Risk of good student forgoing SAT prep

Parent Cafe
1

<p>D is a junior, the ultimate intellectual. She loves school and takes the hardest classes she can handle, she'll have 5 tough AP exams done by the end of junior year - Physics B, Euro, Latin Lit, CalcBC and Bio. </p>

<p>Plenty of EC's that she likes - more of a thinker than a leader. Not a star athlete although she does fence competitively. Her public HS adds 1 to a grade for honors or AP. She's taken only Honors and AP and on a 5.0 scale, both her weighted gpa is 5.15/5.3, equally split between A's and A+'s, and on a 4.0 scale, her unweighted GPA is 4.15/4.3. Her school is very competitive and she's probably in the top 3%, but not the val or sal. She's the only kid that she knows that's equally drawn to the Math team and the Philosophy club. </p>

<p>Her current junior load is very heavy, and though I've gotten all of the materials for the Xiggi method for her, she says the doesn't think that she'll have the time to properly prepare for the SAT. She doesn't want to risk falling behind in a class to set aside time to study for it, and thinks that her GPA is much more important than her SAT. She also doesn't think that she'll get much out of it intellectually, and that seems to be the ultimate determining factor for her in how she spends her time. At least in working hard in her classes she gets the satisfaction of learning new material every day which is what she loves. We've always also put an emphasis on getting enough sleep, which hasn't always been heeded. </p>

<p>Her current test scores are
SATII: MathII 800 and Physics 800
ACT:32
AP: PhysicsB 5 and APEuro 5</p>

<p>I've told her that I support her decision either way, and I'm inclined to agree given that she already has that 32 on the ACT - which she prepared extensively for and took December of sophomore year. However, I also know that she's the kind of kid who can really nail the SAT with proper effort. She's not even sure she can repeat the 32 on the ACT without reviewing her preparation.</p>

<p>She's interested in linguistics - she took a 10 week mini class Freshmen year and has been hooked ever since - and so far, she seems drawn to hyper intense places like UChicago, Stanford and Swarthmore and to a lesser extent MIT. She seems a little turned off by "power" schools like Harvard, but she hasn't really had a chance to do too much college research beyond our school's college fair, the Fiske book, what we've discussed with her, and the normal discussions that go on within her high school. I can easily see her drawn to graduate school and an academic career rather than a professional degree like business, law or medicine. </p>

<p>How much do you think she would be giving up by standing pat on the 32 and not putting much effort in preparing for the SAT?</p>

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<p>Well, I guess it’s all relative, Classic – if my S had anywhere near your D’s stats, we’d be sitting pretty! He doesn’t, so we’re still doing prep work – in fact, he’s sitting in the kitchen now with his prep person working through various exercises. OTOH, he’s not looking at any of the same schools as your D!</p>

3

<p>Just my opinion, but I think your daughter is the type of student who does not really need to prepare for the SAT at all. She should familiarize herself with the correct way to enter the answers for the grid-in part of the mathematics test, and it would be a good idea for her to look at some of the issues that are emphasized on the writing test (parallelism is one where they’re sticklers). Aside from that, I think she’ll do just fine if she spends about an hour trying out a few sections of a few real SAT’s. I also think her ACT would go up if she re-took it. There’s an almost automatic gain from winter of sophomore year to spring of junior year, due to intellectual maturation and regular course work. I’m sure others will weigh in.</p>

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<p>Your D sounds like a perfect candidate for UChicago! Regarding SAT, I think she should take a diagnostic test (at home) without preparation and see how she scores. She most likely has the potential to score close to 2300+, so if she gets a score significantly lower, maybe some preparation wouldn’t hurt. I agree that she won’t get much intellectually out of it, but it would be a shame not to give herself as much help as possible, given the competition at the schools she is considering. Another option is to take SAT in the spring, and if the result is less than what she hopes, re-take it in the fall of senior year.</p>

