Rush

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington & Lee University
61

<p>Well, here we go again. I am truly sorry for making the admissions comment; it was an inappropriate slip (not intended as an attack) in a moment of anger at the ad-hominem attacks made by fellow posters. </p>

<p>But because of that previous post, I now feel obligated to respond. The entire concept of a "elite" frat/srat is exactly what I can't stand about the environment here. I feel I have been entirely honest with my personal issues which may have an effect on my feelings for the school. Dima was clearly imlpying that I am bitter because didn't get into the "elite" fraternity I wanted to. In fact, it is quite the contrary. I chose a fraternity that I felt was the best match for my personal beliefs, and I couldn't be happier with that decision. Unfortunately, a certain fraternity whose bid I turned down seems to have taken my decision personally and now some members of that house consider me a sworn enemy. They actually dirty rushed my fraternity so much during rush last year that it turned me off from joining that house. Now they make it a personal issue and don't allow me to go to their house to see my friends from freshman year. This is an example of the immature high school-like atmosphere to which I have routinely referred.</p>

<p>Again, could you PLEASE take my comments at face value and see I am saying why W&L may not be the place for people LIKE ME. I still feel it is a WONDERFUL school and I do not want to actively defame it. Unfortunately the language I used in some previous posts was overly hyperbolic and may have painted an unfair picture, and that I regret. There are pros and cons to every school, and I am just trying to paint a full picture based on my experience at this institution. If you have access to it, please just read the editorial articles that the Phi has published all through this year. Perfectly concurrent with my sentiments. If the school paper feels the need to publish the same views, clearly they are not restricted to a bitter minority of the student body. I believe I have mentioned this before, but just in case I haven't--many of the friends I refer to are in the "elite" fraternities that Dima mentions, and they share my sentiments. The bitter minority argument is simply invalid.</p>

<p>(Also, it should be noted that all of the W&L student posters on this forum, including me, [I do know who each of them are] really do not serve as a good representation of W&L's student body. We are all in no way the prototypical W&L students you read about in the Princeton Review. So, my point is, there are people who clearly don't fit the W&L stereotype but still enjoy it. It's not impossible to like this school.)</p>

62

<p>
[quote]
a certain fraternity whose bid I turned down seems to have taken my decision personally and now some members of that house consider me a sworn enemy. They actually dirty rushed my fraternity so much during rush last year that it turned me off from joining that house. Now they make it a personal issue and don't allow me to go to their house to see my friends from freshman year. This is an example of the immature high school-like atmosphere to which I have routinely referred.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think most people can see right through this,
and it does go some way in explaining the "vendetta" Morgan has been pursuing here. </p>

<p>At this point, this whole discussion has become unproductive.
Probably it should be put to bed. Or call it a mercy killing? :)</p>

63

<p>
[Quote]

[Quote]
Normal interaction between the sexes simply fails to exist at W&L

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>This ludicrous assertion, part and parcel of a series of jeremiads Morgan has posted in this thread, is simply breathtaking. We are painted a picture of a hideous, lawless jungle, rife with rampant drugtaking, sexual assault, alcoholism, depression, and eating disorders. Why on earth hasn't the Health Department shut down this festering den of iniquity?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think the statistic is that by graduation, 80% of W&L kids will at one point or another receive counseling for whatever reason.</p>

<p>W&L is great academically, but the social scene - the gossip, the hierarchy, the meaningless hook-ups, the image-obsession, etc., do get to people eventually. I'm only a freshman, and I think that for everyone at W&L, there comes a point when they realize exactly what they are in, and figure out how to respond. The infamous fall term is when every freshman is naive enough to defend any and all negative views of the place.</p>

<p>Seeing the guys do pledgeship really kicks it in for me.</p>

<p>As for the interaction of the sexes, I was told by an upperclassmen early on not to hook up with anyone more than two times, because that would mean we were "dating." I find the hookup culture disgusting. And when there is a hookup, W&L is small enough so that everyone knows how it went down, the very next morning.</p>

<p>And sure, there are people that don't "fit" in at this school, but usually, there is a social group of like people for them to make great friends, too. To prospective students, I'd say definitely give W&L a chance, you might hate it, you might love it, but if you completely ignore this institution, you are missing out.</p>

64

<p>I'm curious about something. The term "hook-up" has been used several times in this thread to describe what appears to be a basic element of the W&L social scene. The term is used so casually and often that it makes me wonder if casual sex and promiscuity is the routine at what is routinely described as a values-based conservative university attended by nice church-going kids. It seems like its either the "hook-up" or "serious dating." Nothing in between. What ever happened to the date or evening spent at a party where the guy and the girl return to their respective rooms (frat, srat or dorm)? Am I just a dinosaur? Or am I reading too much into the term "hook-up?"</p>

