<p>if the OP is still interested in the SAT scores of URM at top schools, some info is in the book "America in Black and White: One Nation, Indivisible" by Thernstrom.</p>
<p>Drummerdude, I don't know where your applying, but I have a hard time believing any top school won't get a whiff of your ignorance in the application process.</p>
<p>Ooooooooooooooooo, ignorance, huh? Wanna debate suze? wanna cite some facts? I love how I and others turn every post into a debate, but no one ever debates me, they just make snide comments and personal assaults that degrade from their position more than anything. I respect you suze, now cowboy up and please, i beg of you, tell me why I am wrong.</p>
<p>I actually enjoy when people call me ignorant, arrogant, racist, etc. Because those people are often those that called Bush arrogant, stubborn, racist, etc. And I love to tell people "If Bush is so stupid, how dumb do you have to be to be consistently beaten by him?". (/totally random tangent, sorry guys)</p>
<p>I want to debate you. I don't think I have to cite facts to debate you either. Sure, facts can be racist. The thing with facts are that you can pretty much find whatever you want, in your favor. It's called manipulating facts. I think drummerdude is ignorant, why? Because he thinks that URMs are getting in because of their skin, which is NOT the truth. If you think they are...which you do, in my book you are ignorant.</p>
<p>The debate has been done to death drummerdude, yet people like you persist in thinking they would be at Harvard if only some black or latino had not unfairly taken their spot. As an affluent URM from a highly educated family, I'll be the first to say that an inner city URM deserves a place before I do if they have accomplishments even close.</p>
<p>You're unfortunately not worth debating as your position is an age old racist one. I was just being honest. It's my belief that people like you don't get into top colleges. Through something you say in your application, a club you joined, a volunteer activity or a teacher rec, they will see who you are. May just be my pipe dream but one has to hope!</p>
<p>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I get it glucose, I'm sorry. I'm ignorant because I don't agree with you. Oic, my bad, i guess i was ignorant. Sorry. Facts, logic, who needs 'em? Manipulating facts? O yes, there is a lot of that around. But can you explain how I manipulated facts. Logic and manipulation aren't often the same thing.</p>
<p>"Because he thinks that URMs are getting in because of their skin, which is NOT the truth."</p>
<p>Isn't it? Tell me why not. Tell me why the average scores and GPAs of people with black or brown skin are lower than those who have white skin? I'm not insinuating that whites and Asians are better, for goodness sakes I am not in the friggin KKK here, I am just citing facts. Facts that your only defense against is that they are somehow racist and manipulated. What is racist about that? How is it manipulated? can no one give me an answer?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, at the top colleges, they are qualified. Just not as qualified as others who were rejected and didn't share their minority status. But actually, not being qualified is a problem.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What exactly constitutes being not as qualified? Are you simply talking about scores, becasue that is one criteria but certainly not the only. It is true that after you take into consideration, athletes, legacies, developmental admits, celebrities and/or their offspring, URMs, low income, and those that can full pay, there are very "few slots" slots remaining. </p>
<p>We tend to forget that what ever your thoughts are that nothing trumps the institutional mission, and as long as the college beleives that a variety of students from different walks of life is beneficial to helping them to achieve that mission I guess it is always going to be easier to hate the players than to hate the game.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At some schools, most of them lower tier, the URMs they admit can't keep up with the work. They DON'T graduate in as high percentages as whites and Asians.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>According to the Journal on Blacks in Higher Education:</p>
<p>Nearly 19 out of every 20 black students who enter the highly competitive academic environment of Harvard, Princeton, Haverford, and Amherst go on to earn their diplomas. Other academically demanding colleges do very well, although not as well as these four. </p>
<p>Sixteen other highly competitive colleges and universities turn in black student graduation rates of 85 percent or more. They are Wellesley College, Williams College, Brown University, Davidson College, Colgate University, Duke University, Northwestern University, Swarthmore College, Wesleyan University, Yale University, Georgetown University, Stanford University, Washington University, Dartmouth College, Columbia University, and the University of Virginia</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you are a URM that gets into, say UIUC or Wisconsin instead of Wisconsin-Whitewater or Northern Illinois, and you flunk out, how was AA helping you by admitting you to a school where you couldn't pass as opposed to the slightly lower school where they could have earned a degree?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Since one of the missions at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is to</p>
<p>Increase the six-year graduation rate of undergraduates to 60 percent. While the latest graduation figures were at 52 percent the UW System average they increased five percentage points in three years thanks to new programs and interventions in advising and student affairs. Grade: B.
