SAT Scores of URMS at Ivies

<p>oedipus said: "I would also like to point out that College's in no way lower their standards for admissions for URM."</p>

<p>If I'm hearing this right, then we can do away with affirmative action because colleges in no way use it. [insert sarcastic remark here]</p>

<p>I think we all know why affirmative action is fair, and we also know why affirmative action is unfair. Then we can have the conversation about how class based AA would make more sense than race based AA. </p>

<p>In answer to the OP, I think the information you are requesting is not available. </p>

<p>It is my own opinion that URM's with extremely high SAT scores in the 1500/1600 range are going to be accepted unless they have some red flag in their essays or recs. (Maybe they wrote their essay on affirmative action.) For non-hooked applicants with those SAT scores, the number of people stack up and it is a lottery. </p>

<p>Beyond that, I personally feel that hooked applicants have statistically lower SAT scores that skew the 50% SAT ranges so that unhooked applicants need to be around the 75% mark before the school is a match. For hooked applicants, I think that the school is a match if they are only around the 50% mark. However, there is a lot of unpredictability about how AA is implemented at a specific college, and so it is harder to predict, and anecdotes abound.</p>

<p>Regarding NCAA eligibility:</p>

<p>Someone playing Div 1 sports can have a 3.525 GPA and score 400 in each part of the SAT and be eligible.</p>

<p>Div II and three there are no threshsholds</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ncaa.org/library/general/cbsa/2004-05/2004-05_cbsa.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ncaa.org/library/general/cbsa/2004-05/2004-05_cbsa.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The overwhelming majority of athletes at the ivies and elite LACs are white.</p>

<p>Overall for blacks every one is stepping up their game. Being a URM is still going to be a hook, the pool of balck applicants are also becoming more competitive, with more choices given to those that bring the overall "A" game to the table. The old sterotype of getting into the ivies with a 1200 is no longer true.If you look up the stats at some of the ivies for the class of 2009 you will find that there were very few if any black admitted with 1200's.</p>

<p>From the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/100704_blackenrollment_yale.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/latest/100704_blackenrollment_yale.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>*Yale Tops the Ivy League in Black Freshman Enrollments: *</p>

<p>JBHE has completed its annual collection of data on black first-year enrollments at the eight Ivy League colleges and universities. Blacks make up 9.3 percent of the first-year students at Yale University this fall. This is the highest rate in the Ivy League and the highest rate at Yale in the past decade. A year ago, only 6.7 percent of the entering class at Yale was black. </p>

<p>Harvard University also had a good year in attracting black students. There are 145 black freshmen at Harvard this fall. They make up 8.9 percent of the first-year class. </p>

<p>At the University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, and Dartmouth College, blacks make up slightly more than 7 percent of the entering class. At Columbia University and Brown University, blacks are 6.8 percent of the freshman classes. </p>

<p>As has been the case for the past 13 years since JBHE began collecting statistics on black first-year enrollments in the Ivy League colleges, Cornell University has the smallest percentage of blacks in its entering class. This fall blacks are 4.7 percent of the freshman class at Cornell. </p>

<p>*Black Participation in Particular Advanced Placement Courses: *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/022405_advancedplacementcourses.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/latest/022405_advancedplacementcourses.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In 2004 more than 78,000 African-American students took Advanced Placement examinations. Blacks now make up 5 percent of all Advanced Placement test takers nationwide. For both blacks and whites, English literature, American history, English composition, and calculus were the most popular AP courses. Blacks were 6.9 percent of all students who took the AP test in French literature. This was the highest participation percentage for any of the 34 AP subject tests. Blacks were also at least 6 percent of all test takers in the subject areas of English literature, world history, macroeconomics, and French language. </p>

<p>The lowest level of black participation was on the Spanish literature test. Only 56 black students nationwide took the AP test in Spanish literature in 2004. They were only 0.6 percent of all test takers in this subject. Blacks were also less than 2 percent of all AP test takers in the subject areas of electrical and magnetic physics, Spanish language, computer science, and German. </p>

<p>*Black Applicants Surge at Harvard and Dartmouth: *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/021005_applicant_dartmouth-harvard.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/latest/021005_applicant_dartmouth-harvard.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard reported this past week that it received a total of 22,717 applications for the class that will enter this fall. The number of applicants rose by 15 percent from last year's total. Black applications for the freshman class increased at an even higher rate. Harvard reports that black applicants increased 28.3 percent from last year. A university spokesperson stated that the huge jump in applicants may be due to the new Harvard Financial Aid Initiative, which essentially eliminates out-of-pocket tuition and room and board expenses for students who come from families with incomes of less than $40,000 per year. </p>

