<p>You shouldn't go to a school based on rankings....it should be based on "fit". Many larger schools could up their "rankings" by setting up ways to make their statistics look good....for example Clemson has this "bridge" program where they don't officially admit the weaker students...they make them take their freshmen classes at the local technical school and if they do well they are automatically enrolled as sophomores to Clemson (these students wouldn't factor in to their freshmen class rankings) etc....a lot of schools(UVA I believe too) do things like that to alter rankings.
Also, many professors turned down chances for PhD's at highly ranked Ivies to get degrees in their specialized fields, so looking at that isn't a great indicator either, unless one knows the specific subspecialty and ranking etc...of those...it gets really complicated...there are so many variables in choosing a college and rankings--if one wants to use that-- is just a minor part of the equation. My daughter has received acceptances to several top 15 schools--all "higher" ranked than USC, but she has narrowed her selection down to 2--USC and one of her "higher" ranked schools, because of the fit of these 2 colleges. Choosing a school based solely on rankings is superficial and reminds me of a girl I know of that wouldn't go to the prom with a boy ranked out of the top ten in her HS class---she had a horrible time at the prom by the way!</p>
<p>Wow AFA, let us know how you really feel next time! </p>
<p>I think Tribe made some good points. His ranking comments were just a small part of his post. W&M is probably the best small sized state-supported university in the entire country. That being said, I do agree that the post would have been better as a PM. </p>
<p>It's like SCmember said, it all depends on fit: a state university with a private, liberal arts college feel, small emphasis on athletics, traditional campus in a very historic part of the country vs a larger research university with lots of great opportunities to rub elbows with professors who are doing cutting edge research, great sports programs, and just an overall great place to be!</p>
<p>How can either choice be a bad one! The schools are as different as night and day, which I think is what is making the choice so difficult. </p>
<p>I will be extremely proud of him whichever school he chooses.</p>
<p>How is it that Tribe even found this forum and knew to write that statement about W&M vs. USC?
I question their in depth knowledge of W&M as they said they attended a junior college and then transferred in,but that being said...its not a contest ,as namtrag said..its all about fit.
And as far as PhD's go,scmember is correct.People choose graduate programs for all sorts of reasons,sometimes it's economic and geographic (a better fellowship $$,a spouse located in a certain city,etc). Sometimes, as in D's case, she specifically went to a certain midwest private U to work with a particular mentor in the area of musicology she's interested in.While to an outsider (outside of her area) might not know the name and compare it to an "IVY" someone IN the field will know,"oh..so and so is the grad director at .... and they are training their PhD's in .... and .... specialties".A friend of our family,who received his PhD is biology a few years back, had to transfer schools along with his mentor,when her grant financed lab's affiliation was changed from one U to another and the grad studeents went along.
So the point is,without knowing the PhD's backstory,there's no way of judging based simply on school name.</p>
<p>One other thing to consider and it is a known fact. Having a Ph.D from a more elite school does not in and of itself make you a better teacher. One of the very best profs I had in school got his Ph.D at what would probably today be considered a lower second tier school yet he was brilliant, engaging, had an incredible depth AND breadth of knowledge and was ALWAYS available for us at any time....including offering to meet at his home. His class was the most thought provoking and challenging class I took in four years and by far the one I felt most proud of achieving an A in during my undergrad career. Many shied away from his class because it was so challenging and viewed it as a GPA buster.</p>
<p>Degree pedigree does NOT equal master in the classroom....</p>
<p>namtrag,</p>
<p>All I was originally going to say was that it should have been a PM - to you. But tribe's verbose post came off more as WM chest thumping when thrown out there as an open post for the rest of the potential Gamecocks posting - no apologies from me for speaking my mind. </p>
<p>I think everyone can admit that a college "fit" shouldn't be overly swayed by rankings. I'm also sure most parents will justify the choices made by throwing out such stats to bolster any self-doubt. Hell, I use the Moore Business School rank everytime someone asks me - why USC?</p>
<p>I agree AFA, it was over the top. A short, concise post would have been more acceptable, and even welcome.</p>
<p>In a lot of cases, I think we are all too "rank" conscious, especially the kids that visit CC. They all want to know opinions on whether such and such U is overrated or underrated, etc.</p>
<p>I think "Tribe" must have been reading Namtrags posts on the W&M forum, not sure why he/she couldn't have posted there.</p>
<p>He/she put the exact same post on the W&M board too. Oh well, I hope the person meant well, and was not trying to put USC down...sometimes what we type comes across the wrong way.</p>
<p>WILLIAM AND MARY
Percent applicants admitted: 32%
Total undergrads: 5,734</p>
<p>College of William and Mary</p>
<p>Middle 50% of
First-Year Students Percent Who
Submitted Scores
SAT Critical Reading: 630 - 730 97%
