Saturday school music programs in high school

<p>I am a 15 year old rising junior (soprano) that certainly wants to study vocal performance in college. I attended two opera focused summer programs this summer, and I learned a lot about both my strengths and weaknesses. Most of the kids that I met attended performing arts schools, or programs where they take classes in music theory, history, etc. I feel like I am rather behind and unprepared in this area. I attend a regular public school because there are no arts schools in my area. I have a couple interviews set up with potential piano teachers (I studied for about two or three years when I was very young, but can only play at a very basic level). </p>

<p>Here is my question - There is one program in the area that offers a saturday music program. I would attend classes every saturday in theory, ear training, music history, and college/performance preparation. They say they design their program after Juilliard pre-college, however, you continue study with your own private teacher, and there is no choral/instrumental portion for most students. The school includes exams and juries twice a year. I feel like this is a great opportunity for me to learn, and it may increase my competitiveness in the audition process. My parents are hesitant because they think it will keep me from doing other activities on Saturdays. I feel like it would be worth the sacrifice for the education and experience. I have to register by the end of the month. My voice teacher doesn't have experience with the program, but he thinks it would be worth a try, and a good experience for me. They have been in operation for a while, and they advertise sending students to great music schools. I was wondering about other opinions on programs like these. I know that these kinds of programs are more popular on the east coast. Do any of you have family experience with things like this, and do you think it would be worth my time and money if I am positive that I want to study music, and I have a serious interest in the subject? </p>

<p>Thanks! Sorry for being so wordy, as always :)</p>

<p>While I’m sure that the program would enhance your preparation for post-secondary music study, I do not think that it is essential. For gaining college admittance/merit aid, having the best possible private teacher is essential; making sacrifices to study with such a teacher are well worth it. Ideally that teacher should regularly have students that go on to study voice at good schools and should offer performance opportunities as part of their studio (whether regular studio classes or recitals). </p>

<p>The study of music theory, ear training, and music history will have very little or no bearing on your chances of admission at most good music schools. Such study while in high school will, of course, make your college study of such subjects much easier. </p>

<p>I would recommend that you have part of your piano lesson devoted to music theory
and ear training (music history can really wait until college). Perhaps, 30 minutes of the lesson could be devoted to piano, 15 minutes to ear training, and 15 minutes to theory (with weekly assignments in ear and theory). So if you choose not to do the Saturday school, then I think it is important that your piano teacher be one that is comfortable teaching music theory and doing ear training.</p>

<p>It will sacrifice other things you could be doing with your Saturdays, but you could also build a great support network of similarly music-minded friends who share you interests. Can you talk to someone who’s already involved (if you call the place that sponsors it, they can set up a connection)? D3 participated in a program like this and found the juries to be helpful - gets you used to the stress of auditions/juries and the comments were constructive/supportive. Also might be a good way to pave the way to some ensemble connections with other students at your level.</p>

<p>This is a “six of one, a half a dozen of the other” situation and while I respect stradmom’s advice, I come in with violindad on this one. Certainly, the “jury” practice is useful and the theory classes are great, but this is not an essential program for a singer, nor do I honestly believe that it will give you an “edge” when it comes to applying to college. Kids do just fine in their first year juries without any previous experience and as a singer, you’ll be used to getting up there in front of a panel and performing anyway ( at least you will be by the time audition season is over!). There are no vocal ensembles offered, which is a good and a bad thing since they can be fun and a good learning experience but those with “Bigger” voices don’t blend well and choral work is something to be avoided if it causes one to “hold back” in order to make one’s voice fit.
You intend to pick up piano anyway, which is a great thing to do, and you should try to structure your lesson as violindad suggested. Actually, this is precisely what my D did, and it worked just fine for her. The program would really only fit into your schedule this year, since, as a senior, you’re going to be out auditioning, so I think your time and your parent’s $$ are better spent on getting going with a good piano teacher and working with the best voice teacher you can find. Should that mean switching teachers, by all means do it as soon as possible, since you will need to work on technique and audition rep…You may find that your voice teacher can also be the one to work with you on theory, sight singing ( important, even though you may dislike it and not think it necessary now!), dictation, etc.
Good luck!</p>

<p>Without knowing the program (which probably would not help because a)I probably don’t know much about it and b)in terms of vocal music, I know even less).</p>

<p>That said, I’ll take another viewpoint on potentially going there to think about. Do you absolutely need to go to said program to make it into a program in college, or will it necessarily make a big difference, assuming you have a high level teacher? My answer is no, with some caveats I’ll explain below, likewise while knowing music theory, history and especially solfege is valuable (especially solfege), it isn’t a ‘must have’ either. </p>

