</p>
<p>""For example, if someone made it to a national competition, there's no point listing minor district level competitions "</p>
<p>Donemom, please note that I wrote "minor district level competitions, on the way to that national." and that this applies to competitions that have a broad based participation. Examples of this are soccer competitions where a team cannot reach the national championship without winning ONE of the four regional championships, and obviously winning the right to participate in the regional by winning state.</p>
<p>Since we were discussing economy of space, it would be rather obvious that a national champion won the regionals (since only four teams move to the mational) and that they earned a spot to the regionals by winning one of their state championships. This is the type of listing that is excessive:</p>
<p>2005 National Champion
2005 Regional Champion
2005 State Champion - Premier League
2005 District Champion
2005 Podunk City Champion
2005 Podunk Recreational League Champions</p>
<p>This is different from this one</p>
<p>2005 National Champion
2004 Regional Champion (highest for that year)
2003 State Champion - Premier League (highest in 2003)
2002 State Champion - Junior League</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>I had in mind Xiggi's interpretation. If you qualified for IMO, there's not a lot of point, in my opinion, in listing that you scored high on the AMC, AIME and attended MOSP. This information is subsumed in the IMO.</p>
<p>Yes, I see what you mean. But I just wanted to show, for the purpose of advising others, that in certain situations, qualifiying for a higher level of competition doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. (and even with your example, Marite, in my son's case, his score on the AMC not only qualified him for the AIME, but received a specific national "honor of distinction" because of being in the top 1% or something. So, just saying he qualified for the AIME again didn't cover it. However, I think we can all agree that in editing a resume, one should continually ask oneself the question: what new important aspect is this entry demonstrating?</p>
<p>BTW, an excellent source for doing these is Katharine Cohen's book Rock Hard Apps. And speaking of college consultants , no matter what you may think of the concept, the best of them ARE up to date, in the loop, and knowledgeable about what the colleges are looking for. I don't believe they would still be recommending this if their sources were telling them that most of these schools were anywhere near getting annoyed by the practice! </p>
<p>Since some of you have brought up the topic of alumni interviews and activity lists, I wonder if a particularly impressive resume (one that adds relevant info not found elsewhere) much like a particularly impressive interview, can be a tip, a poorly done one won't help or hurt much, but the lack of one will certainly NOT keep you out (it couldn't since they are not requested as people have pointed out), all else being equal. It also occurs to me that just as some schools do not have the resources or the time to interview everybody, the admissions offices may not want to give the idea that everyone should go ahead and do a resume, for the simple reason that if everyone were to do so, they may not have the time or resources to read them at THAT point! In addition, though not referring directly to a resume, many of the apps that we saw did seem to be making reference to the way additional material should be submitted should more space be required. </p>
<p>Again, it behooves the student to use discretion, and make sure that the school will accept these and in what form. But as a way of expanding on the questions asked in the app itself, the brag sheet, resume, activities brief or whatever you want to call it can, IMO be a valuable tool.</p>
<p>
<p>What people say they do is very different from what they really do. Human beings may start out fresh in the morning, but by 4 pm if they have only made a dent in a mountain of applicaitions they still have to read, they will take shortcuts. </p>
<p>I practiced law for almost 20 years, and every time I went to argue a motion or appeal, the judges always started out by announcing that they had read all of the papers submitted, and then asked if counsel had anything new to add. And in any case that was at all complex, as soon as the arguments started it was obvious that the judges had not read everything there, because invariably some lawyer would mention something that was spelled out in great detail in the pleadings... and the judge's questions & responses would make it clear that they had either missed the point entirely when reading, or else they hadn't really read what they said they did. </p>
<p>I doubt that college ad coms are more scrupulous in their work than judges.</p>
<p>When busy people who must read a lot of material say they have "read" something, it means they have scanned or skimmed or glanced or leafed through. It is not humanly possible for people to carefully read the volume of material that is required. </p>
<p>What an ad com tells you that they do is not the same as what the pressures of real life dictate. </p>
<p> [quote=marite] Math 101 means something different in some colleges than in others (in his case, it meant something quite quite different from "introductory." So, not only did he list the courses, he provided a catalog description.