65

<p>Dating is dead. I know, it's sad, but that's how things work now.</p>

<p>And "hook-up" does not always neccessarily mean sex, usually it's the middle ground between making out and sex. I'm pretty disgusted by it.</p>

66

<p>WOW. I go away for a day and come back to too many new posts in this thread for me to read. I promise, I'll catch up later. For now, I'd like to defend Morgan.</p>

<p>Anyone who read through my famous (infamous?) thread "Honestly Now" can see that Morgan and I have disagreed on major points concerning W&L. He is not a personal friend of mine and I feel no loyalty towards him for any reason. However, I think we have a few important things in common. We aren't blind to the important problems and issues at W&L and we do our best to share our HONEST opinions about the school with CC readers. Maybe Marsden has a point and I (as someone who transferred out of W&L) should spend a little less time on the W&L board. Unfortunately, my college's board is much less active, though I quickly answer any question that comes my way from prospective students. Also, I don't go back to my school until Saturday, soooo I have plently of time for this message board (lucky readers). Though I have had an arguably worse experience at W&L than Morgan, I don't have a "vendetta" against the school either. Listen, if you prospective students want to hear how wonderful W&L is and want everything sugar-coated for you, check out wlu.edu, or flip through one of the glossy brochures they sent to you. This discussion board is about asking people who have attended certain schools to share their experiences with prospective students. Different viewpoints are presented, and everyone who reads them is free to make up his or her mind about each post. </p>

<p>As far as "interaction between the sexes", I believe Morgan is correct. Especially after experiencing life at another university, I can see how men and women are kept separate quite often at W&L. I've heard this opinion expressed by MANY upperclassmen (especially girls). </p>

<p>Like I've said before, there are many good, even great, things about W&L, but you can read all about them online. It's easy to find out the good things about W&L, we're just trying to warn you about everything else! College Confidential discussion boards would be poor resources if no one ever shared a negative experience....</p>

67

<p>I would disagree with GreekLife about dating being dead. In fact out of the 7 guys in my pledge class, 5 have serious girlfriends. I do agree with whittier though that there seems to be no in-between. It's either hooking up and casual sex or a serious relationship. Taking someone out on a date unless they're your girlfriend is just weird and made fun of. I just think that W&L guys are quite immature and the Greek system only makes it worse (you're surrounded by a bunch of guys encouraging random hookups and making fun of the idea of dating). Then all of a sudden they really like one girl, get serious, and end up graduating engaged and buying a huge diamond engagement ring with daddy's money. </p>

<p>See, I can be bitter too :)</p>

68

<p>It seems like the freshman class is actually going on dates. (really, I've seen it!) I know of several people who went on dates. Some of them hooked up beforehand, some of them didn't, but there was definitely that in-between step. However, that is certainly not the norm.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I feel that that is a product of our culture nowadays more than the W&L atmosphere. My sister, who attends a large Ivy league university, practically the opposite of W&L in many ways, warned me before I came to W&L that just because I hook up with a boy (which really can mean anything from a kiss to sex) doesn't mean it means anything. I have seen this phenomenon at every school I've ever visited. There certainly are the nice church-going young men and women who refrain from the hook up scene (these are often the same young men and women who refrain from drinking, the two are fairly intrinsically linked).</p>

<p>I would disagree that hooking up more than twice means your dating, it just means that there was some sort of actual attraction there rather than simply alcohol. People that hook up a lot tend to end up dating, but not always. The semi-serious hookup often becomes unintentionally exclusive, at which point both parties simply evaluate whether they truly want to date (this often happens right before breaks, when potential old flames from home loom). </p>

<p>I wouldn't say dating is dead, I would say that it is simply a lot different than it was even a few years ago. Facebook and cell phones have completely eliminated the three-day wait by the phone, and simply moved dating into a new realm. Not necessarily a good realm, but one where "studying" becomes dating and exclusive hook-ups becomes a precursor to a relationship.</p>

69

<p>fwiw, what beautyistruth says ^^ sounds very much like what I have heard over the past few years from students at other campuses (Wake, Davidson, UVa, Richmond, etc.)</p>

70

<p>It seems to me that the "Dating is Dead" thread that's somehow worked its way into this discussion is likely more a phenomenon of college culture in general, not just W&L.</p>

71

<p>I'm a W&L student. I'm not a regular on this site, but someone forwarded me a link to this discussion. I am in a fraternity and it's working out just fine. But I think going independent is and should be a viable option for anyone who doesn't want to go the frat/srat route. One of the happiest guys that I know here is an independent, by choice. We thought he was crazy when we rushed, but in retrospect, it looks like he had it figured out. Contrary to popular belief, he's not ostracized He has plenty of friends, has a girlfriend, goes to whatever parties he wants, kayaks, hikes, is involved in sports and takes full advantage of everything the school and Lexington have to offer. The Greek percentage at W&L is abnormally high. Independent life is the norm at most of our peer schools, and we may need to work a little harder to let people know that independent is an acceptable choice here. And yes, the way sororities rush here is, well, bizarre. There's got to be a better way.</p>