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<p>ClassicRockerDad,
I believe that my oldest is the male version of your D. The classic intellectual. He did no prep for the SAT, scored very high in his one and only shot at it. Graduated from Swarthmore in '07, and currently at U. Chicago in a Ph.D program. If she doesn’t have time for prep, let her just take it. If she’s not happy with her score, let her take it again with a bit of prep. Remember, with the new “score choice” recently instituted, she can pick and choose which SAT score (single sitting) she wants to send.</p>

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<p>S1, not what I would call an intellectual, just a naturally smart kid (NM Commended, 6/450,etc) with good grades had no interest in SAT prep. He took the SAT (old version 2004) without cracking a book, made 1400 and said “I’m done”. I knew he could have prob. done much better with some prep (since he hadn’t had alg1/geom. since 7/8th gr.). You can lead a horse to water but… I will say that he knew all along he wanted to attend our big state u. and that score was good enough to get him in and be competitive for scholarships there. So it was not an issue here. </p>

<p>Sounds like your D has a really good head on her shoulders. I would let her decide. Since she’s just a jr., if she’s not happy with her first score, she still has time to prep and re-take.</p>

7

<p>The easiest method of “studying” for the SAT for kids like yours is to get “10 REAL SATs”, take one or two of the tests in the book, and call it a day.
Neither of my kids did any prep for the SAT other than that, and they did very well. What taking the practice tests helped them do is track their time efficiently. If your D finds that she isn’t finishing, she can try another with a faster pace. After one or two practice tests, they will be more than prepared. One test takes about 3 hours, I think. Maybe they can squeeze it in by getting up a bit earlier on a Sunday morning.</p>

8

<p>Has she considered not taking the SAT at all?</p>

<p>Rationale: She is going to want to report those excellent SAT Subject Test scores to colleges, but if you report your Subject Test scores, your regular SAT score will be on the report as well. She already has a good ACT score. Why take even the slightest risk of having to report an SAT score that might be disappointing?</p>

<p>I think she might be better off taking the ACT again. Her score might go up, and if it does down, that won’t hurt her.</p>

<p>And as others have indicated, UChicago sounds like a good fit for your daughter, if she doesn’t mind the big-city environment.</p>

9

<p>Our experience was that scores went up from beginning of junior year to end of junior year, so I imagine that scores would definitely increase from sophomore year. D mentioned that the vocab work in junior year English was quite useful. I would wait till end of junior year to take SAT.</p>

<p>We ran into the same problem with heavy junior year. Talking about test prep now (in the fall when new classes are just starting) was a non-starter. Talking about test prep during April when she was prepping for AP tests was a non-starter. </p>

<p>If extensive test prep during junior year isn’t going to happen, then I’d just go over test sections a little after APs are done and then take the June test. If she isn’t satisfied with the results, then she might be motivated to prep in the summer and take the first administration of the SAT in the fall.</p>

<p>How far a 32 will take you in the landscape of college admissions depends on the type of college she’s interested in attending. Any ideas on that front? A 32 would be an automatic in at some colleges; at others, it would put you in the middle of the pack of applicants.</p>

<p>One more test you may think of taking–one more SAT 2. Some schools require an SAT 2 from “different areas” (the UCs come to mind). You might want to throw in a US History SAT 2 in the May administration date.</p>

<p>One more thought: with the ACT, you can look at the subscores and see if any specific area stands out as a problem. If so, prepping more in one section (maybe verbal–her math skills seem pretty high)and not bothering to prep in others may be seen as lightening the load and more palatable.</p>

<p>As for not wanting to prep because it isn’t intellectually challenging, sometimes you just have to suck it up to get something you want. I like to show a junior interested in college scatterplots of universities of he or she might want to attend. (GPA plotted on y axis, SAT scores plotted on x axis for each college) They come away with an idea of how competitive they would be in the pool of applicants. Sometimes, it is motivating. Your competitive high school may have these scatterplots. Yes, college admissions is more than GPA and SATs, but when you look at the data, you get a general idea of the lay of the land.</p>

<p>Also something to note: standardized test scores can become more important in competition for merit scholarships.</p>

