s/o from "Getting admitted before auditions" thread

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I was stunned when I read in the original post of that thread (sorry - I am a techno-moron and have no idea how to link to it), that "certain studios are already filled up way BEFORE audition day." I had no. idea. Is this common? Is it common knowledge that this happens? What's the point of the "true" audition if the studios are already full? Time, money, effort to go and audition live when all the spots are taken??? Maybe I completely misunderstood what was said, and, if so, I apologize. But, if it is true that many studios are full prior to auditions, how does one guard against this? My ds has had a couple of trial lessons, and we plan on doing more, but I find it alarming to hear that this happens. Is there some sort of "system" we need to be working? Sorry. I just found this concept disconcerting at best! Can someone please enlighten me? </p>

<p>I am NOT meaning to sound critical. Just not getting it. I feel awfully naive.</p>

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<p>Ask ahead of time if a teacher has openings.</p>

<p>D encountered this during her grad auditions. One extraordinarily popular teacher told her (ahead of her live audition) that he would have no openings, but would be willing to hear her on the outside chance that something would open up. Nothing opened, but she was still glad that they made a connection with him at the audition.</p>

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<p>Hoggirl, my daughter and I also find this to be disconcerting. We are the type that don’t believe in editing recordings, cheating on tests, etc…</p>

<p>When I asked my daughter’s current teacher about the practice (and he is also a music professor), he said this happens all the time. He added that in some studios, all the slots ARE filled up before the auditions come around. So that got me thinking, maybe I should get my daughter out to those couple of teachers whom she hasn’t yet met for sample lessons, and do it sooner rather than later.</p>

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<p>I wasn’t aware of this either. </p>

<p>There are two types of getting in: getting in to the conservatory, and getting in to the studio. I know that, for Juilliard for instance, a student composer auditions to get in, and provides a list of his or her top three choices for studios/teachers. The student may not get into the studio that is a top choice.</p>

<p>I still wonder if there was some misunderstanding and if the message was more like:" if you get in after auditioning, I (the teacher) would accept you into my studio."</p>

<p>For an instrument that has only one teacher, things are a little different. But normally, I am not even sure who knows how many slots there are for a given instrument/voice: probably admissions, since, if there’s more than one teacher, the teachers would only know the slots in their own studio, not the school as a whole.</p>

<p>And I am not referring to getting into the academic part of the school here. I am referring to free-standing conservatories, basically, or music schools for which grades and stats aren’t important, and admittance is primarily for musical ability.</p>

<p>Auditions at top places also test a person’s ability to withstand pressure. It seems surprising that a student could be admitted without having the same high stress situation, but apparently it does happen, in cases of talent. Many conservatories have very few spots for each instrument, so if I had a child who was auditioning, I would wonder about this too. I do think they tell people when there are no spots, so that there are no needless auditions, so as long as there is an audition, there is at least one spot!</p>

<p>I really don’t know much about any of this, and others will come along to enlighten I am sure.</p>

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<p>At schools with Graduate Programs, the slots for a studio (teacher) can easily fill up before auditions (popular teacher). But, usually, the program, as a whole (for that instrument), will have openings. You may not get the teacher you want. Many times, it is more important to get a great teacher than go to a great music school.</p>

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<p>

Juilliard’s system is a bit different than most conservatories-- but it is still sometimes the case that Juilliard instrumental teachers will have promised places in their studio before the start of auditions. A teacher may know a student from his/her precollege studio, or may know the student from a summer program. As long as the student passes the overall audition, they have a seat in the studio.</p>

<p>And yes, it’s true that it happens that auditions are held and yet slots have already been promised. Two years ago my daughter auditioned at a school that expected teachers to set their own studios. So, after her audition at the school itself, she played a second audition for a teacher (in a different city, while he was on tour) who told her frankly that he had already promised the one slot in his studio but would put her first on the wait-list. She got a call in May offering her the slot because (I guess) the other student decided to go elsewhere. So you see why auditions are held, even if slots are promised out in advance. My daughter ended up not accepting that slot, so presumably it went to the next person on the list.</p>

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<p>Well, this is a good thing for people to know. Glad it came up.</p>

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<p>The whole issue of being admitted before auditions and so forth is tough to delineate because the whole process of auditioning is not scientific and is subject to strange influences and weird things happening. I am always cautious when I hear words like the music teacher who said “it happens all the time”, because the actual cause of a studio being full or auditioning even if the studio is full can be a combination of factors. Likewise, there is a lot of talk that if a teacher wants a student in a school, that they get in, no matter what, and that has grains of truth to what I can tell, but also is not the total picture. </p>

