<p>
[quote]
By this I mean something akin to the geographic boost, like how students from Iowa might have a better shot than a student from Manhattan.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are making a wrong assumption that every one who lives in Manhattan has $$ which is definitely not true as there are manypeople living low income public housing projects in Manhattan.</p>
<p>But don't you think there will always be a stigma whether there is Afirmative action or not. One program replacing the other does not change the perception. Colleges are still recruiting for diversity. The colleges that D applied and got accepted to she was well qualifed for by her own merits.</p>
<p>Thanks lmpw, but Amherst is too small for me. I want a big school where I am just a number. Kind or wierd, but it is what I want.</p>
<p>why do you just want to be a number? Don't you want to be some place where you'll stand out, have close relationships with your professors and classmates. If you're at a university with graduate and professional schools, this will be much harder to do. But, you know what you want so good luck.</p>
<p>sybbie, I really agree with your earlier comments (#545). Thanks for posting that. </p>
<p>Frankly, I think this whole business of the privileged and/or gifted, well-rounded, etc., getting offended due to being identified for a given program based on race is a symptom of being detached from certain realities. </p>
<p>As a demographic, AAs are virtually on the bottom of every statistical rung. Whether the topic is employment, healthcare, mortality rates, education, you name it, we are almost always bringing up the rear. Yes, the Lord has blessed a number of us aplenty, and for that I give thanks daily. That doesn't change the fact that we remain statistically in a state of crisis. Not all of us, but certainly enough to place us below most other groups. Looking at the numbers, it is hard to think these circumstances will improve without some level of intervention. </p>
<p>Whether genuinely or because of politics, certain institutions recognize this, and unlike some of the more fortunate among us, they have endeavored to lend some assistance. Do they execute it perfectly? No. Sometimes they cast a net far too wide. Sometimes their efforts do unintentionally create a stigma, even feeds certain sterotypes. I understand that. But I completely reject the notion that such efforts warrant contempt by those not needing the help. </p>
<p>The schools are in a catch 22. They understand that there are many in the AA community needing to be reached out for, but they don't know everyone's individual life story. Their marketing approach is not always sophisticated. So yes, some AA students from well-to-do families, or who may already be on the right track, may get a displaced phone call, a piece of mail, or even be approached personally as institutions attempt to expand awareness about the programs they offer. But it's not a big deal. It's not a personal indictment, nor is it racist. It says nothing about you, your record, or other's expectations of you. It just means you were misidentified for their program. I keep getting warranty solicitations for a Dodge vehicle. Am I to be insulted considering I drive a much more expensive luxury car? No, I just pitch it knowing they sent it to the wrong address. </p>
<p>My point is that we should be cognizant enough about society beyond our own specific environs to understand that while we may not need the help, there are lots of others who do. So instead of wasting energy taking offense, why not count it a blessing we don't need it, and as NYC said, pay it forward to someone you know who does? Although lots of us are experiencing profound success these days, there's only a few degrees of seperation from those with profound needs. There's no reason to pretend otherwise.</p>
<p>Couldn't have said it better... I tried but I just kept deleting it....</p>
<p>Hmm Flvdad that is interesting. I thought that many people were already aware of all the programs out there and college and stuff. I kind of always knew that I was going to college, but I suppose there are those who do not. But I would think that with the internet a great amount of information is more easily accesible via a google search.</p>
<p>At lmpw, I want to be a number because I like doing things on my own. I have always tried to do things myself even in elementary school I would do my own projects and do not really want other people's help. Needless to say, I am not a very good team player (unless I am the leader :)).
