<p>I will plotz if this turns into an AA deal, but I do feel all the bashing of middle class Blacks getting a "boost" doesn't take into account how tenuous the class thing seems. The more I look at this college admission process, the more fascinated I am with my dad. He was born in Alabama in 1913, and ended up finishing requirements for his PhD at Columbia sometime before I was born. Only one of 7 sibs to got to college, and one of two to have kids. My mom was one of twelve and the only one to go to college. While me and my sibs did okay ( my sis is a lawyer and my brother just got a grammy nom!), most of my cousins are dropping like flies. I wonder at how we got so fortunate.</p>
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Scholarship offers have been a bit disappointed. EFC is pretty high. Best dollar offer so far has been from Baylor. Next two weeks should be interesting.
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<p>Hopefully the private schools on your D's list will step it up. No doubt it is flattering for S to have what appear to be nice options but I anxiously await the award letters. In the back of my mind are the dreaded admit/deny(poor FA) scenarios. My optimism is guarded still. Sybbie and FLVADAD, thanks for the kind words and the great suggestions too. 3 down and 12 to go. We took the shotgun approach since FA is a huge consideration and most of the application fees were waived. We don't need them all, just one, and a good one at that! lol</p>
<p>Adding UC Davis to the list, and congrats to all!</p>
<p>Yeah, unfortunately I think I may have overestimated when talking about scholarship opportunities earlier. I guess my thinking was skewed by the experiences we had with D1, which was incredible. During this round with D2, who is academically stronger IMO, it has been tougher at the most competitive schools. I think they all just have a greater number of extremely competitive applicants compared to a few years ago. I think there's also an increasingly greater number of first gen and/or native-born Africans applying who are very competitive. </p>
<p>In any event, we are definitely subject to that Middle Class squeeze predicament. We are probably going to be choosing between full rides at safety schools, or paying full, or nearly full fare at the most competitive ones. We've had a lot of discussions about the value of an undergraduate degree from one school to another lately trying to justify the potential costs we might be facing. </p>
<p>Ironically, D2 is viewing undergrad school/degree as sort of a basic commodity with the most important variable being individual performance and interests versus institutional selection. However, I think she is making that argument, at least in part, because she wants to relieve us of some of the financial pressure in the event merit aid doesn't come through at her top schools. She insists that's not the case, but I still wonder.</p>
<p>"We've had a lot of discussions about the value of an undergraduate degree from one school to another lately trying to justify the potential costs we might be facing. "</p>
<p>So...what arguments did you come up with for and agin'....we need a few more...</p>
<p>OK-full and fair disclosure--I am a hopeless educational snob. I grew up in the middle of nowhere (really, nowhere) had the incredible good fortune to happen upon a prestigious LAC that changed my life and provided entry into an Ivy grad school. I credit these two strokes of educational good luck in taking me from no where to some where.</p>
<p>Now, here are some pro's--the people you meet at these schools provide a network of a lifetime. </p>
<p>Furthermore, much will be expected of you--automatically not just because you go looking for it. </p>
<p>Last pro (until I think of another.... ) For those of us who are URM these schools are like the "Good Housekeeping Stamp of Approval". No doubt that there are many many many bright motivated talents students at Flagship State. But for us these top tier schools "pre-screen" for employers and grad schools. Fair? NO True? In my opinion, yes.</p>
<p>Thanks!...</p>
<p>Hey, I just noticed that I am "junior member" now. Wow, do I get access to the secret handshake or something :)</p>
<p>Oh snap -- Triguena, so you are!! And Shrinkrap seems to have been promo'd from "member" to "senior member!" Whoooo-hooo! Movin' on up, ladies.</p>
<p>For the record, I agree w/Triguena re: connections in the top tier, and would LOVE to send D to an ivy (if she were to make it in), but we just can't bring ourselves to hemorrhage the cash for #12 or #2, when #30-something comes free.</p>
<p>note: D's added WUSTL to the list and now awaits only one more on 3/31 - big bad Yale! I honestly don't know if her actually getting in will change the way we feel. Like TriG -- there's always ivy grad . . .</p>
<p>Superman IA. congrats to your D on Wustl, and to all of us for "Movin' on Up"!</p>
<p>Anyone want to share thoughts on the distance piece? How you or your child feel about school that requires say.... more than 6 hows or a plane ride to get to? How about your families feelings about people moving away? Though my H's family left Jamaica, one at a time, to come here, they seem to feel they should all settle in the same city. My immediate family has scattered quite a bit.</p>
<p>"No doubt that there are many many many bright motivated talents students at Flagship State. But for us these top tier schools "pre-screen" for employers and grad schools. Fair? NO True? In my opinion, yes."</p>
<p>I'm a black Harvard grad who used to feel the same way that you do.