SAT Math: 630 - 710 97%
SAT Writing: - 97%
ACT Composite: 28 - 31 3%</p>
<p>University of South Carolina
Percent applicants admitted: 63%
Total undergrads: 18,648 </p>
<p>University of South Carolina
SAT Critical Reading: 520 - 620 82%
SAT Math: 540 - 640 82%
SAT Writing: - 82%
ACT Composite: 23 - 28 18%</p>
<p>USC honors College</p>
<p>2006<br>
Class Size 312
In-State 175 (56%)<br>
Out-of-State 137 (44%)<br>
Average Weighted GPA 4.47
Average SAT Score 1398<br>
25-75 percentile SAT Score Range 1335-1450 </p>
<p>WM Honors Colleges</p>
<p>Academic Profile
More than 80% of incoming students graduated in the top 10% of their high school classes; 68% scored over 1300 on the SAT; College Scholars will rank at the top of the profile, making up less than 1% of an already academically distinguished student body.</p>
<p>Monroe Scholars
Monroe Scholars represent approximately the top 7% of the student body. </p>
<p> - according to the stats, even though USC’s undergraduate student body is more than three times the size of William and Mary’s, William and Mary still has more students with High SAT scores. According to the data, approximately 1,433 kids at William and Mary have an SAT score of 1440 or higher. The USC honors college has only 312 students in its student body and only 25% have higher than a 1450. This equates to only 78 students at USC having above a 1450 or higher (even though the student body there is 18,648. In response to the comment about me going to the junior college, if you doubt my knowledge about William and Mary you can go to my college’s website and verify all the information I have provided thus far. Our school was founded in 1693, the second oldest college in America to Harvard. Our graduates include Thomas Jefferson who studied under George Wythe and William Small, a short Scot who was a Contemporary follower of David Hume. Small became Jefferson’s tutor of natural philosophy, origins of literature, and enlightenment philosophy. Other notable students of the college include John Tyler, Peyton Randolph, U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Marshall, General Winfield Scott, William Barton Rogers (founder of MIT), not to mention Robert Gates our current Secretary of Defense amongst many others. Look at William and Mary’s chancellors. They have included Henry Compton Bishop of London, Thomas Tenison Archbishop of Canterbury, Henry Compton Bishop of London, John Robinson Bishop of London, William Wake, Archbishop of Canterbury, Edmund Gibson Bishop of London, Thomas Sherlock Bishop of London, Thomas Hayter Bishop of London, Charles Wyndham Earl of Egremont, Philip Yorke Earl of Harwicke, Richard Terrick Bishop of London, George Washington First President of the United States, John Tyler Tenth President of the United States, Hugh Blair Grigsby Historian, John Stewart Bryan, Colgate W. Darden Jr., Alvin Duke Chandler, Warren E. Burger Fifteenth Chief Justice of the United States, Margaret Thatcher Former Prime Minister of Great Britain, Henry A. Kissinger, and now Sandra Day O’Connor. The facts do not lie. The numbers and people that have been associated with WM throughout history cannot be contested, even by someone who feels that this factual information does a disservice to the “Co##s”. I have never made the argument that WM is better than Harvard, nor that because someone attends USC they will not be successful in life. I have simply presented the facts. In my personal opinion, they are indicative of the fact that William and Mary presents an environment that fosters a greater potential for greatness as the academic quality of the students is on average much higher. William and Mary was a national treasure long before there was a nation to treasure it. The stats I provided before concerning acceptance to Med School and Law School are true. If someone can present me information showing that USC’s average acceptance rates to Law schools and Med schools are higher, I would love to be enlightened. This re-affirms the quality of the students here and the reputation of the school, further translating to the ability of students at the college to have access to high incomes if they so choose. I am not putting down USC or the opportunities it provides, but rather defending wm after receiving unwarranted negative comments by individuals who wished to contest a well-written and informative message which was intended to provide some guidance for an alum who is looking for information regarding the current state of the school. The facts are truthful and open to deliberation. As I have stressed before, in my personal opinion facts and rankings do matter when it comes to making a large investment in a son or daughter's future. The U.S. News rankings are based on 25% peer assessment, 20% retention rate, 20% faculty resources, 15% student selectivity, 10% financial resources, 5% Graduation rates, and 5% Alumni Giving. It's not just a bunch of fluff. Wanting to acquire an education from an institution which carries the highest quality of education an individual can access based on his grades and scores should not be considered a crime.</p>
<p>tribe - I don't want to get into a huge debate with you, but I must point out to you that your "facts" are inaccurate. For one thing - one must apply to be in the Honor's College at USC. The application itself is one of the most thorough many people have ever seen used. Many high scoring students choose not to apply - so the "fact" that only 78 students have an SAT above 1450 is false reasoning. Also - the honor's college invitation is based on more than scores - they also look at what else the student has accomplished, their goals, etc. So there may have been high scoring students who did apply and did not get an invite.