<p>The real answer is like everything else in music, it depends. I know a student who only applied to Juilliard and got in…but before anyone says ‘this is unfair’, keep in mind a)the kid was already in their pre college program, and is playing at a level that many conservatory students are not at yet and b)was studying at pre college with the teacher they would study with at the college. He didn’t get in because the teacher pulled strings, if the admissions panel said the kid wasn’t qualified, he wouldn’t get in…but no teacher is going to do that, because their reputation would be mud…the advantage the kid had is the same advantage any kid who has studied with a teacher has, it is more likely said teacher would pull them into their studio then a kid coming from outside…or if a student has studied with a teacher at a summer festival, because they know the kid, it is more likely they will accept them. It isn’t a blind pool for studio admissions, because teacher/student is a very personal thing…doesn’t mean the students are admitted unfairly, means teachers will take kids they know into their studio more readily than those they don’t.</p>

<p>Can a studio be filled (or a whole department) before auditions? Yes, I think this can happen, but it is one of the reasons when you are auditioning to be realistic about your chances, that in fact you could be auditioning in futility. For example, one year at Juilliard the flutes had 1 opening and it was between grad and undergrad…and it could be the teacher already had someone in mind, who auditioned but basically was in effect taking that slot. </p>

<p>It is also why schools generally have you list your teacher’s preferences and they try to give you the top choice available, but it may not happen. You may get in and none of the teachers on your list have an opening, but another teacher showed interest, it is all part of the game.</p>

<p>What I am not sure happens all that much is that they will hold auditions even though they know there are no slots at all, where they decide to basically hold auditions for the heck of it…can that go on? Wouldn’t surprise me, but I also think this is the relatively rare exception. Admissions people are not cruel, they don’t get their jollies torturing music students, and they know for many people having someone fly in is expensive…as I noted above, it could be admissions thought there was 1 slot open and didn’t know the teacher had someone in mind, but to hold auditions with no open slots knowingly? I doubt it.</p>

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<p>

One reason they will do this (and it makes sense to me) is that even though a slot is promised, or even though the studio is already full with no spots for freshmen, there is always a chance that a student may transfer, drop out, go on leave, or not accept the reserved spot. So they need to have a back-up list.</p>

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<p>Good point, GH, that would make sense. The other thing is that schools do accept more students then they have slots for routinely, because some students choose not to go. Schools know statistically the percentage of kids who generally accept, which ranges in major music schools off the top of my head from roughly 75% to de facto almost 100%…so a school may admit let’s say on violin 2 more violin students then they have slots for, because they know of X violin students they admit 2 will likely not accept (that is a hypothetical number for example, I don’t know the details or particulars). However, in that case the school will still admit any student accepted, if they goofed on how many open slots they had, they will make room for everyone.</p>

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<p>Woodwind has the right take away from this thread. </p>

<p>Seconding musicprnt and glassharmonica; I think it might be more accurate to say, not that people are “getting admitted before auditions” but that they have made themselves known to the teacher and the teacher is interested in having them in his or her studio. So it’s not exactly the case that the studio is already full, but rather, the teacher is <em>reserving</em> spots for promising students they know intend to apply to their studio; often they are aware of more promising students than they know they can accept. </p>

<p>This is why many students make it a point to visit their top conservatory choices to play for teachers starting in their junior year and into their senior year, in order to be one of those for whom a possible space will be reserved. </p>

<p>I do think it is smart, if applying to a highly sought after studio at a top conservatory, to visit in advance of auditions and have a sample lesson if possible in order to be on the teacher’s radar screen.</p>

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<p>I understand that the situation varies from school to school, and also that in some cases the choice of teacher is more important than the school, but I would be cautious. Teachers–even those who names have been associated with the school for a long time–resign, retire or even die. I think it’s important that the student love the school regardless of the studio.</p>

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<p>Lawmom - great point!</p>

<p>Also keep in mind that at some schools both undergrad and grad students might be auditioning for the 1 - 2 slots available.</p>

<p>What we found with flute, was that many times, the same, very talented player, got accepted into multiple schools and then had to choose 1, thus opening up slots for the waitlisted students.</p>

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<p>I didn’t read every single post but I wonder - “All of the spots may be filled before auditions” doesn’t need to mean that the spots were filled before auditions. What I think of is that a studio may simply be full. If a school got more people than they thought they would one year, or if for some reason they don’t graduate out many people, there won’t be spots. How does the process of being accepted without audition happen? Do music students really get scouted out like athletes?</p>

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<p>I do think that some students are scouted out, perhaps like athletes. In the case I talked about in my original post, my daughter had attended a recital last year at this conservatory and went up to the professor to introduce herself. Then she discovered that he already knew who she was. </p>