<p>In the year after the Cornel West controversy, black enrollments dipped slightly at Harvard. Now it appears that Harvard has weathered that storm as well as last summer's controversy surrounding the denial of tenure to African-American studies professor Marcyliena Morgan. This denial of tenure caused Professor Morgan and her husband, Lawrence Bobo, the esteemed sociologist and member of the National Academy of Sciences, to take tenured teaching positions at Stanford. </p>

<p>At Dartmouth College, overall applications surged to their highest level in history. The admissions office reports that applications from "students of color" represented 25 percent of the total pool. Applications from blacks were at their highest level in the past four years. Good evidence that a frigid winter climate does not necessarily deter black applications to a college that is otherwise seen as receptive to black students.</p>

<p>Dufus3709, yes the ivies use AI but recruited athletes don't have to have nearly that high of an AI (plenty do though). If they want you 1200 will get you in; the rest needs to be decent but not to the level you say. There are ivy athletes with 1200 and outside of the top 10% I know some who fit that profile. Usually if you get 1200 on (old) SAT you are not going to get 800's on SAT IIs.</p>

<p>The AI is a cutoff for athletes at the ivies, as agreed to by all of the schools in the league. The information about the athletics in the NCAA from sybbie isn't about sports or acceptance policies for athletes in the ivies. </p>

<p>Some of the posts seem to be saying that athletes, legacies, and development cases have an advantage in admissions. Okay, I guess they do. The posts that say that URM's are not automatically accepted at the ivies are posts that I can agree with. I diagree with posts that say that URM's have only slight hooks or no hooks. (I would think that everyone involved with AA would hope that this statement is not true.)</p>

<p>As the first article from sybbie seems to indicate, I doubt if anyone is getting accepted to Harvard with SAT's in the 1200's anymore. However, I also think that someone who is not a URM, legacy, athlete, development case, VIP, or some very strong hook like an Olympic gold medal is dead without SAT's over 1500/1600.</p>

<p>The articles from sybbie opens other lines that I don't want to pursue. Why are there large numbers of black athletes in other sports leagues, but ivy athletes are largely white? If a larger percentage of URM's are AP test takers, what are the scores like? Why are acceptance rates for blacks still lower their their representation in society? Why is it a controversy if a black professor doesn't get tenure? Why would someone say: "Good evidence that a frigid winter climate does not necessarily deter black applications to a college that is otherwise seen as receptive to black students."???</p>

<p>Aren't you discouraging the very people who you want to apply by saying that there is no real URM hook? I can see that where it is satisfying to say that URM's are being accepted using the same standards as everyone else, but then you are telling URM's with SAT's in the 1300-1400 range just to forget it. Attempting to say that non-hooked applicants in that range are being accepted accepted is frankly ridiculous.</p>

<p>I think I see something happening where you tell a black student to apply to Harvard/Stanford with a 1200 SAT, and then tell them that they are being judged by the same standards as white applicants, and then prove it by using an anecdote about a white girl who got in with those scores (whose father gave the school $25 million and was Chairman of the Board for the college).</p>

<p>No one said that URMS with SATs in the 1300-1400 should just forget it. Heck, no one said that about nonURMs either.</p>

<p>What I've been saying is that it's not automatic that a URM with any score, including over 1500 on the old SAT or 2300 on the new one, will get into a place like an Ivy. Thus, such students should not assume that a place like Harvard or Williams is a safety or match. </p>

<p>The same is true for virtually anyone including students of all races who have 2400s and excellent grades. Probably the only ones who truly are shoo-ins are students with the minimal stats for admissions to such institutions and whose parents are billionaire donors. </p>

<p>Everyone else needs to consider colleges like HPYS as reach schools, no matter how outstanding they themselves appear to be. Those schools are flooded with outstanding applicants of all races.</p>

<p>Outstanding candidates of all races who also blow off the application or interview because they assume they are shoo-ins are shoo-ting themselves in the foot because it's very easy for the top colleges to reject such applicants. Interviews and the application aren't things to blow off.</p>

<p>Dufus, I'm a URM with a 2360 who has seen enough real life examples to know I'm no shoo in. There are so many factors. Working against me is an elite school and fairly affluent parents. With Harvard and others openly recruiting low income kids, you know what they really mean is low income minorities. Thyey may take a few poor whites from W. Virginia, but we know what they mean. That does not leave a lot of room for the well heeled URMs. It has become very competitive!</p>

