unfounded concerns or need to worry?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have been hesitant to ask this question because the more you reveal about your situation the less anonymous you become. But I need advice, sooooo I’m willing to lose some privacy. D currently attends a HS in a rural college town (university students=18-20K, permanent residents= 8-9K). D is one of a handful of Black students in a school that is 85% Caucasian and 15% Asian. The kids truly function as if the world was color blind. Race does not seem to play a role in their friendships. H and I are concerned about what will happen when D leaves this pseudo utopia. In developing a list of schools H and I disagree on what size and type would be best for D. He thinks a small private LAC would be the best fit. I think a small to mid size U located in an urban or suburban area would have more Black students and thus be a better fit. My fear is that if she attends a LAC with a student population of 2K with 3% AA students, her dating prospects will be VERY slim. H doesn’t want HIS D dating before 30 so…. the prospect of having only a dozen heterosexual AA males on campus doesn’t concern him. H’s BIL who purports to “know ALL”, says at bigger schools the minority students tend to segregate by race outside of the classroom; and D who has not been conditioned to seek friendships based on race will have a difficult time adjusting.</p>

<p>Are we worrying about a problem that doesn’t exist? Is this a problem at small LACs, mid-size Us, big Us, east-coast schools, southern schools…? What would you do if you were in our moccasins?</p>

<p>PLEASE, I do NOT want this to be a discussion about the pros/cons of Affirmative Action.</p>

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<p>From your post, I gather that you assume your D will consider dating only AA young men?</p>

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<p>Here's an opinion based on my own experience growing up black in a small Upstate NY town in which my family of four was probably the first black people to live there. When I went to high school, I was the first black student in the high school of 1,500 students. When I graduated, there were 4 other students there including my brother and a niece of my godmother.</p>

<p>My advice is to let your daughter go to the college where she feels most comfortable. Wherever she goes, with the exception of HBCUs, she's likely to encounter some black students who wish to segregate themselves and try to force other black students to do the same. There also will be black students who choose to make friends with people from a variety of races and backgrounds.</p>

<p>As for her dating, take a close look at the low numbers of black males who go to college. Realize that if you give your daughter the message that she can only date black males, her prospects will be very slim even at HBCUs. </p>

<p>When I went to Harvard, I had never been around so many black people in my life. That's where I learned the most about black teen culture (at least the culture of highly educated, middle class and wealthy black teens!). I had quite an adjustment since I had to learn the slang, dances, etc. </p>

<p>On the other hand, when I taught at an HBCU, I saw many black students who had been previously in overwhelmingly white environments go through transitions similar to what I had done in college. This particularly was true of the strongest students since often they had been isolated in all white and Asian AP and gifted programs.</p>

<p>Wherever your daughter goes, she'll end up learning more about herself as a black person and how she fits into the world. You can't protect her from the down side of this. It is a confusing situation. Consequently, let her check out a variety of colleges and then select the one that she feels best meets her needs.</p>

<p>I also suggest reading Dr. Beverly Tatum's book, "Why Do all of the Black Kids Sit Together in the Cafeteria." Tatum is a psychologist who used to be a prof a Mount Holyoke, but now is president of Spelman. The book is based on research she did about black students' socializing at mainstream colleges.</p>

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<p>TuTuTaxi, I think you and I are among the few parents suggesting that "dating" prospects for our daughters is an element of fit in the college search. My job is much more simple than yours. D just wants a school where there are a reasonable number of guys, 43% has been her effective cutoff point. That really plays havoc with the LAC list, doesn't it? That's pretty difficult in and of itself. Looking for AA males in reasonable numbers at an LAC? Wow.That'll be lots tougher. </p>