The small school thing is a turnoff because I like big things. Being from Texas I am so accustomed to large things, like when the band went to San Fransico the houses and yards were SO small and expensive for the size. Million dollar homes were about a third of the size of my house that is far from that price. </p>
<p>But aside a side, Amherst and small schools do not have as much of the research dollars as I would like, I really want to be involved in science research during my undergrad years. Thanks though, I know you mean it for all the right reasons.</p>
<p>I took one of those internet bias quizzes to see which presidential candidate i have a base preference for and I was surprised. Apparently, though I am a McCain supporter, I have an innate preference for Barack Obama. I wonder why?</p>
<p>FLVDAD, I agree very much with this quoteof yours "The schools are in a catch 22. They understand that there are many in the AA community needing to be reached out for, but they don't know everyone's individual life story. Their marketing approach is not always sophisticated. So yes, some AA students from well-to-do families, or who may already be on the right track, may get a displaced phone call, a piece of mail, or even be approached personally as institutions attempt to expand awareness about the programs they offer. But it's not a big deal. It's not a personal indictment, nor is it racist. It says nothing about you, your record, or other's expectations of you. It just means you were misidentified for their program. "</p>
<p>What I don't understand if when it goes beyond that, when they know you are on a good track, that you did well, good recs, etc. and they keep asking. Then I think it's just for the numbers and "maybe" to get a group together that is diverse within the minority status. This was told to someone who was asked to apply to a summer program to disavantaged minorities and helped admission to more prestigage colleges. They said to the mother they liked a few students that did do well to encourage the rest. I can't say it's the impetus for all programs though.</p>
<p>Also I heard another student say at one college in the North East he was accepted too, that their summer program had a contract that said you had to go to meetings, meet with a counselor despite how you were doing during the year. He felt his potential B's or A's might be looked at differently than another white student. Maybe they would suspend it on an individual basis, but I told him they probably just wanted you to realize they wanted a commitment and it wasn't just a short prep program. For some students sticking with something is very hard.</p>
<p>FLVADAD, I get it, I agree with everything you said. There are too many minority teenagers that lack resources to even participate in the college debate, and it is slowly getting better. The merits of these programs serve a purpose. Detached? I'm not certain, haven't we encouraged our kids to reach higher, do better, embrace all, stand on your own two feet? So now, there is the other message, you need help, you can't do it on your own, you need to embrace your own to do better. It is the Catch 22, and we are in this continuos loop. When does it target those that do need the help and resources? Maybe we have moved beyond the umbrella. I don't view it as an insult but rather distracting. If we are on your list, whose others are we on.</p>
<p>FLVADAD is right on point.</p>
<p>I volunteer with a non-profit in Detroit Campbell</a> Academic Services, Inc. Homepage - Aces Program - Registration Information and Calendar</p>
<p>The express goal of this program is get our kids into college. The program is targetted for the public school students. This what I've learned through my involvement...</p>
<p>These are children of predominantly working class parents. Paying the $50.00for the classes are a luxury.
They know they want their children to go to college, but they have no information or even know to look for information.
A significant number of the children for the most part are horribly detached. They can't see past the present (and I mean today)
Those that have some idea are cognizant only of colleges they have heard of in the media. As I was looking at their forms, the colleges they wanted to attend were Harvard, Howard and some in-state schools.
Neither the students nor the parents are aware of the PSAT.
