Rochester Institute of Technology-Why is graduation rate so low?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Rochester Institute of Technology
1

<h2>Here are a bunch of random observations and questions about graduation rate and SAT changes. I would like to hear what others think.</h2>

<p>In US News, RIT is in the classification "Best Universities-Masters, North Region". Ir ranks 7th in comparison to schools that are more like LACs: Villanova, Loyola of Maryland, Providence C, Fairfield U, Coll of NJ, Bentley, Ithaca College, U Scranton, St Joseph's (PA).</p>

<p>RIT's graduation rate is 20-25% lower than the others.
Can the tech nature of RIT account for this?</p>

<p>graduation rates:
Villanova 85%
Loyola of Maryland 82%
Providence C 85%
Fairfield U 79%
Coll of NJ 82%
Bentley 78%
Ithaca College 74%
RIT 59%
U Scranton 80%
St Joseph's (PA) 76%</p>

<hr>

<p>Some universities have increased their selectivity over the past 15 years and the graduation rate has increased correspondingly:</p>

<p>school, 1992 grad rate, 1992 SAT 25th percentile (recentered), 1992 SAT 75th percentile (recentered), grad rate change, SAT 25th change, SAT 75th change</p>

<p>RIT 54 1040 1230 59 1110 1310 5 70 80
Washington U 76 1180 1370 91 1360 1520 15 180 150
USC 56 1080 1280 83 1270 1440 27 190 160
Penn State 57 1080 1280 84 1100 1300 27 20 20
UCLA 63 1080 1340 87 1170 1410 24 90 70
UC Berkeley 70 1070 1350 87 1220 1450 17 150 100
Purdue 61 990 1310 66 1030 1260 5 40 -50
Northwestern 84 1220 1410 93 1320 1500 9 100 90
Syracuse 75 1090 1270 79 1110 1320 4 20 50</p>

<p>some observations:
RIT's and Northwestern's SATs increased by 75-95 points but the grad rate only increased 5-9 points. These are both co-op schools on the quarter system.</p>

<p>Purdue's SATs are lower than RIT's but the graduation rate is higher. Purdue's SAT 75th percentile actually went down. What happened to selectivity at Purdue?</p>

<p>Washington U, USC, UCLA, and Berkeley had large increases in SATs and large increases in graduation rates.</p>

<p>Syracuse' SATs only went up a little and the graduation rate only went up a little (as you might expect).</p>

<h2>Penn State's SATs changed very little (20 points) but the graduation rate went up by 27 percent. How did they do that? Are they faking the graduation rate? Had they miscalculated their graduation rate in the past?</h2>

<p>Among top 10 schools, the graduation rates have gone up from year 1992 to 2007 by 4-8%. Why?</p>

<p>school, 1992 grad rate, 2007 grad rate</p>

<p>Princeton 93 97
Harvard 93 98
Yale 92 96
Caltech 81 90
MIT 87 94
Stanford 89 94
Penn 87 94
Duke 92 93
Dartmouth 95 93
Chicago 79 91
Columbia 90 94</p>

<p>observations: BIG grad rate increases at Caltech, Chicago (How?)</p>

<h2>slight decrease at Dartmouth</h2>

<p>How can a school increase its graduation rate?
lower grading standards?
higher SATs?
smaller, better student body?
something else?</p>

<p>How much control does a school have over graduation rates?</p>

<p>What does the graduation rate tell you?</p>

<p>Would a low graduation rate prevent you from applying?</p>

2

<p>I suspect RIT problem does have to do with the difficulty of the tech curriculum. Rochester is cold. Quality of life may not be high; lack of school spirit.</p>

<p>You mentioned Northwestern increased "only" 9 points. Given it's 93% now (can't go much higher) they've done well in this department. Do you mean Northeastern when talking about a co-op school on quarter system?</p>

<p>Obviously MIT and Caltech rates are high for tech since they are the cream of the crop, only the most serious and dedicated are accepted.</p>

<p>Penn State....it's just a FUN place to go to school. Why leave? Almost everyone who goes/went there loves the place.</p>

<p>Besides smarter students, or at least more capable in the stats department, I don't think grade inflation adds much although it may keep more kids from flunking out. Besides top academics quality of life issues (nice dorms, good counseling, lots to do, cool city, etc) keep kids happy.</p>