<p>I think that UNhooked applicants with SATs in the 1300-1400 range should just forget it.</p>

<p>IMO a URM with a 1500 or 1550/1600 (and who doesn't write his essay about something inappropriate) has about the same chance of being admitted as a development case who is supplying over $10 million. </p>

<p>I don't know what "minimal stats for admissions" really means. To me, it is like saying that someone has the minimum stats to win the Tour de France. I think you mean the minimal indicator that they won't actually flunk out if accepted, but 99.9% of the applicants have that, and so I don't see how it could be used as an admissions criteria.</p>

<p>"Why are there large numbers of black athletes in other sports leagues, but ivy athletes are largely white? "</p>

<p>Possibly because the blacks at places like Ivies have higher grades and scores than do blacks at other types of institutions. They may get those grades/scores due to spending more time studying.</p>

<p>In addition, black football and basketball players serious about going into athletic careers, aren't likely to select Ivies because the Ivies aren't that competitive in those sports. For instance, no matter how great the Harvard football team is, it by choice doesn't do any post season play.</p>

<p>The sports that come to mind for being highly nationally competitive for Ivies are things like ice hockey and crew, not sports that many blacks pursue.</p>

<p>suze: I don't think you are a shoo in just because of your URM status, but your odds are very, significantly improved. If I would an adcom, I would see the 2360 and know that you were competitive among any group. I would look at your background, and probably say to myself that you were not too disadvantaged and that you may not deserve special consideration based on your race. However, I would also think about the Harvard administration and the Federal govt who are adding up the AA results, and the Harvard Black Alumni Club who keeps writing the articles. I would then admit you instead of several other non-URM applicants who are identically qualified as your are. No harm done, and I helped society.</p>

<p>I haven't felt in the thread so far that it was about well-heeled URM's, or athletes. I guess the white athletes at the ivies are studying just as hard as the black athletes. I think the reason might be that a NCAA college is willing to dip lower during admissions than the ivies are in admitting athletes.</p>

<p>It is really easy to subcribe to the notion that blacks are being admitted in high numbers at selective schools but it is another thing to know what those numbers actually flesh out to. Considering that black students are not applying to these schools no where near the number that there white and asioan counter parts are, one would be really hard pressed to find more than 100 black students entering an elite institution at any given time. </p>

<p>While it is true that Middlebury accepted 71% of the balck sutdents that applied, on 81 black students applied as compared to thousands of white students. Even then, of the 81 students who applied, 58 were admitted and 18 attended</p>

<p><a href="http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/FD32E8A7-F45B-493C-B388-E75DC9F35793/0/04cds_b.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/FD32E8A7-F45B-493C-B388-E75DC9F35793/0/04cds_b.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For the class of 08:
At williams 129 admitted and 56 attended</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/admin/provost/ir/2004-05cds.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/admin/provost/ir/2004-05cds.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.williamsrecord.com/wr/?sawContrib=yes&view=article&section=news&id=5537%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williamsrecord.com/wr/?sawContrib=yes&view=article&section=news&id=5537&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>At Swat
Out of an admitted class of 885 11% (97) students were black 25
attended</p>

<p><a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/cds2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/cds2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/news/releases/04/admit08.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.swarthmore.edu/news/releases/04/admit08.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>At Amherst</p>

<p>49 chose to attend
<a href="http://www.amherst.edu/about_amh/cds/2003/enrollment_and_persistence.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amherst.edu/about_amh/cds/2003/enrollment_and_persistence.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>At Dartmouth 79 black students</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/cds_200405_02.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/cds_200405_02.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>At Emory 139 (students)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.emory.edu/PROVOST/IPR/cds2003-04.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.emory.edu/PROVOST/IPR/cds2003-04.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton 86 blacks
<a href="http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yale 117 blacks</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Cornell - out of a freshman class of 3,054 students , 151 are black</p>

<p><a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard-of of 6562 enrolled students at the college, 499 are black students
<a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/Online_Harvard_Fact_Book_05.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/Online_Harvard_Fact_Book_05.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Stanford 139 black freshmen</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/home/statistics/#admission%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/home/statistics/#admission&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Dufus, let's hope the adcoms share your thinking!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dufus, I'm a URM with a 2360 who has seen enough real life examples to know I'm no shoo in. There are so many factors. Working against me is an elite school and fairly affluent parents. With Harvard and others openly recruiting low income kids, you know what they really mean is low income minorities. Thyey may take a few poor whites from W. Virginia, but we know what they mean. That does not leave a lot of room for the well heeled URMs. It has become very competitive!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How will Ivy adcoms know you come from an affluent background if the instituitions are indeed need-blind? Isn't the financial aid part of the application sent to a different department?</p>