<p>So if it isn’t absolutely required, why would you want to give up a Saturday to do this, ‘giving up’ other things? If the program is decent, then my answer would be is it is kind of a test for you, so to speak, of what a music program in college is like (I am not claiming it is the same thing,or as rigorous, or even that much of a taste). From everything I have seen and heard, being a performance major in music requires a kind of focus, it requires a lot of work, and desire, and yes, sacrifice, to do it (word of caution, not knowing much about voice, I can’t claim to be an expert on it, but I would be surprised if voice students had it easier then instrumentalists or whatever). You live, breath, eat music in a sense there…</p>

<p>Saturday programs like that are a taste of that, the day is dedicated to music, and it requires giving up things you would do on a saturday, like catch up on sleep, homework, texting, or listening to recordings of 15th century Mongolian sheep herding songs…it may help give you an idea if you want to go down the road and take on music, if being immersed in it is for you. The other thing it might do is have you around other music students and finding kids like yourself, and that cannot IMO be dismissed lightly. My child was musically strong, involved in music in many ways, but when they got into such a program it made a big, big difference not only how they played, but viewed music. They got to see kids who were really into it, the very high level of the program, and more importantly, found other kids who shared the same views and passions about music and it helped our child see what they wanted to do (likewise, there are kids who get into programs like this and say “it is fun, but I don’t want to do this in my life going down the road”, which is fine as well. </p>

<p>As far as doing this senior year, with auditions, with all due respect, kids who go to NEC, Juilliard,CIM and so forth pre college do so until they graduate, and many of them audition for high level music programs, and do so while maintaining rigorous academic schedules, and these kids are dead serious about getting into high level music programs, if it was such a distraction from auditions, I would expect they would drop out of the program senior year, but very few do. </p>

<p>I would encourage you to find out more about the program, see if anyone has written anything, but if your folks can afford it and it seems to be a decent program, it could help you in ways that would even go beyond singing better or being ready for an audition, could help you make the committment (or not) towards seriously pursuing music.</p>

<p>I can’t recommend this experience highly enough, honestly. Our daughter is a composer so I don’t know that much about vocal preparation, but most of the students in her Saturday conservatory prep program were instrumentalists or vocalists. </p>

<p>She only did the Sat. program for junior and senior year, and I wish she had started earlier. It was a financial challenge for us, but I actually think it paid off in scholarships.</p>

<p>Auditions were not a problem with the program running Sat.'s in senior year. Teachers understood that there would be absences in late Feb. and early March. All the kids in her classes seemed to do very well w/conservatory or college admissions, as well.</p>

<p>If you love music, these types of classes are a pleasure. In this day and age, when technical prowess is such a priority, I also think it is wonderful for future musicians of all types to get a “holistic” feel for music: history and theory/solfege help with that, and being around other students who are also giving their Saturdays can be inspiring.</p>

<p>That said, if your interests are more varied, then, in these last two years of high school, before you commit to specializing in music, an argument can be made to do other things on Saturdays. So, it is really up to you!</p>

<p>Thanks for replies so far! On one hand, I feel like I could work on theory and ear training at home, and with my voice and piano teachers to save time and money, but I also think I would benefit from being in the musical environment that the school would provide. Right now I take voice right in the middle of the day on Saturday, and I always form my schedule around it, but I will probably change to weekdays once I get my license next month. I have a great voice teacher - everyone that I have worked with this summer says that they can tell that I have a great teacher. I’ve worked with a few other people, and I work with him the best out of everyone I’ve worked with, so I don’t see a need for a teacher switch. He’s been teaching for a couple decades now, and has sent students to great schools in the past (Juilliard, Eastman, Boco, I know for sure) but he doesn’t have a lot of high school aged students, so I’ll need to find more guidance in the college search area. </p>

<p>I guess I’m getting freaked out after having a few friends enroll in Walnut Hill/Interlochen and conservatory precollege programs, and most of my other summer friends going to arts schools at home. What I’ve been told over and over this summer is that “as a soprano, you need to work really hard on your musicianship skills to stand apart. Read well. Know theory, appreciate all music, pick up an instrument” I have a few theory workbooks and ear training CDs at home, I’m starting piano, and I’ve been a dedicated voice student. I absolutely can’t imagine being happy doing anything else, and I can’t wait for when I’ll be able to study what I love all the time. I just don’t want to pass up any opportunities that will help me get in to the schools of my choice. It’s sounds like while the program would be nice to be a part of, I could learn the things I really want to learn at a lesser cost with my other teachers…</p>