3

<p>Maybe so many people drop out or transfer because RIT is sooo ugly and weird.</p>

4

<p>despite the fact that I graduated high school in 2004 (thus, college will be in 2008), most of my RIT friends have themselves listed on facebook as "RIT 2009" even when they were freshmen. Not sure why though!</p>

5

<p>I hope kk reads post #2.</p>

6

<p>2331clk-
I meant Northwestern. I think they have a quarter system and a co-op program and a large engineering school. The comparison with RIT ends there.</p>

<p>You are right, it is hard to improve much on a 93% graduation rate. A 9% increase is actually quite good at that upper level.</p>

7

<p>as a native Rochesterian, transplanted to SoCal after 18 + years, my immediate thought is that, well, the Rochester weather absolutely sucks. The campus is techy brick style, adding to the impression of coldness. That said, they may have a great program there, if you can hack the climate. Maybe if you like to snowboard or ski?
also, could it have to do with the co-op programs? do people get good jobs via co-op and decide not to bother graduating?</p>

8

<p>We investigated this issue for my daughter. There are a number of reasons, in my opinion, for the lower graduation rate, much of which has little to do with school quality:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>RIT overall isn't that hard to get into. They accept about 65%-70% of their applicants although this does vary from school to school within the university. However, it is uniformly a very tough school to do well in. I think that many kids go there without an understanding of how difficult a technical school can be. You mentioned that the graduation rate of schools such as Cal Tech, MIT, ivy schools etc. have a much higher graduation rate. However , they also have very tough admission standards. Generally, retention has a direct corellation with the toughness of the admission standards. The higher the admission standards, the greater the retention. This certainly isn't RIT's fault, and I personally applaud them for maintaining high standards for their students</p></li>
<li><p>There is comparatively little to do on campus. Unlike other schools such as Penn State, Ohio State, Northwestern and other big name schools, RIT doesn't have a lot of school spirit. For example, sports, which really does build school spirit ( such as with University of Miami and Syracuse), isn't that strong RIT. RIT's strongest sport is hocky, which isn't that popular in the US. Frankly with the weather being so cold, who wants to play tennis, football, baseball etc. Kids tend to stay indoors, and I think develop cabin fever.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>This is compounded by the fact that RIT really isn't right near anything. Yes, Rochester has a lot to do in the City, but you really need a car to get anywhere. Even with a car. Rochester still isn't as neat a city for a college student as other cities such as Boston, NY, Miami, Wash DC etc.</p>

<p>Also, unlike other technical schools such as CMU, RIT doesn't have a drama program or musical theater. This reduces the activities available on campus and reduces the number of girls that apply to RIT, which will be discussed below.</p>

<p>I should note that RIT is building a "student city" where there will be restaurants and shops. However, this will take a long time to build and to finish. I also don't know about the type of facilites or stores that will be in the city. For example, I wonder whether there will be a bowling alley in the city?</p>

<p>I should also note that RIT is trying to increase activities on campus by supporting lots of clubs. There are over 100 clubs right now available to students. However, my feeling is that this just isn't enough to overcome the other problems.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It's REALLY cold in Rochester: Rochester is very, very cold most of the year. In addition, they get a lot of snow , and it can be quite overcast and dreary most of the year. Thus, kids tend to stay indoors a lot. I guess many kids get cabin fever. The weather can also be depressing if kids are cooped up for too long a period of time.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT has a mediocre male/female ratio. The ratio of guys to girls was about 70-30. RIT is trying to remedy this,but, most of the girls are found in the school of imaging science and art. Thus, their might be one girl for ten guys in the science and engineering courses. This is a REAL problem for them that they need to remedy.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Also, many girls tend to study humanities related stuff such as history, English, etc. These areas on not strong at RIT and thus, don't attract a lot of students who want to major in humanities related majors ( other than for art and design).</p>