<p>In the case on her other instrument, when she goes for a sample lesson at certain conservatories, the teachers will already know who she is through her own private teacher.</p>

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<p>Just to reinforce what musicprnt stated…
“The other thing is that schools do accept more students then they have slots for routinely, because some students choose not to go. Schools know statistically the percentage of kids who generally accept, which ranges in major music schools off the top of my head from roughly 75% to de facto almost 100%…so a school may admit let’s say on violin 2 more violin students then they have slots for, because they know of X violin students they admit 2 will likely not accept (that is a hypothetical number for example, I don’t know the details or particulars). However, in that case the school will still admit any student accepted, if they goofed on how many open slots they had, they will make room for everyone.”</p>

<p>The schools call this process yield. In some cases acceptances are up to double the amount of spots available, depending on the school and instrument…plus the waitlist.</p>

<p>I recently had the good fortune to attend a music college application roundtable where CIM, Eastman, Rice, U of Michigan, Jacobs and Oberlin provided a panel discussion on the entire process & q&a session. It appeared that this may have been one of the first times something like this was done. While the topic in this thread did not come up (now I wish it had) they stressed the importance of college visits / lessons and the do’s and don’ts for students and parents engaged in the process. It may be interesting to note that most of the seniors in the room are applying to five or more schools.</p>

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<p>In answer to whether music students are ‘recruited’, I think the answer is it depends on what you mean. The music admissions process in a nutshell is a)you have to pass the audition and b)there needs to be a teacher willing to teach you. If a teacher knows a prospective student and really likes them, it could be they ‘reserve’ a slot for them, which means if they had 2 slots open i.e two students were leaving his studio, in effect he would only take 1 student out of the audition process if the ‘reserved’ student in fact passes the audition (obviously if the student he liked didn’t pass, they might end up taking someone off the wait list). </p>

<p>I suspect (don’t have proof) that at ‘up and coming’ conservatories, those trying to establish credibility, will in effect recruit top tier students, to bring their levels up, and it could be that they basically are in, that the audition if it happens is a formality (this happens all the time with auditioned summer programs…). </p>

<p>Could a teacher have some student in mind and totally bypass the admissions process, basically say “I want X, and that is it?”. I am sure it goes on, but I also suspect these are students who are already out there and quite frankly would pass the audition anyway. One thing with music teachers is despite what they say, I suspect they all have healthy egos, and they really want their students to look good (remember, in conservatory, students go in front of juries and are measured all the time), and they wouldn’t bring someone in who doesn’t meet the standards of the program, it would be embarrassing.</p>

<p>Does that mean teachers don’t have the power to say “I want X, and that is it…”? No, not at all, where a single teacher decides admission then obviously they have that power, and I also have heard anecdotal evidence in certain programs where with auditions, teachers ‘bargain’ i.e they say “let x in and I’ll support y”, but I am not too certain that goes on, because again, that implies trying to get a student in who isn’t up to snuff or something…I also have heard the many conspiracy theories, that certain teachers are bribed by well off families to get their kid in, etc, and while I have sat in recitals at top level schools where I wondered how the person got in, I also doubt that is common, at least here in the US, it could be different internationally. Among other things, if a student needed a bribe to get in, it would imply they weren’t very good, and other teachers would start to wonder…:).</p>

<p>Want my honest opinion? It doesn’t matter…the process of admissions is not scientific, it is not really objective, and you have to accept that if you are bothering to audition. You have to go into each audition knowing it is a grind, knowing it is a crapshoot, and that even if you know teachers in the program that is only 1 piece in the puzzle, it is one of the first tastes of what it means to be a musician, you have to shrug that off, and simply go out, audition, and let the cards fall where they may. It is a brutal process with yes, more then a bit of unfairness in it, in the sense that getting in may require a certain amount of serendipity (for example, that the audition doesn’t happen when you are running a 102 degree fever, the panel isn’t in a cranky mood because they haven’t eaten lunch, the members on the panel happen to like the student’s style who is auditioning, the moon is in the 7th house, a slot opened up because a student quit to become a judge on American Idol, etc…), and the fact is whatever goes into auditions is as it is; I personally feel that the audition criteria itself is seriously skewed, but given that I am not on the faculty of the schools, not a muscian or music teacher, which means it means nothing:). Not saying people don’t have the right to feel nonplussed about aspects of getting in, one of the nice parts about a forum like this is we also can vent:)</p>

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<p>Thank you.</p>

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<p>@patientpoppa- and one year the process backfired at one of the schools that was represented on that panel and almost everyone offered entry into the freshman class accepted! The class was huge, necessitating some creative housing options! Now, as those kids are seniors, half of that incoming class is gone, for one reason or another, so it’s all still a crapshoot.
Great post, musicprnt!</p>