<p>I don’t think you can duplicate the experience of studying theory and history, with self-study at home. Things like solfege and dictation would be hard to do for yourself, though perhaps others can chime in with a different opinion.</p>

<p>Piano teachers can expose you to a lot, and some teachers have gotten really good at integrating piano and theory, give students CD’s to expose them to new musical influences, and so on. But a program is organized in a way that gives a well-rounded coverage of subjects, with an orderly sequence that you can follow for a couple of years.</p>

<p>We found that Saturday conservatory prep classes offered a lot that a Walnut Hill or Interlochen would.</p>

<p>You started out being in favor of doing this, and it seemed like the obstacle was that your parents felt you should still be exploring other interests on Saturdays. At this point, only you know if you want to focus in on music in your last two years of high schoo, and how you want to do itl.</p>

<p>My kids tried everything in 9th and 10th grades, and the musician in the family seemed to be headed for theater or writing, until she was your age. Then it was full speed ahead. I think by junior year specializing is fine, even wonderful, it if is a “passion.” Do your parents feel this way, or does it scare them?</p>

<p>Also, doing the Sat. program is a good way to test out your commitment, and see what college/conservatory classes might be like.</p>

<p>Another one of my kids focused on a performing art in junior year, to the point of being semi-professional in senior year. You’d think that would have led to more involvement in that art, but she found she did not like the life, and is following a different path now, one which still includes the art but is much broader. She is at a college, not a conservatory, which was also a change in plans.</p>

<p>I agree with compmom in what she wrote, based on my own observations with my son I don’t think working on things like theory and solfege at home would work as well as in a program, a lot of the value of these programs is in how they are taught as what they they are thinking. </p>

<p>Want an example of what I am talking about? My son has perfect pitch, which despite claims to the contrary, actually can be and is detrimental at times to studying music (works great learning by ear, I’ll grant you…but that is not a major part of traditional music study). In solfege, where you are learning to identify intervals, to figure out what a diminished 7th off some base tone is, someone with perfect pitch can kind of cheat…when the whole purpose of solfege is to learn about relative pitch which is critical in music (least from what I understand of it, I am not a musician). If my son tried doing solfege from a disk or some home study program, he could use his perfect pitch sense to work out the problem…at his saturday program, when they figure out a kid has perfect pitch, they give them problems that are difficult to resolve using PP, and also make them do it quickly enough that PP+ working it out logically won’t work… </p>

<p>The other thing is while piano teachers and voice teachers obviously have had training in theory and voice, it doesn’t mean they will be effective at teaching it, and quite frankly, taking time away from your main voice lessons to do that seems to me to be working against what you need to do. There are exceptions, my son took piano when he was pretty young for a while and his piano teacher taught him a lot of theory, but the man was a retired music professor who had been chair of the department of music at a local university, so he had taught theory and so forth for a long time. I can’t speak of the program you are talking about, but I would guess that the people teaching solfege and theory and such are people who routinely do it, and I can’t see how what they teach wouldn’t be as good or better then what you would get from a teacher whose primary focus is not teaching those things…I also reiterate in agreeing with compmom that being around other musical kids can make a big, big difference, it can give you the idea of what it is like to be in the world and it can inspire you to do better and better.</p>

<p>In the program my son is in he is solidly somewhere in the middle of the pack in terms of his ability and he is surrounded by kids who remind him that as strong as he has gotten, they are more advanced, have things they can do incredibly well he isn’t as good at, and it gives him concrete examples of why he needs to work hard and really helps drive him to do what he does. A teacher can tell you you need to work hard, but especially if you have done very well already, if people are telling you how good you are (including, perhaps, your own teachers), it can be hard to really know what is out there until you see it and experience it as colleagues with other music students. People often talk about how great the kids are on programs like “From the Top”, or how great some kid is who is all state, etc, but when you get exposed to it you realize that even if you measure up to kids like that, there are plenty of them out there even better who you don’t see…whereas in a music program you very well could be exposed to kids at that level. </p>