Detroit is quite segratated, so like their surburban counter-parts, they have no interaction with any other race, and probably other socio-economic groups.</p>
<p>These children are direct targets for AA.</p>
<p>It's easy to get caught up in my middle class values, but I cannot leave these children behind. I cannot leave these young black men behind. </p>
<p>I clearly understand are the different variables, but I have to do something.</p>
<p>"There are too many minority teenagers that lack resources to even participate in the college debate, and it is slowly getting better." You have no idea how slow it is. As the econmy is suffering, the middle-clas is shrinking. I fear that slowly getting better will soon turn into quickly reversing itself.</p>
<p>My parents are middle class and I knew back then my experiences were different than my peers. My child was literally brough up in a bubble. We went to an inner-city store and she was horrified and scared and embarrassed. And I was appalled that she felt that way!!! The stero-types she had seen in media came to life before her very eyes.</p>
<p>We cannot lose anymore generations. AA was a good thing. It doesn't mean the Ivy's need to accept students who are not prepared for them, but these kids can excel at many schools. </p>
<p>Why do they test so low? I don't know, but I got a clue from my daughter's high school. In her freshman year, I realized they were preparing them for the standardized tests.</p>
<p>The inner city public schools have to deal with so many other issues that the private or many suburban schools don't have to deal with. These children need a hand or a boost.</p>
<p>OK I know I rambled on and got off point, but the reality, AA or diversity programs are not the devil. And yes, the Black middle class is larger today, than it was in the 70's. But...we have a larger group of students that are falling into the abyss. : (</p>
<p>FLVADAD, GREAT post # 565!!</p>
<p>I think there are several types of diversity programs offered by colleges/universities. Some are designed to capture the top AA graduates for their institution. These programs are designed to woo the National Achievement Scholars and other URM students who have stellar grades, ECs, test scores, etc. Other programs are for URM students who, for whatever reason are unaware of the college admissions process, and may fall through the cracks w/o help or assistance. When students are admitted w/ the help of these programs there is probably some structured assistance during their 1st and 2nd year of college. There are programs aimed at the economically disadvantaged. I think we need all types of diversity programs………… and, yes, sometimes a student will be invited to the wrong type of program.</p>
<p>As far as being stereotyped as not being academically equal to White and Asian students – it will happen. The only way to change the stereotyping……….. is to prove the assumption wrong. The other incorrect assumption is that ALL AA students receive FA. I only wish that were true. :D I was talking w/ another AA parent at a reception during Yale’s Bulldog days; when a White mother joined our conversation. She kindly told us not to be frightened by Yale’s cost, because Yale was very generous regarding FA. That FA even extended to study aboard and summer school programs. We smiled, nodded, and thanked her for the info. Once she was gone we laughed …………….if only Yale equated AA w/ FA and no financial forms were needed. We agreed neither of our kids would be receiving FA. I did tell her if her S was lucky enough to get financial help - I wanted that “Dolce and Cabana” handbag (genuine not faux) hanging off her arm. :)</p>
<p>Regarding knowing about colleges and programs. I don't think it's just about low income and first generation. My husband is first generation college and was born in the WI's. I'm second gen. and my fathers family goes back a long way, in Alabama. My H and I spent most of our year in the same city ( Queens), but he did all the outreach programs, and headed for an Ivy. While I spent more time being exposed to "culture" and various extra curriculars, it was more about getting a jobs and heading to an HBCU, or the most economical choice. I knew nothing about "programs" and Ivy league schools until I came to CC. In fact I found CC because My H and I were arguing about whether my D should prepare for be SAT's! We still disagree about how much work and grief academics are worth, when balanced against independence and personal happiness.</p>
<p>Gaby3:
[quote]
What I don't understand if when it goes beyond that, when they know you are on a good track, that you did well, good recs, etc. and they keep asking.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yep, I'm with you there. We had a similar experience. My solution was to have D1 write a well worded letter to the program coodinator, and I in turn, wrote one to the head of admissions. The essential message was that they needed to do a better job of discernment, lest they'd lose out on interested students like D1, who at the time, expressed comments to me very similar to Dbate's :). The school's response was overwhelmingly positive. They explained that they really needed this type of feedback. Their staff did not realize the implications of what they were doing. They apologized. The Director later followed up to inform us they had ultimately changed their approach. She thanked us again for taking the time to bring it to their attention. </p>