<a href="http://www.uww.edu/npa/news_releases/story.php?id=380%5B/url%5D">http://www.uww.edu/npa/news_releases/story.php?id=380</a></p>
<p>Since according to their own common data set </p>
<p>There are a total of 413 black students, 242 asian students and 8513 white students, one could conclude that there are a whole lot more white students not graduating.</p>
<p>Even in the first year class which consists of 142 blacks(8%), and 62 (3.5%) asians and1487 whites out of a total of 1762 students. Say using your analogy that the majority of them flunk out, what constitutes the majority ? Lets say that all of them flunk out (even though we know that this is not trueas some most likely do graduate)</p>
<p>1762-142 =1620 </p>
<p>Out of those 1620 students 32% don't graduate (518) isn't it safe to say that a large number are whites?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Though race-based data is hard to come by, most schools are willing to admit, on a basic level, that it is easier to get in if you are a URM.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which schools state this, please back up this statement with facts.</p>
<p>Does this mean that I should tell my daughter whose SAT scores were in the to 75% range, had a 4.0 gpa along with the "As" she recieved in college courses, from Columbia, Barnard and NYU that it meant nothing because in the end all that matter is that she got in because she was black. I graduated from Cornell with a 3.87 gpa, does this mean that I am not worthy of their degree or should all those that had a lower gpa than mine were not qualified?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Because he thinks that URMs are getting in because of their skin, which is NOT the truth
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you have two equally qualified, equally wealthy applicants, from the same school, and one's white and one's black, who's going to get in?</p>
<p>The black one.</p>
<p>And why?</p>
<p>Skin color.</p>
<p>Owned!!!!!</p>
<p>Let's take it one more step semiserious, and why?</p>
<p>Suze, suze, suze, you still don't get it.</p>
<p>"yet people like you persist in thinking they would be at Harvard if only some black or latino had not unfairly taken their spot"</p>
<p>Hmm that's about the fifth time people insert words into my mouth. Nope, suze, never said that, and honestly, never thought that. At this point, I don't think I have the stats for Harvard, and maybe I don't deserve to go there, I am just making the point that a URM with my stats doesn't deserve to go there either.</p>
<p>"You're unfortunately not worth debating as your position is an age old racist one."</p>
<p>I'm totally astounded. I cannot believe all of you people's TOTAL, and I mena TOTAL disregard for simple logic and proven data. My goodness, your whole argument consists of one sentence: That doesn't matter because you are a racist. I fell so silly right now. I haven't heard a good argument against me yet (and up till now, I pretty much assumed that there were some good arguments against me). You really think that position is racist? I mean, my position is that we should treat everyone equally, yours is that certain groups should be given favors, and you are calling me racist? I'm stunned. Stunned that you poeple, with sky high SATs, many from elite schools, some who are already in those top colleges, can't defend your positions worth a hoot! Are liberals like you going to be teaching my college courses? Because if you are, then screw Harvard, I would reject the offer even if I got in.</p>
<p>O, and by the way, was Frederick Douglas racist? He despised AA type policies even before they were invented. Is Thomas Sowell a racist? Can blacks and Hispanics be racist against themsleves? That is, after all, part of what you are arguing.</p>
<p>"It's my belief that people like you don't get into top colleges."</p>
<p>Is it? Good for you suze. Do you belong to any adcoms right now? If, by chance, I do get into a top college, what are you going to say then? O and by the way, even if I don't get into Harvard or whatever school, does that disqualify my argument?</p>
<p>"Through something you say in your application, a club you joined, a volunteer activity or a teacher rec, they will see who you are. May just be my pipe dream but one has to hope!"</p>
<p>You think I joined my local chapter of the racist club or something? Actually I might have a few ultra-lib teachers not unlike yourself that might say something about me being racist, but I am not about to let them rwrite my rec now am I? And O MY GOODNESS how can a VOLUNTEER ACTIVITY lead them to see my 'ignorance'. Is it because I am Republican? Does that make me ignorant?</p>
<p>Look suze whatever my problems, it doesn't change the fact that no one here has yet bested me in an AA argument.</p>