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<p>Your daughter sounds like a gem! I faced this with my youngest child. He was so busy with sports and classes he didn’t want a prep class. His counselor twisted his arm reminding him that the competition right now is such that he needed to be 75th percentile in every category or might well get knocked out of the box at top schools since he wasn’t an athlete being recruited, a minority or in one of the categories where high everything wasn’t expected.</p>

<p>I’ll also note that I’m surprised to see Stanford on a list with Chicago and Swat being called intense. It’s a wonderful school but I would put it in the easy going, more parties than intellectual banter category.</p>

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<p>Here’s a scatterplot I like to use. The high school involved is a large, suburban public high school in Southern California.</p>

<p>[AHS</a> c/o 2008](<a href=“http://www.arcadiachineseparents.org/college.html]AHS”>http://www.arcadiachineseparents.org/college.html)</p>

<p>I used an ACT conversion chart (32=2130 SAT score). Take a look and see for yourself where a 32 and a high GPA might place you.</p>

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<p>My oldest daughter had the same view on test prep and a similar profile. I told her it was her choice, but wanted to be sure that it might be the difference between a great school and an Ivy League school. She refused the test prep. She got mid 700s. She got in to the U of Chicago but turned it down. That old “where fun goes to die” issue. She applied early to Dartmouth, got deferred and ultimately rejected. I think it was her test scores. She’s at Wesleyan now and happy. Very few schools will weed your daughter out if it comes down to just the difference between 700s or an 800. But there are some-- Yale for instance pretty much takes 800 students, unless you are in a special category–recruited athletes etc. I think your daughters view is admirable frankly. Valuing learning to think over gaming the testing system. She sounds like the type of student U of Chicago likes. But, I would be very direct about with her about the possibility of giving up an Ivy League admission if that matters to her. Some of them are pretty slavish about sticking to the highest test scores.</p>

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<p>I agree that a typical 3 hour per week review course may not be worth her time. However, she can take the PSAT and if she scores well could be commended or even NMSF which could be a good thing. She would at least want to take the time to figure out the format and the tricks (when to gues, when to not answer) since I think the SAT may differ from the ACT on that. Also, the PSAT score do not have to be reported so she could stick with the ACT if it doesn’t work in her favor. My oldest did not take a review course and was NMF and did well enough on the SAT in one sitting to not have to take it again. I found someone that did small classes and had him do a few practice tests and review sessions with her to get familiar with the format and review some math and the essay writing. The cost was much less than a review class and was probably all he needed. He had the materials to do a computerized study at home, but didn’t happen much. Good luck to her.</p>

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<p>Some schools require either the SAT and/or ACT for the admissions process. I agree with the comments posted here. My s has very similar stats and scored 2100+ with no prep or study. </p>

<p>Sometimes the colleges are a bit funny about what they consider an “incomplete” transcript. Example: One of my son’s classmates who graduated last year with top GPA, SAT/ACT scores, took 7 AP courses, aced them all, but never took the AP tests. His dream school was Yale, and he was accepted to every one of the schools that he applied to, including Stanford and rejected for Yale.</p>

<p>Who knows why, but some speculation is for the lack of follow through on the AP exams. It kind of throws a “red flag” up when a student goes to all of the time and effort to ace the classes but never take the exam!</p>

<p>With the current competition, I would make sure that every T is crossed and I dotted to be sure of the best chance of admission.</p>

<p>Good Luck :)</p>

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<p>I agree that perhaps a worthwhile compromise for your D might be to take one or two sample “Real SATs” from that book & see how it goes. My S also refused to take an SAT prep & did just fine on his SAT. Her grades, SAT IIs and ACTs look very good.</p>

<p>My S reasoned that the mistakes he made on his SATs were careless & he couldn’t see how any prep course would get him not to make careless errors. We supported his decision & he attends a U where he’s very happy, with good merit money.</p>

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<p>If I were her, I would prep for an hour or two for the PSAT, just to make sure she hits NMSF status. She is obviously a great test taker and an academic powerhouse so she will enjoy success even if she goes in without prepping.</p>

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<p>Since many people offered an opinion, I’ll throw my two cents in. </p>