72

<p>You know what, after having a lot of deep conversations with friends and administrators, I'm definitely staying, for a couple reasons. First, if I leave, I can't go abroad, and going abroad is sweet. Second, The problems mentioned in this thread do exist but are being improved upon rapidly. Things like the Gender Relations Committee have a lot of motivated students who do recognize these problems and are coming up with creative solutions. My fraternity is starting to do things with MSA, PACE, and other multicultural student organizations, acting as a bridge between the Greek and non-Greek student life. I am basically being written a blank check to do whatever I and other students want in terms of programming (comedians, small bands, etc.) for next year. </p>

<p>W&L right now is ripe for leadership opportunities, so if you are a natural leader you will have an amazing experience here. The administration is extremely supportive of any initiatives brought up by students and they will work closely with you to achieve whatever you want. Also, I've already started re-connecting with my old friends in other frats/srats now that rush is over. My girl friends I had last year really want to start hanging out in mixed gender, non-party settings again. Just opening up a dialog with fellow students allows you to see that most people do share the same sentiments, and that student power needs to be harnessed. There really are too many positive things about W&L to let the aforementioned issues make you overlook it in your college search. I hope this helps!</p>

73

<p>^ That's a good point. I feel like fall term sophomore year (specifically for guys) is really tough because you're so busy with rush. This term since I don't have to spend all of my time rushing freshmen for the fraternity, I've been able to spend a lot more time with my friends from freshman year.</p>

74

<p>Quoting GreekLife</p>

<p>
[quote}I think the statistic is that by graduation, 80% of W&L kids will at one point or another receive counseling for whatever reason.
[/quote]
</p>

<p>I find that an amazing "statistic". By counseling are you referring to two friends deciding who they should go out with, whether to grow a beard, or if it's true that Professor X's class is hard? If by "counseling", you are referring to actual paid professionals that deal with emotional issues that statistic must be either hideously overblown or W&L has gone seriously downhill since admiting women. When I was at W&L in the 70's, I would doubt that even 5% of students sought counseling (and I know of none that did in the 100 plus friends that I had). Your statistic would make it highly unusual for someone to go through four years at W&L without seeking counseling which I simply do not believe.</p>

<p>W&L is not for everyone. Personally, I think it is a wonderful school and I wish my son wanted to go there. W&L is not a good fit for him for reasons having nothing to do with fraternities. However, if he was interested, I would definitely want to make sure that he was interested in being in a fraternity. And if he wasn't, I would no more send him to W&L than I would send him to Howard University or Sweet Briar because he wouldn't fit in those schools either.</p>

75

<p>By counseling I mean the psychiatrists and psychologists. W&L employs like three or four I think. Students can go for free.</p>

<p>I think more girls than guys go to counseling, but the percentage is really high for both.</p>

76

<p>neither I nor any of my friends have ever gone through counseling at W&L -- that I know of. I don't actually know of anyone who's gone to see a psychiatrist at W&L. it's possible that it's simply information they don't feel like sharing, though. I do know friends who go to counseling / have seen psychiatrists while at their homes, but that is 100% unrelated to W&L.</p>

77

<p>Even if it were true that 80% of W&L students had sought professional counseling -- which I doubt -- that wouldn't necessarily say anything negative about the school.</p>

<p>The rate at which people seek counseling has much more to do with how stigmatized counseling is in that population than the rate of mental anguish in the population. Any school would have an 80% rate if we completely got rid of the stigma, but there's no population I know of that's gotten there yet. Even psychiatrists don't seek help at the rate they need it.</p>

78

<p>The "statistic" in question is a complete fabrication. </p>

<p>It's amazing how much BS has been spread in this single thread.</p>

79

<p>Why couldn't this thread have just ended with Morgan's last post and Dima's response? Both sides admitted to hyberole and everything appeared to be resolved. Let's not debate statistics that aren't relevant or useful to anyone reading this.</p>

80

<p>


</p>

<p>"According to a 2004 health survey, 44% of W&L students reported that they felt so depressed that it was difficult to function, 14.4% of students have been diagnosed with clinical depression, 7% of students seriously considered attempting suicide in the past years, and 5 students reported that they attempted to commit suicide at least once."</p>

<p>"Depression affects nearly 1 in 5 students on this campus."</p>

<ul>
<li><a href="http://studentaffairs.wlu.edu/Universitycounseling/mooddisorders.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://studentaffairs.wlu.edu/Universitycounseling/mooddisorders.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li>
</ul>