<p>My gut tells me that your BIL may be at least partially right. It also tells me that the schools most like the utopian high school are going to be schools like Carleton, and Mac, and Grinnell. Upper Midwest probably, with exceptions. But that's my first thought based on campus dynamics I've witnessed.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
H doesn’t want HIS D dating before 30 so…. the prospect of having only a dozen heterosexual AA males on campus doesn’t concern him.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I love it! If that doesn't prove that racial distinctions are mostly stupid and arbitrary, nothing does. I've heard that sentiment expressed on the other side of our dinner table for about the last 10 years.</p>

<p>Please don't take this the wrong way, because I understand what your point is, we 'rents met in college, and have had similar discussions about potential mates. What does your daughter think? I know, I know you guys are thinking the way we did, from a position of knowing what the future may well bring, plus the perspective of minority, but what does she say?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I love it! If that doesn't prove that racial distinctions are mostly stupid and arbitrary, nothing does. I've heard that sentiment expressed on the other side of our dinner table for about the last 10 years.

[/quote]
Cangel , I certainly wouldn't have thought there would any distinction between an AA father and any other Dad up to and including alien beings on the "no dating or limited dating before 30" rule. We are in this one instance a unified , but admittedly futile, front.</p>

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<p>Oh, that sentiment crosses all ethnic and ideological lines. I've heard Sean Hannity say it many times. :)</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo – No, I do not think D will only consider dating within her race. In fact her current boyfriend is white. My fear is that she will naively continue to assume race will not be a factor in relationships.</p>

<p>Northstarmom – Thanks for sharing your experiences and the reference about Beverly Tatum's book. I’m ordering a copy from Amazon.com today.</p>

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<p>curmudgeon -YES, D is your typical social butterfly. The only absolute NO thus far in the college search - is an all female school. Her cut-off for males is not less than 45%.</p>

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<p>"No dating or limited dating before 30" rule... My H is firmly in favor of this approach and it is currently causing difficulties in my family. The dads just can't deal...</p>

<p>Unless your D isn't open to it, she probably will date guys of other ethnic groups at college if she hasn't already. My college junior D indicates that isn't an issue in her age group--in fact, it is very uncool not to treat each person as just another individual. One of her housemates is of mixed heritage (one parent is AA, I think) and her current b/f is Caucasian. </p>

<p>A bigger college is probably a better idea as far as finding a significant other.</p>

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<p>Aaahhh, Daddies and daughters - it helps them grow into strong, beautiful young women.</p>

<p>I'm like Curmudgeon, my gut tells me your BIL may have some of the truth of it. I do think though it is slowly changing. I see it changing in daily life here. I thnk NSM's advice is very wise.
Do visits and trust your daughter's instincts on this one. she may want to duplicate her high school experiences, or she might even want to go to a HBCU. As NSM says you can't protect her from the downside, and I think it would be hard to predict what her experience will be before she actually gets to school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
H doesn’t want HIS D dating before 30 so.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Off topic, but the only rule we have for our son is the no motorcycle before age 45 rule.</p>

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<p>My niece was in a somewhat similar situation, a mixed race kid who looks black, brought up in an overwhelmingly white area. She was the one who expressed an interest in going to college somewhere where she could find out more about being African American. She didn't express this around dating (which doesn't mean she didn't think about it). But, she hoped for a college in an area with more black people and one where she might also take courses in African American studies while still planning on pre-med. She chose to apply to urban schools -- the idea of being in a tiny LAC in the middle of the country definitely did not appeal -- though I did suggest she look at one LAC (Occidental, in Los Angeles) which is more diverse than most. She wanted only universities, however, and will be attending Northwestern.</p>

<p>So, I might take some some signals from your daughter here. I agree with you that the issue of race and college cultures is worth discussing with her -- another item on the list of how to find a good fit, though I personally wouldn't talk about it in terms of dating unless she does. Does she want a college that resembles the racial/ethnic mix of her high school? Does she want to be in an area that resembles the one she grew up in, or to experience something different? A place where she knows everyone or a place where she can be more anonymous if she chooses? Does it matter whether or not she can take courses in, say, African American literature, as opposed to being required to read 19th century British novels?</p>