<ol>
<li><p>RIT does have a coop program. US News rankings really doesn't handle schools with coops well. This may require many kids to graduate in 5 years or more. This, thus reduces the potential 4 year graduation rate.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids might take jobs as a result of their coop: Sometimes kids are offered full time jobs through their coop experience. They might then switch to part time status and take 6 or more years to graduate.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT doesn't seem to have the support system found at some other schools. At some schools such as Syracuse University, Villanova,etc., there is a strong support system of tutors, counseling and other forms of help for students.Although professors are accessible at RIT, I never got the feeling that there was nearly as much hand holding and support for kids as found at other schools. Perhaps because RIT is less expensive than Syracuse and that of other private schools, they don't have the money for this type of support. Who knows? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>There are probably others who can paint a broader picture than I. These are just based on my opinions while touring the school. I certainly could be in error regarding one or more points. See the thread, "Overview of Our Vist to RIT" found in the RIT forums.</p>

9

<p>We investigated this issue for my daughter. There are a number of reasons, in my opinion, for the lower graduation rate, much of which has little to do with school quality:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>RIT overall isn't that hard to get into. They accept about 65%-70% of their applicants although this does vary from school to school within the university. However, it is uniformly a very tough school to do well in. I think that many kids go there without an understanding of how difficult a technical school can be. You mentioned that the graduation rate of schools such as Cal Tech, MIT, ivy schools etc. have a much higher graduation rate. However , they also have very tough admission standards. Generally, retention has a direct corellation with the toughness of the admission standards. The higher the admission standards, the greater the retention. This certainly isn't RIT's fault, and I personally applaud them for maintaining high standards for their students</p></li>
<li><p>There is comparatively little to do on campus. Unlike other schools such as Penn State, Ohio State, Northwestern and other big name schools, RIT doesn't have a lot of school spirit. For example, sports, which really does build school spirit ( such as with University of Miami and Syracuse), isn't that strong RIT. RIT's strongest sport is hocky, which isn't that popular in the US. Frankly with the weather being so cold, who wants to play tennis, football, baseball etc. Kids tend to stay indoors, and I think develop cabin fever.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>This is compounded by the fact that RIT really isn't right near anything. Yes, Rochester has a lot to do in the City, but you really need a car to get anywhere. Even with a car. Rochester still isn't as neat a city for a college student as other cities such as Boston, NY, Miami, Wash DC etc.</p>

<p>Also, unlike other technical schools such as CMU, RIT doesn't have a drama program or musical theater. This reduces the activities available on campus and reduces the number of girls that apply to RIT, which will be discussed below.</p>

<p>I should note that RIT is building a "student city" where there will be restaurants and shops. However, this will take a long time to build and to finish. I also don't know about the type of facilites or stores that will be in the city. For example, I wonder whether there will be a bowling alley in the city?</p>

<p>I should also note that RIT is trying to increase activities on campus by supporting lots of clubs. There are over 100 clubs right now available to students. However, my feeling is that this just isn't enough to overcome the other problems.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It's REALLY cold in Rochester: Rochester is very, very cold most of the year. In addition, they get a lot of snow , and it can be quite overcast and dreary most of the year. Thus, kids tend to stay indoors a lot. I guess many kids get cabin fever. The weather can also be depressing if kids are cooped up for too long a period of time.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT has a mediocre male/female ratio. The ratio of guys to girls was about 70-30. RIT is trying to remedy this,but, most of the girls are found in the school of imaging science and art. Thus, their might be one girl for ten guys in the science and engineering courses. This is a REAL problem for them that they need to remedy.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Also, many girls tend to study humanities related stuff such as history, English, etc. These areas on not strong at RIT and thus, don't attract a lot of students who want to major in humanities related majors ( other than for art and design).</p>