Personally I was not offended by your initial post - but now you are just being rude and not showing W&M ina very good light. : )</p>
<p>I can testify that my S was muttering a few unintelligibles as he filled out the USC HC application!</p>
<p>And I hope this thread can be kept civil. I believe cream rises to the top, no matter where it is located.</p>
<p>The USC HC stats are very impressive, I am sure anyone would agree. I am not sure the average SAT of W&M as a whole is quite that high. The Honors program at W&M is invitation only, I believe. I don't think there was a separate application for it.</p>
<p>There are great opportunities at both schools.</p>
<p>I am aware that you must apply for the USC honors college, otherwise there would not be one. Do you think you do not have to apply for the Murray Scholars or College Scholars at WM? Do you feel that the application process at WM is not as rigorous or thorough? Do you feel that the scores of the students in our honors colleges are less than the ones at USC? You refer to the fact I am being rude, as I have said in my previous message the facts are the facts. If you think they are rude, that is your opinion. Clearly, there is a disparity in the numbers between the two schools.</p>
<p>Sorry I won't be able to further respond, due to the fact I will be in library all weekend! P.S. if you are interested in combating political correctness go to <a href="http://www.savethewrencross.org%5B/url%5D">www.savethewrencross.org</a>. (hahaha)</p>
<p>I think it's interesting that "Tribe" just joined yesterday. A second screen name perhaps in order to make what was likely intended to be a pot-stirring post. Perhaps it is time to let this thread die and move on???</p>
<p>Monroe Scholars (what i meant instead of Murray earlier) must submit this application:</p>
<p>And Murray Scholars (College Scholars) is so selective that even after they are nominated they must write an essay and go through and interview process before the finalists are picked.</p>
<p>nominated students will be asked to submit an additional essay with their admission application. Admission applications for those interested in the Murray Scholars program must be submitted by December 1. </p>
<p>After an initial review of nominated applicants, the College's program committee will select finalists to be invited to William & Mary for a an expense-paid weekend visit in March. The date for this year is March 29 - March 31, 2007. Finalists will be interviewed by the selection committee, make a presentation, tour the campus, and meet with faculty and students. The committee will notify the finalists of its decisions shortly following their visit.</p>
<p>OK i'm done writing on this thread! time to study...</p>
<p>Hey tribe - while you are in the library look up the word "fact" LOL
Actually I didn't say it is a fact that you were being rude - that was my opinion.
I do not dispute the fact that there is a very talented group of students at W&M - just that your facts about the numbers at USC are flawed. I am not debating the differences in average scores , etc. They are 2 very different institutions with different missions and are fits for different students. I don't think you need to argue so much about your school's strengths - clearly you are happy there. Namtrag's son is trying to figure out where he would be happy - not necessarily which school can boast higher scores. He could find that info in any guide.
I'm sorry you did not understand that the way you presented your case was , in my opinion, condescending and flawed in some of your analysis. That's all - not saying USC is better than W&M or vice-versa.
Have fun at the library !</p>
<p>Don't worry namtrag - I won't be carrying on this debate with tribe any more LOL
You should be able to ask a question here or voice a concern without it becoming biting.</p>
<p>There is a disparity in the scores of the overall W&M student body vs the overall USC student body, that cannot be debated. The schools overall have a different mission.</p>
<p>But I think the average HC student at USC is at least as high scoring as the average W&M student. Since my S was not chosen to be a Monroe Scholar, the average HC scores at W&M are meaningless in the comparison. We are therefore forced to compare the average SAT of the W&M student body to the HC at USC, and I think they are quite similar. I also do not think my son had nearly as hard a time filling out his W&M application as he did with the USC HC one.</p>
<p>Just to show how facts can be somewhat misleading, let me know how good W&M's engineering school, medical school, or pharmacy school is. Oh, I forgot...they don't have those.</p>
<p>I used to throw out all the names of the presidents who attended W&M too, until my best friend, a VT grad said,"It's not like Jefferson and his buds had much choice where to go, W&M was pretty much it in Va back then." Or, "That was ancient history."</p>
<p>I love W&M and its traditions, but decisions driven solely by rankings and average SAT scores are not the best, IMHO.</p>
<p>I find that while you are factual and obviously passionate, you appear to be a little bit condescending in your tone. Subtlety is not your strength.</p>
<p>And I forgot to add, I have heard that TJ actually hated it at W&M. Why do you think he started THE University! lol hahahaha!</p>
<p>That's what my older son tells me (he is attending UVA).</p>
<p>namtrag I am glad to see you are able to maintain your sense of humor during this time .LOL
I am off to tour colleges with D2 tomorrow -I am exhausted just thinking about it. 6 schools in one week in 3 states.</p>