<p>That was just an anecdotal experience, but I think it supports the idea that those of us who know better, need to give constructive feedback to these program administrators when we can.</p>
<p>Silvermoonlock, post #571, right on point.</p>
<p>"What I don't understand if when it goes beyond that, when they know you are on a good track, that you did well, good recs, etc. and they keep asking."</p>
<p>I don't think it is as easy to spot those "on the right track" as posts #573 and #574 suggest (but kudos, FLVADAD, on post #565!). Even students presenting respectable numbers can struggle - - especially since the numbers are only part of the individual candidate's story.</p>
<p>Several years ago, I was on the hospitality committe of D1's tip-top girls' day school. A White family, to whom my family was assigned as a "buddy," reported that the daugher, who had just transferred to our school from a top public, was disappointed. The mother conforted the girl by explaining, "A grade of 'C' at Tip-Top is better than an 'A' at your old school." The daughter had certainly presented a strong enough profile for admittance, but the adjustment was proving a bit more difficult than the family had expected.</p>
<p>It would be entirely reasonable for an elite LAC/uni to expect that incoming students might have similar problems adjusting. And likewise that, urm students, regardless of strong SAT/GPA, tend have additional stressors, making the transition to college difficult - - so the more prudent course of action woudl be to be why not be over-inclusive with the program invites. Those who don't need the services can just toss the invite, without taking offense - - especially since none is usually intended.</p>
<p>Also, I have a friend whose son attend St. Ann's, the strongest of the Brooklyn day schools. Recently, she repoted that "some school" in PA kept sending her son letter, encouraging him to apply. She had never heard of the school and had just been tossing out the letters. I asked her the name of the college - - Haverford. This woman is the college counselor in a public high school. If she hasn't heard of Haverford (she'd never heard of Smith either and she thugh Mt. Holyoke was a Catholic school), her letters of recommendation, attesting to students' prepardness is of little value. I can only imagine what misinformation she is giving her advisees.</p>
<p>I think that those of us who attended elite college/uni and whose kids are well-prepared have no idea the full range of experiences the college appicant pool (or the adults charged with advising these students).</p>
<p>Okey dokes so I got a 1990 (630 R, 720 M, 640 W) on my SAT's, a 26 on ACT, Lots of A.P/Honor Classes but a 3.6 unweighted GPA a...
-National Achievement Semi-finalist,
-President Philosophy Club
-National Honor Society
-All Academic Team Ohio,
-Captain Men's Volleyball team,
-Junior Olympic Men's Volleyball player,
-God, Flag, Country Speech winner; invitee to state tournament,
-Junior Council in World Affairs; placed 13th in regional 2006; placed 5th 2007,
-Selected as a mentor for the DARE program sophomore and junior years,
-Student Leader on Tobacco Effects- invited to research the effects of tobacco,
-Published in Minds Eye(Publication Magazine)
-Ski Club
-Rock climbing club
-Muse Machine
-Math Club
-Spanish Club
-Art Club
-Dedicated Individuals Rebuilding Tomorrow Today
-Volunteering at Hospital 70 hrs
-Interning with Infection Control Practitioner at Greene Memorial 130 hrs</p>
<p>WHAT ARE MY CHANCES IN THE IVY LEAGUE??</p>
<p>^ I referred him here: I don't do "chances", but knew there were experienced parents here...hope you all find it apropriate.</p>
<p>FLVDAD,I did write and my son talked to someone about their approach to URM's and the boundries of their program. They did seem to understand at one college and and knew some tweeking had to be done. He suggested if a program is for first generation for instance, why is it just offered to URM's? He knew white students that weren't offered the program with similar stats and background. Maybe then it wouldn't seem as isolating. Actually it was one of those students that said, "Why are they pushing that for you, you help me in class" and I wasn't asked."
All and all though, I think many of these programs are good for students that need support and help with a new environment and study skills, but they should be flexible.</p>
<p>Hi Ahmedkoraym, welcome! </p>
<p>Just a couple of questions:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Please describe the type of HS are you attending? How competitive do you think it is for your area? Have they sent others to Ivy schools? </p></li>
<li><p>Does your school rank its students? If so, where do you stand? </p></li>
<li><p>Do you plan to retake the SAT and/or ACT? </p></li>
<li><p>Have you taken any SAT II exams? If not, do you plan on doing so? </p></li>
<li><p>Do you plan to play V-Ball in college? </p></li>
<li><p>Do you work? What type of job? </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Answer these questions and I will offer you my best educated guess. I'm sure others will chime in as well.</p>