However, I've seen top graduates of historically black colleges that are second and third tier go on to top graduate and professional schools and jobs with Fortune 500 companies. In fact, when I worked for a Fortune 500 company, I also recruited some such students. </p>
<p>I've seen black graduates of my state's flagship university (not a top 25 university) go on to places like Stanford.</p>
<p>Of course, these kind of things happen with the kids who entered the top universities with high scores that typically were coupled with high grades (though often with boys, they had the scores, but not the grades) and a rigorous curriculum. </p>
<p>I also see my younger S-- high scores, 2.7 or so h.s. gpa with a rigorous curriculum -- doing extremely well in a second tier LAC where he's getting amazing opportunities and recognition due to his initiative, not his race, and finally also has been inspired to get the high grades that he's capable of attaining. If he continues in this way, I believe that he could be accepted to a top graduate or professional school (He's not interested in working for a corporation). </p>
<p>I also think that having a brand name undergraduate program was more of an important confidence builder for me (a person who came from a hick town, and who entered college at the end of the civil rights era) than for my sons who had a more sophisticated background and grew up in a world in which legal segregation wasn't allowed. I never noticed either of my sons appearing to wonder whether they "belonged" in environments that were sophisticated, foreign, wealthy, overwhelmingly white, etc. Neither son seemed to feel the need to prove they were worthy of acceptance the way I was brought up to feel.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I am with you 100%. As opinion is shaped by experience there is no doubt that my opinion is filtered through the lense of breaking into a world unknown by my parents (both grads of HBCU) and my stifling hometown (where number of offspring often exceed number of natural teeth remaining in dad's mouth.....).</p>
<p>DS has grown up in suburban competitive environment surrounded by people that (for the most part) just assumed he fit in.</p>
<p>Where I disagree a bit with your assessment is when you point to the number of black grads from HBCU and Flagship state that make it into top grad schools. Absolutely there were people from Morehouse, Spelman, Univ. of Missouri in my grad school class. But these were the absolutely exceptional students from their school. I worry about the good--but not superstar--students. Where do they end up? Are they better reaching for the pretigious LAC?</p>
<p>First to SMIA--congrats to you and your D</p>
<p>To Shrinkrap--I feel your pain. We live on the East Coast and DS has expressed an interest in USC. My heart skipped a beat. I love California. Even worked in SF on a short term project. But having my son so far away would make me sad.</p>
<p>My wise husband intervened. He said that first of all it is just an interest and may wane on its own. Secondly, I had no right to step on son's dream for my selfish motivations. I hate it when he goes logical on me.</p>
<p>Anyway, I agreed to fly with S to LA this summer to visit USC. I hope it is raining and 40 degrees that day....</p>
<p>Triguena; Actually it's me who thinks D should go (if she wants to) and H who jokes I'm "sending her away". I was also the one who "led" us away from family, to California, and don't quite "get" why his family all stay or move in a huddle. OTOH , my parents died many years ago so that might make it different, but I do feel bad about my kids not knowing their extended family better (but not bad enough to move !). My sister and inlaws are in the south, so maybe D going will lead us ALL back.</p>
<p>"I hope it is raining and 40 degrees that day"....is there a plan B? More likely to be 140 degrees...</p>
<p>"Where I disagree a bit with your assessment is when you point to the number of black grads from HBCU and Flagship state that make it into top grad schools. Absolutely there were people from Morehouse, Spelman, Univ. of Missouri in my grad school class. But these were the absolutely exceptional students from their school. I worry about the good--but not superstar--students. Where do they end up? Are they better reaching for the pretigious LAC?"</p>
<p>The very top level of students at HBCUs, including third tier ones, has students who are the equivalent of students at places like Ivies. They may have been lured to HBCUs due to lavish scholarships, family ties, not knowing to take the college board tests more than once, a preference to attend an HBCU or non top tier college, or lack of information about the various types of colleges that are available.</p>