<p>As for marriage, don't you just wish we had some control over the partners they pick? I have a 25-year-old daughter. Dream on....</p>

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<p>TT,
Just as an experiment, you might try using this service (not pushing Williams, I'm just aware that they have this program); there are a substantial number of current black students in a rural LAC environment (some Af-Am, some Af, some Caribbean) to whom you could address your questions and concerns. I'm sure other schools have similar things available.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/admission/life_askfirstyear.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/admission/life_askfirstyear.php&lt;/a>
The organization by state isn't very helpful, but pick a populous state such as NY or CA and I think you'll find a good number of students to query.</p>

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<p>Tututaxi:
My S is similarly colorblind. If I had not met his friends in person, I would not have known their ethnicity, although I knew one had pink hair. One girl who is an observant Jew is at least part black (maybe adopted? maybe the biracial child of now divorced parents?) the girl with pink hair is a girl adopted from China by a single white woman, etc... Another friend was adopted from India by a single white woman, and on and on. My S decided that a mid-sized university in an urban environment would give him the greatest chance of continuing to be in this kind of diverse setting. But there are LACs or-near LACs that are more diverse than others. At Wesleyan, for example, there is a sizable African-American community. At places like that, while some students might choose to self-segregate, there are enough of those who don't to make a difference to the general tenor of the campus in and outside of class. </p>

<p>In a school with very few minority students, there might be pressure to be THE spokesperson for one's race, to be expected to present THE AA experience, viewpoint, etc...in class, on panels. It can be uncomfortable. That is something to consider besides the issue of dating.</p>

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<p>I went to a school with over 90% white population out of 30,000 students. Trust me, you will always find your niche even at a school that lacks diversity. Not everyone will be your friend but you will find your friends.</p>

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<p>If the 30,000 student school was 90% white, it means that there were about 3000 non-white students. Not too small a pool. For a LAC of 1,500 students, a smilar ratio would yield 150 students. Maybe a minority kid eager to maintain roots could find a few kindred spirits among these 150.</p>

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<p>driver – Thanks for the link, I’ve sent an email to a Williams’ west-coast student.

[quote]
In a school with very few minority students, there might be pressure to be THE spokesperson for one's race, to be expected to present THE AA experience, viewpoint, etc...in class, on panels. It can be uncomfortable. That is something to consider besides the issue of dating.

[/quote]

marite – Yes, I had not considered this issue.</p>

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<p>When did Dad start dating? When did he meet mom? The trouble with waiting until 30 is that many wonderful guys are grabbed WAY before 30. I see girls putting dibs on my two boys already. And no wonder. Says mom.</p>

<p>Dad can't face the visuals, I know, but he'll get over it. ;) He'll have to, LOL.</p>

<p>Your question has some relation to the comments in the 'Where Have All the Guys Gone?" thread. Your D has a double dose to consider if she considers a LAC. Ratio of F to M.... and diversity. Those are biggies and well worth a post.</p>

<p>As someone said, LACs offer more handholding. Many boys think they don't need that level of handholding after the age of 18 (debatable). They think are ready for bigger challenges. The small communities of LACs remind them of their high school experiences--which they are ready to leave behind. This was the case with my son.</p>

<p>Does your D need a smaller, more nurturing environment? Is she the independent type who can sort her way through obstacles? That might be the key question. Like Northstarmom, I think your D will answer this question for herself. (Sorry dad).</p>

<p>Like you, I am pleased about our children's apparent color blindness. That sensibility represents a sea change for our society. It deserves to be fostered and we made an effort to foster it in son's college selection.</p>

<p>We didn't factor in dating parameters in his college hunt ( and as he fell inlove in week three we probably should have). We did look for diverse schools in diverse cities; ie New York, LA, Washington, Boston, Miami and so on.</p>

<p>It might be that a LAC in a diverse location would do the trick?</p>

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<p>Have you considered posting related questions to AA students on the CC board for some of the small LAC's in question? Some of the students on the college part of this site are very open and informative.</p>