<ol>
<li><p>RIT does have a coop program. US News rankings really doesn't handle schools with coops well. This may require many kids to graduate in 5 years or more. This, thus reduces the potential 4 year graduation rate.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids might take jobs as a result of their coop: Sometimes kids are offered full time jobs through their coop experience. They might then switch to part time status and take 6 or more years to graduate.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT doesn't seem to have the support system found at some other schools. At some schools such as Syracuse University, Villanova,etc., there is a strong support system of tutors, counseling and other forms of help for students.Although professors are accessible at RIT, I never got the feeling that there was nearly as much hand holding and support for kids as found at other schools. Perhaps because RIT is less expensive than Syracuse and that of other private schools, they don't have the money for this type of support. Who knows? </p></li>
<li><p>Housing is a real problem: Althoughl RIT guarantees housing for all the years of a student, it doens't guarantee that you will either like the housing or be near your classes. While they do have some nice appartment type housing, geting them is very difficult. You either must win the lottery or get to know someone who has an appartment. They do have plenty of housing at a nearby hotel and other places that require a bus in order to get to the main campus. Frankly, who wants to have to take a bus to get to class each day? I guess kids can bring their cars and pay for parking as an alternative. Still, it is a far cry from having dorms that are close by and within walking distance of all classes. They have too few dorms that are within walking distance, and these are mostly for freshmen.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT is not as diverse at it appears. I believe that great diversity in all ways helps the educational program for students and provides more things to do since differing groups look for and sponsor differing types of activities. RIT has some decent geographic diversity although most kids are from NY.They don't, however, have a lot of nomal minorites that you would expect to see at most schools. For example, RIT has a very small Jewish presence among students for whatever reason. While I was touring RIT, I also didn't see a lot of underrepresented minorities. I don't know how much this affects the quality and quantity of things to do, but I suspect that it does have some affect.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>There are probably others who can paint a broader picture than I. These are just based on my opinions while touring the school. I certainly could be in error regarding one or more points. See the thread, "Overview of Our Vist to RIT" found in the RIT forums.</p>

10

<p>taxguy-
Thanks so much for your candid, thoughtful, and insightful reply!</p>

11

<p>Collegehelp. sorry for the double post. I was having posting progrems. Go to the second post, post number 9 instead of post number 7.</p>

12

<p>bump bump.....</p>

13

<p>If that number is based on 4 year graduation rate, then it makes sense because almost nobody graduates in 4 years because of co-op.</p>

14

<p>Since this thread is really 3 yrs old I’m assuming most people have put this issue to rest.</p>

15

<p>I’m going to be a freshman at RIT in the fall and after reading some of the posts here, I’m really starting to regret letting my parents talk me out of RPI. What concerns me the most is that I’m hearing there isn’t much support for students. Sure, professors are available at specific times, but that’s not enough. At 38k per year, I’d like to know I’m getting an education worth every cent my family and I are spending on it. I’ll give it a year, but I may consider transferring to RPI or WPI.</p>

16

<p>The most I can say, given that I have only been to one university (RIT) is that school is what you make of it. I am personally very glad I went to RIT, as I know that I would not have made the same friends at any other place.</p>

<p>Basically, it comes down to what you personally want to get out of school. </p>

<p>The retention rate can vary for reasons that neither make sense nor apply to you personally.</p>

<p>In my opinion, RIT has a poor retention rate because they let too many people into a difficult school. Does that make RIT a bad place? Only if you weren’t prepared.</p>

17

<p>I’m not worried about the level of difficulty at RIT because I feel I’m prepared and I’ve chosen a field(s) of study that suits me best and I’m interested in. I’m more concerned at this point that the staff at RIT will not be very encouraging or supportive of my interest in more than one field of science and technology. RPI has plenty of support systems in place for students that I saw when I visited.</p>

18

<p>What you see when you visit a school tells you almost nothing about a school. Most of what tour guides show and tell you is a stretch at best.</p>

<p>Looking back over your previous posts, I see that you expect something better than “professors [who] are available at specific times.” While I can respect that desire, I think it is unrealistic at any institution. The fact of the matter is that professors teach for most of the day, and have lives of their own. Devoting a few hours to the students they teach is already a substantial commitment.</p>

<p>What support systems do you think RPI has that RIT does not?</p>

19

<p>Just a heads-up that I am in RIT MS Computers Science program, starting this fall. I am from University of Rochester BS Electrical and Computer Engineering and minor Brain and Cognitive Science, and now I am pleased to see that I finally got into the school which is way better for job recruitment. </p>

<p>I do like the quarter systems more than semester systems though. This is something any prospects like you should look at too.</p>

20

<p>tabletcorry, disregard my last post. I’ve been here for almost 3 weeks now and RIT is awesome! I definitely chose the right place for me, but I have to agree with you about the retention rate issue. A number of the students in my classes have no clue what they’re doing and the material we’re covering is not difficult. If they think it’s bad now, just wait until the more advanced classes kick in!
It doesn’t make RIT a bad place at all. I do think that RIT could and rightfully should be fussier about the caliber of student it accepts. It’s rankings appear to be rising nationally and even internationally. I don’t see why it won’t raise it’s standards.</p>