<p>First, preparing for the SAT does NOT have to be a long term ordeal. Your D’s SAT Subject scores indicate that she is very familiar with the type of tests offered by the The College Board. Since she has prepared for the ACT and earned a very good score, I doubt that she would have to spend much time on the SAT. </p>

<p>My recommendation would be slightly different from others. I would recommend to simply READ through a number of past tests WITH the answers in front of her. The purpose would be to uncover any specific “hole” in reasonong or find any type of arcane problem. Again, she should be able to solve every problem but the presentation of a few might be different from the ACT. She should find this quick and dirty review most helpful for the writing and CR sections. I do not think it is necessary to take a test under normal conditions, but if she wants to be sure not to “ruin” her ACT score, she might want to spend a Saturday morning at the library or at the kitchen table. This said, I strongly believe your D will greatly improve her 32 ACT by taking the SAT, and since she does have two superlative Subject scores in Math and Sciences, the “advantage” of the ACT as an admission “strategy” has disappeared. </p>

<p>As far as GPA versus SAT, I disagree that the GPA is more important. Do the math to see how badly she would have to do in one class to downgrade her GPA. There is no difference between a 4.12 and a 4.20, and there are few brownies that go with a perfect A+ GPA. Further, spending a few hours preparing for the SAT should not have a negative impact on her remaining classes. </p>

<p>In general terms, I would also advise your D to not get obsessed about the GPA and SAT/ACT. Looking at schools such as Stanford, Swarthmore, and Chicago, I would recommend to start working on her essays as soon as possible. I really believe that this will be a LOT more important than getting perfect scores/GPA. </p>

<p>Lastly, you might consider contacting KyleDavid (a poster who is very active in the College Search forum.) He has recently started at Stanford and his main interest is linguistics. He should be able to help your D understand the major better and decide if it is really something she wants to study. I happen to think that many people are a bit confused about the study of linguistics. </p>

<p>Best of luck to you and your D.</p>

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<p>Based on ACT and SATII scores, virtually no reason for her to take a prep course or do anything more than be familiar with the tests.</p>

<p>One more vote for a review of 1 or 2 PSAT’s or SAT’s, prior to taking the PSAT. She should definitely take the PSAT…and can decide, based on that score whether or not it’s worthwhile to take the SAT I.</p>

<p>Another reason to consider taking the ACT again…or the SAT…is if there are local or school specific scholarships that require a higher score.</p>

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<p>My D flat out refused to study for any of the standardized tests. Claimed she didn’t want to go to a college that judged her based on a 3 hr. test and would not play into the corporate game. We made her take both the ACT and SAT once and she did fairly well, but not even in the range of the OPs D. She too is the classic intellectual type. Took all the hard classes, had a 4.5 GPA, lots of leadership and wonderful, personal relationships with several of her teachers. Needless to say her test scores were way below the rest of her stats. She was accepted at 6 of 7 colleges she applied to (the lone rejection being Berkeley, which must be a numbers game in their acceptances due to such high volume). She is a freshman at Reed College now and loving it. OP-you might check out Reed for your D. I hear they have a top-notch linguistics major and certainly favor the pure intellectual thinker.</p>

<p>There are so many wonderful schools that use a holistic approach to admissions. With your D current test scores in the ACT and SATIIs she would not get rejected anywhere based on scores alone and would certainly make it through the round where admissions officers evaluate the whole candidate. Suggest you not pressure her to take any more standardized tests if she doesn’t want to.</p>

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<p>Not every student needs test prep. My son gained 10 points on the SAT after doing some prep. (Irregular attendence at a class - took 4 or 5 practice SATs and concentrated on improving his writing score.) His essay score went up, his writing multiple choice writing score went down (after getting an 800 on the PSAT Writing :rolleyes:) so that the writing score stayed exactly the same. Each time he made a couple of silly mistakes in math which lost him 40 or 50 points (but no amount of practice would have helped) and a couple of mistakes in verbal which didn’t cost him at all. He didn’t get in to every school he applied to, but that could easily be due to less than stellar essays or admissions committees that didn’t want his very focused interests.</p>