<p>You can set up these hypothetical situations all day...but there is NEVER going to be one person like you ever in the world. It isn't test scores, if you ask me, if anything that seperates one canidate from another. It is their character. For all we know, the black person could be Mother Theresa-like, and the white person could be conniving to reach the same stats...if we're being hypothetical.</p>
<p>Thank you, semiserious and Bananas. I was about to go insane.</p>
<p>Why, suze? Well, here we go.</p>
<p>The idea is that black people have been treated unfairly in history, and therefore are poorer than whites, and cannot afford the kinds of advantages whites can (overall, this is true--and let's ignore for a second that Affirmitive Action does NOTHING to remedy this problem). So in order to even the scales, we need to give them a leg up in admissions. However, assuming that the school I mentioned is a top private, and the wealth I mentioned is ample, I sincerely doubt that this black person really needs the leg up that is intended to poor and underpriviledged minorities. The school that admitted is probably not even thinking about giving this minority a "leg up". They are probably thinking about increasing the "diversity" of their class, because obviously diversity only comes from people of different races, because every two white people and every two black people are exactly the same.</p>
<p>Admitting the black student is a misguided attempt but a bunch of white people to assuage their white man's guilt about enslaving his ancestors 200 years ago. Oh wait, this black kid probably didn't even have enslaved ancestors. He's probably a 2nd generation immigrant (there was a post about this a few days ago).</p>
<p>Drummer, you don't have to join the KKK to show your stripes. A level playing field would be great had there been anything close throughout history.</p>
<p>I agree with semiserious, bananas, and drummerdude_07.</p>
<p>I don't have stats to back this up, but I don't think the adcoms think they're giving URMs an advantage in the admissions process. I just think that the adcoms see URMs as an advantage for the university, making them more desirable. Get what I'm trying to say? So from our perspective as applicants, a URM status is an advantage for us, right?</p>
<p>"...but there is NEVER going to be one person like you ever in the world"</p>
<p>There's not? I'm not a person? Well then dang you just out-argued by an inanimate object or something. </p>
<p>"You can set up these hypothetical situations all day"</p>
<p>True, I am a fan of hypothetical situations, except that in this case the situation has nothing hypothetical about it.</p>
<p>"It isn't test scores, if you ask me, if anything that seperates one canidate from another."</p>
<p>Very true, the best thing you've said all day. Except in this case you are arguing that the thing that seperates one candidate form another isn;t test scores, it's skin color. Wait, who's racist?</p>
<p>"For all we know, the black person could be Mother Theresa-like, and the white person could be conniving to reach the same stats...if we're being hypothetical."</p>
<p>You continue to call me racist? But is the black person Mother Theresa? We have no evidence to really compare the ECs, essays, and such of URMs versus non URMs. But we can compare test scores and GPA, and sometimes class rank areas. But I also believe it is safe to assume that not all the blacks with low scores are the 'mother theresas' you mention that they should be to beat the white kid with better stats. Therefore my 'situations' are based on known facts, while yours are desperate attempts to rationalize the lies you hide behind, and are incredibly improbable to the point of being useless.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Does this mean that I should tell my daughter whose SAT scores were in the to 75% range, had a 4.0 gpa along with the "As" she recieved in college courses, from Columbia, Barnard and NYU that it meant nothing because in the end all that matter is that she got in because she was black. I graduated from Cornell with a 3.87 gpa, does this mean that I am not worthy of their degree or should all those that had a lower gpa than mine were not qualified?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Of course there are minorities who are qualified, more qualified than white kids. It seems to me that YOU of all people should be against AA. You deserve that spot and because of AA people will always doubt that--because the truth is that even though you were certainly qualfied, you could have had SAT scores 100 points lower and a GPA .5 points lower and still have had a better shot than many more qualified whites.</p>
<p>I can break down everything you say and refute it also.</p>
<p>"We have no evidence to really compare the ECs, essays, and such of URMs versus non URMs." You proved my point, thank you.</p>
<p>"many more qualified whites" You know, it really depends on what you mean by qualified. To me, qualified isn't having a good SAT score.</p>