<p>Good -- but not superstar students of any race -- aren't going to get into top universities, so it's a moot point about whether they would be better off going to a top university. Keep in mind that the "average" student of any race on CC often would be considered a superstar when compared to the average college-bound student nationwide.</p>
<p>I'm w/ Trig re: attending prestig LAC. </p>
<p>There may be many HSBCU and state-u students enrolling in grad schools, but not at the top grad prgms. My office, not unlike others in NYC, really considers pedigree for entry level positions - - and more often than it probab should for promotions. The office is, however, willing to "take a chance" on a non-top-tier-grad-sch applicant if s/he attended a top LAC/uni as an undergrad.</p>
<p>full disclosure - - I attended top LAC, so too DD1. DD2, w/ weaker academic profile, appears on track for a 2nd tier LAC in the Ursinus/Clark range, or small state-u - - but if grades/scores tick upward, I'll encorage her to look at stronger schools.</p>
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<p>SMIA - - I keeping my fingers crossed for you, but if friends' exprience is common, you have to drop down well below #30 to get good merit aid. I know of only a couple of students who rec'd larger merit awards from LACs or small unis in the #30-40 range. One boy had near perfect grades/scores, ECs, etc. - - rejected at Princeton, admitted to Amherst, full-ride $$ at Trinity. More likely was a girl admitted to Bates and Smith (rejected at Kenyon, Oberlin and Bowdoin) who rec'd about $15k merit $$ from Wooster. Or Curmedgon'd D who rec'd large award at Furman.</p>
<p>NSMom - - re: luring top students to HSBCUs w/ lavish scholarships. I certainly appreciate that pretty much every school has a couple/few Ivy caliber students. But one concern express on this thread has been the failure of HSBCUs to contact high achieving black students early in the process. And in some cases, the HSBCUs seem singularly uninterested - - as oppossed to top LACs and unis that really court top black students. So, it's hard to believe there are more than those couple/few Ivy caliber students at HSBCUs.</p>
<p>(FYI - - I've seen a number of good but not superstar students, black and White, admitted to top schools.)</p>
<p>" luring top students to HSBCUs w/ lavish scholarships. I certainly appreciate that pretty much every school has a couple/few Ivy caliber students. But one concern express on this thread has been the failure of HSBCUs to contact high achieving black students early in the process. And in some cases, the HSBCUs seem singularly uninterested - - as oppossed to top LACs and unis that really court top black students. So, it's hard to believe there are more than those couple/few Ivy caliber students at HSBCUs."</p>
<p>True that the HBCUs don't have hordes of Ivy-caliber students. This is also true for other second and third tier colleges.</p>
<p>However, there are HBCUs that pursue top black students. These include North Carolina Central, Howard and Florida A&M, all of which offer lavish scholarships to students such as National Achievement Scholars.</p>
<p>For instance, a recruiter for NCC showed up at my younger S's school in Oct. of S's senior year to hand S a scholarship offer based on S's being a National Achievement semifinalist. S wasn't interested, but I know of some Ivy-caliber black students who were so honored by such offers that they didn't bother to apply any place else.</p>
<p>My older S was recruited by FAMU because he was a National Achievement semi-finalist. He, too, wasn't interested, but that wasn't due to a lack of FAMU's attempting to land him.</p>
<p>"And in some cases, the HSBCUs seem singularly uninterested - - as oppossed to top LACs and unis that really court top black students."</p>
<p>Seems true to us. D got a letter and app from Howard on 12/1/07. Of course SHE could have pursued THEM. D got into Spelman EA but we've heard nothing since. Does anyone know if D should expect a merit offer and if so when? I went to Howard with similar stats, but with an AF-ROTC "ride". That's who showed up at my door. They literally stalked me. Didn't apply anywhere else, but that's because I fell in love (with Howard) at homecoming.</p>
<p>"D got into Spelman EA but we've heard nothing since. Does anyone know if D should expect a merit offer and if so when?"</p>
<p>. From what I see on the for pay part of the US News premium college on-line guide, only 11% of Spelman students get merit scholarships, and Spelman doesn't reveal on average how much students get. Since Spelman is the top rated HBCU, and doesn't seem to have a tough time attracting good students, I imagine it's harder to get merit aid at Spelman than at some of the other HBCUs. Also, it's easier for black males (and males in general) to get merit aid because there's a scarcity of college-bound males of all races. This especially is true when it comes to black males. By contrast, there are lots of outstanding college-bound black females including those who'd happily go to Spelman even without merit aid.</p>