<p>It will, for me and others, be very clear from the high school I attend, summer programs that are on my app, my ECs, interests alone often mark you as affluent (Hi, I ride horses and have travelled the world)...It's pretty easy to tell the difference between an inner city kid and an affluent URM.</p>

<p>Ok Oedipus is crazy. He claims that URMs don't get advantages, and his evidence is that the schools as a whole raised their GPA and SAT averages while admitting more URMs. Well DUH! All they had to do was to be tougher on the whites and Asians, and that is what happens. Since most of the class is non-URM, if they can raise the average scores of the white and Asian kids admitted by a little, then they can admit more low scoring URMs and still save the average. Though race-based data is hard to come by, most schools are willing to admit, on a basic level, that it is easier to get in if you are a URM. It's not a guarantee, but ALL the stats available tell us that the URMs attending the top schools, have, on average, lower SAT scores than the whites and Asians.</p>

<p>You know it may be true that URMs get an advantage in college admissions, which is evident in numerous documents, and such, but in all seriousness...they got in for a reason or another. You can say that Asians of White people have better SAT averages, or are "better qualified," but the fact remains, something made them stick out - - - all the people that got in had something that they could offer to the school. I don't think it is safe to say that just because they don't have stellar scores and stats, and they are a URM, that suddenly they're the worst student on the planet. They are qualified, or else they wouldn't be able to graduate from the college.</p>

<p>I think some people on the thread are sick of hearing that URM's get free rides during admissions and that anybody with a 1200 on the SAT's is definitely in. This is obviously not true. The truth is in the middle and it is can be emotionally charged in how you say it.</p>

<p>They can tell your background from your zip code.</p>

<p>"but in all seriousness...they got in for a reason or another"</p>

<p>Of course they got in for a reason. Unfortunately that reason is how dark their skin is.</p>

<p>"something made them stick out - - - all the people that got in had something that they could offer to the school"</p>

<p>Yes, they stick out to the adcom. BECAUSE THEY ARE MINORITIES. What could they offer? O yeah, they are minorities, that is what they offer. Do they offer something that a better white or Asian kid couldn't? Almost all of the time, the answer is no. </p>

<p>"I don't think it is safe to say that just because they don't have stellar scores and stats, and they are a URM, that suddenly they're the worst student on the planet."</p>

<p>No one EVER said that did they? Did I? No. I hate it when people put words in my mouth to make me out to be some kind of racist or something. Straw men, glucose, straw men.</p>

<p>"They are qualified, or else they wouldn't be able to graduate from the college."</p>

<p>Yes, at the top colleges, they are qualified. Just not as qualified as others who were rejected and didn't share their minority status. But actually, not being qualified is a problem. At some schools, most of them lower tier, the URMs they admit can't keep up with the work. They DON'T graduate in as high percentages as whites and Asians. See this is the part about AA that hurts the URMs. If you are a URM that gets into, say UIUC or Wisconsin instead of Wisconsin-Whitewater or Northern Illinois, and you flunk out, how was AA helping you by admitting you to a school where you couldn't pass as opposed to the slightly lower school where they could have earned a degree?</p>

<p>And to dufus: Did anyone say that URMs with 1200s get free rides in admissions? I don't think so, but nonetheless, your point is taken that nothing is guaranteed. The sheer number of applicants ensures that not every URM is going to get in, we all know that.</p>

<p>"All they had to do was to be tougher on the whites and Asians" </p>

<p>That sounds a little racist to me...but that is just me. Maybe they aren't tough enough on Asians and Whites, that is just me though.</p>

<p>Wow!!! How the h e double hockey sticks is that racist? It is easily backed up by the facts. It is the logical conclusion that they have to be harder on the non-URMs, because while it is possible for URM average scores to go up, the fact that the school admitted more necesitates making up for it somewhere, as the URM scores are still lower than the nonURMs, and now that there are more URMs, they need to balance wiht higher scores from nonURMS, which are whites and Asians. Hence the adcoms must be more selective among whites and Asians. Facts are never racist, glucose, never.</p>