Why wouldn't a course title suffice?<br>
Example:
"Math 101 - Differential Calculus"</p>
<p>Calmom: </p>
<p>In many cases, the course title is sufficient. In others, it is not enough to deduce the level of difficulty. For example, one would have to understand how the Harvard catalog describes the following courses in order to judge the different levels of difficulty:</p>
<p>Math 23: Theoretical Linear Algebra & Mutlivariable Calculus
Math 25: Honors MV Cal & LA
Math 55: Honors Advanced Calc & LA. </p>
<p>More important, these titles do not give a sense of the topics that are covered. </p>
<p>In the case of Math 101, the important thing was not the topics covered, but the fact that it was an introduction to proofs. Different departments may choose to introduce proofs through different topics. In fact, when my S first considered a course to take, there was another one which also served as an introduction to proofs.</p>
<p>"BTW, an excellent source for doing these is Katharine Cohen's book Rock Hard Apps. And speaking of college consultants , no matter what you may think of the concept, the best of them ARE up to date, in the loop, and knowledgeable about what the colleges are looking for. I don't believe they would still be recommending this if their sources were telling them that most of these schools were anywhere near getting annoyed by the practice!"</p>
<p>I'd wager a couple of dollars that the big-bucks lady's "sources" are getting scarcer by the day. Being identified as one of her clients may very well be the ultimate kiss of death. Not all college consultants are bad or over the top, but people such as Cohen and Shaw, with their unethical and highly questionable tactics, are not doing legitimate counselors any favors. </p>
<p>Glorified packagers such as Cohen only exist because there are people with too many dollars or too little sense. As far as her books, it would be a mistake to consider them timely or accurate.</p>
<p>I can certainly attest to the fact that there are significant differences between those levels of math that Marite is referencing from Harvard. In fact, I'm already wondering, when my son applies to med or grad school, whether they'll know simply from the course name or number that he took the most advanced version of his physics topic this past semester. (I guess I see another resume in his future!)</p>
<p>And as for your point, Calmom, about how much the admissions people actually read, in my mind, it probably goes like this: first, they look at academics, scores, and the like, to see if the student is in the ball park. If not, they don't have to read through every last detail. If so, they start to look more closely at major activities, essays, and recs. And if the student is then still in the running, they would certainly take the time to look through a resume, which, if well constructed, is easy to "scan, skim, or leaf through." If you read (and believe) the article I referenced earlier in this thread, when it comes down to final decisions, there is significant discussion and debate, indicating a thorough knowledge of what those students would bring to the class.</p>
<p>Well, maybe they help, and maybe they don't. None of us really know. But I have to say, if they do make the difference you explain there--giving admissions the "thorough knowledge" of a student necessary to make final decisions--then that's a dang shame, and a slap in the face of every student who merely, and likely with much thoughtfulness, completed the application as requested.</p>
<p>So, though I'm sure your kids were not hurt by creating these, I don't buy at all that they were necessary. And I really hope they weren't.</p>
<p>Sigh...once again, there is no such thing as "completed the application as requested" as regards resumes, because, for the majority of schools, there are no instructions one way or the other. And for sure, a resume is not necessarily helpful for every qualified student. But, as an example, if you go back to Tarhunt's post #10, it seems like it would/could have been extremely useful in that student's case.</p>
<p>Overall, I guess I just feel that it's pretty sad that the party line here is that you're nuts if you don't do it--just another way to make people feel insecure and jump through some more hoops, with no real evidence ("my kid did it and got it in" is not evidence) to back it up..</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>In a lot of cases, the space provided is enough and it would be silly to provide a resume to restate the same things as in the application form. In other cases, however, the space provided is simply not enough. </p>
<p>Donemom:</p>
<p>You make a good point about the regional award. I had not thought of that.</p>
<p>Donemom--you're not understanding me. I didn't say it was against the rules; i said it's not part of what is asked for, as if what is there can't be enough. That's not the same thing. (I'll refrain from "sigh"ing.)</p>
<p>Marite--enough for whom? Maybe the schools think that whatever you can squeeze in there is enough for them.</p>
<p>Xig, Well, even if one feels that way about her, she DID design a nice brag sheet! Also, she's not the only one recommending these, as Susan points out!</p>
<p>You're only nuts, IMO, if you make an arbitrary decision, rather than critically evaluating what things are important for the schools to know about the "complete" you, and then making very sure that those things are clearly communicated.</p>