<p>Obviously, none of us can talk to your specific situation, since we know neither yourself or the program in question, we are talking from our own experience. Neither of us is saying that if you don’t do a program or a summer festival or whatever that you won’t be able to pursue music, anyone who says that is misguided, what I am saying and what I believe compmom is saying is that a Saturday pre college program can help you in a lot of ways you wouldn’t have without going there; obviously, having a first rate teacher is critically important, but there are elements outside that that can make your path more clear, help towards that goal. It isn’t even about learning theory or doing solfege, it is kind of a complete package of being immersed in music that I believe helps the student a)figure out if they really want to go into music and b)see what it really takes, get inspiration, whatever. </p>

<p>By all means, one thing I would recommend is to try and find out what others who went there have said about the program, especially music students who have gone on to study music and even better, enter the field of music. Did it help them? Was the program worth it, or just another program collecting tuition? Saying ‘the program is based on Juilliard’s pre college program’ doesn’t mean much in of itself, it could be a relatively low level program that happens to use the format of Julliard’s program, or use the same books or whatever…like summer festivals, these kind of programs can be everything from a community music program (nothing wrong with that) level, to somewhere way up there on the level of Juilliard. To give you an idea, my son took theory as part of a music program he was in before he went to his current program, and they proudly proclaimed it used the ABRSM curricula and was ‘as good as any pre college program’…while my son in fact learned in the program, he said that there was no comparison, that he learned more in 4 weeks in this program then he did in a year at his old one and that much of his learning there he kind of picked up on his own through reading and asking the teacher questions…</p>

<p>And I understand about the extra cost, those programs are not cheap, as I well know. However, if it helps you focus on what you do or don’t want to do, it could end up saving you money and time down the road. If you go and decide music isn’t for you, you are saving yourself from making that decision later on, after you go to college; and if it helps you find you really love it, and spurs you to work harder, you might end up in a much better program and have the basis to do better then you would have. In the end, it is about what the perceived value of the program is versus the real cost in time and money. And obviously, make the decision based on perceived value to yourself, if you choose not to do it you probably would do well if you love music.</p>

<p>I agree with compmom in what she wrote, based on my own observations with my son I don’t think working on things like theory and solfege at home would work as well as in a program, a lot of the value of these programs is in how they are taught as what they they are thinking. </p>

<p>Want an example of what I am talking about? My son has perfect pitch, which despite claims to the contrary, actually can be and is detrimental at times to studying music (works great learning by ear, I’ll grant you…but that is not a major part of traditional music study). In solfege, where you are learning to identify intervals, to figure out what a diminished 7th off some base tone is, someone with perfect pitch can kind of cheat…when the whole purpose of solfege is to learn about relative pitch which is critical in music (least from what I understand of it, I am not a musician). If my son tried doing solfege from a disk or some home study program, he could use his perfect pitch sense to work out the problem…at his saturday program, when they figure out a kid has perfect pitch, they give them problems that are difficult to resolve using PP, and also make them do it quickly enough that PP+ working it out logically won’t work… </p>

<p>The other thing is while piano teachers and voice teachers obviously have had training in theory and voice, it doesn’t mean they will be effective at teaching it, and quite frankly, taking time away from your main voice lessons to do that seems to me to be working against what you need to do. There are exceptions, my son took piano when he was pretty young for a while and his piano teacher taught him a lot of theory, but the man was a retired music professor who had been chair of the department of music at a local university, so he had taught theory and so forth for a long time. I can’t speak of the program you are talking about, but I would guess that the people teaching solfege and theory and such are people who routinely do it, and I can’t see how what they teach wouldn’t be as good or better then what you would get from a teacher whose primary focus is not teaching those things…I also reiterate in agreeing with compmom that being around other musical kids can make a big, big difference, it can give you the idea of what it is like to be in the world and it can inspire you to do better and better.</p>

<p>In the program my son is in he is solidly somewhere in the middle of the pack in terms of his ability and he is surrounded by kids who remind him that as strong as he has gotten, they are more advanced, have things they can do incredibly well he isn’t as good at, and it gives him concrete examples of why he needs to work hard and really helps drive him to do what he does. A teacher can tell you you need to work hard, but especially if you have done very well already, if people are telling you how good you are (including, perhaps, your own teachers), it can be hard to really know what is out there until you see it and experience it as colleagues with other music students. People often talk about how great the kids are on programs like “From the Top”, or how great some kid is who is all state, etc, but when you get exposed to it you realize that even if you measure up to kids like that, there are plenty of them out there even better who you don’t see…whereas in a music program you very well could be exposed to kids at that level. </p>

<p>Obviously, none of us can talk to your specific situation, since we know neither yourself or the program in question, we are talking from our own experience. Neither of us is saying that if you don’t do a program or a summer festival or whatever that you won’t be able to pursue music, anyone who says that is misguided, what I am saying and what I believe compmom is saying is that a Saturday pre college program can help you in a lot of ways you wouldn’t have without going there; obviously, having a first rate teacher is critically important, but there are elements outside that that can make your path more clear, help towards that goal. It isn’t even about learning theory or doing solfege, it is kind of a complete package of being immersed in music that I believe helps the student a)figure out if they really want to go into music and b)see what it really takes, get inspiration, whatever. </p>

<p>By all means, one thing I would recommend is to try and find out what others who went there have said about the program, especially music students who have gone on to study music and even better, enter the field of music. Did it help them? Was the program worth it, or just another program collecting tuition? Saying ‘the program is based on Juilliard’s pre college program’ doesn’t mean much in of itself, it could be a relatively low level program that happens to use the format of Julliard’s program, or use the same books or whatever…like summer festivals, these kind of programs can be everything from a community music program (nothing wrong with that) level, to somewhere way up there on the level of Juilliard. To give you an idea, my son took theory as part of a music program he was in before he went to his current program, and they proudly proclaimed it used the ABRSM curricula and was ‘as good as any pre college program’…while my son in fact learned in the program, he said that there was no comparison, that he learned more in 4 weeks in this program then he did in a year at his old one and that much of his learning there he kind of picked up on his own through reading and asking the teacher questions…</p>

<p>And I understand about the extra cost, those programs are not cheap, as I well know. However, if it helps you focus on what you do or don’t want to do, it could end up saving you money and time down the road. If you go and decide music isn’t for you, you are saving yourself from making that decision later on, after you go to college; and if it helps you find you really love it, and spurs you to work harder, you might end up in a much better program and have the basis to do better then you would have. In the end, it is about what the perceived value of the program is versus the real cost in time and money. And obviously, make the decision based on perceived value to yourself, if you choose not to do it you probably would do well if you love music.</p>

<p>I think that the average length of post in this thread just set a record (excluding this one)!</p>

<p>This is an old thread, but I think I will reply for those who are searching for information about pre college programs. Our son plays piano and his pre college program, which he began when he was 13 has been an essential ingredient in his growth. We stumbled on the program because my husband wanted him to have a chance to play with others and this program looked pretty good. He was with a mediocre teacher at the time, but they recognized that he was musically talented and allowed him to play with an ensemble and dropped hints about how he might need a higher level teacher is he was serious about his playing. It was through the program that he realized that he wanted to go seriously into music as a career. Now he is with a top level teacher in our metropolitan area and starting to win competitions and looking to attend a top level music college in a few years. This would never have happened without the pre college program. He absolutely loves going there on his Saturdays, but a couple times a year he misses for another activity and they are understanding about that. He loves being around other kids who love classical music, none of the other kids he knows care about it at all. He loves playing with the string players in ensembles and sonata literature class. The teachers are all truly dedicated to helping the students (most of them have masters and a couple DMA’s so this is something to look for in a program). </p>

<p>I don’t think our Academy is nearly as useful for voice as for instrumentalists, most of the voice is for instrumentalists who do a little singing on the side, so voice students would need to find an academy really geared for voice students.</p>

<p>I also realize this is an old thread, revived.</p>

<p>I wonder whether this question parses differently for instrumentalists. S participated in a Saturday music program for three years, partly because his small arts school wasn’t able to provide him with the large ensemble experience that a jazz trumpet player needs. </p>

<p>Having S do the Saturday program was one of the best decisions we made. He got lots of experience playing in big bands, which was the point. But being in the Saturday school also meant that he was playing 6 days a week. And, as one of his teachers says, the jobs go to the musicians who play the most. His playing improved so much over the last three years, and I can’t imagine that would have happened in the same way without that 6 day a week practice.</p>

<p>It might not be the same for vocalists, but having that immersive experience in music can be really beneficial for young musicians.</p>

<p>trumpetguysmom, I’m not saying this to pick on you, but you have just run across one of my pet peeves by implying that only those who play instruments are musicians. Vocalists can and should be musicians too. For lack of a better word, I prefer calling those who use an external apparatus to make their music instrumentalists.</p>

<p>Bassdad, point taken. Having been a vocalist myself, in the dim dark past, I was making a too oblique reference to my memory that vocalists often need to treat their instrument differently, than say, an oboeist, because of the differences in the physical processes involved. I am not familiar with current best practice in vocal training, and didn’t want to assume that it’s good practice for vocalists to sing every day. I meant no disrespect to vocal musicians.</p>