<p>
exactly. If your kids, whether Asian or not, are not high enough to be accepted at top five colleges, or top ten, then there is no point with these arguments. Because the anti-Asian practices are serious at these schools more than others.</p>
<p>You’ve made it clear how anti-Asian you really are.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>why so nasty, I wonder?</p>
<p>Nobody said it was shameful to care about “these things,” just that it is a long shot for anyone to get into these schools. Any. one.</p>
<p>The “weird” thing is how the people I know who went to “Ivies” would be horrified by being represented by someone in that fashion. Some of us were actually accepted to “ivies” but that was back before the middle class financial aid they have now and chose to go to our state universities for undergrad. Some of us went to top 5, or even top 1, grad programs, as well.</p>
<p>The point most of us are making is that you can get a good education at many institutions, and not to get heartbroken if you have to take another route.</p>
<p>As for me, personally, I’m a bigger fan of the top LAC’s, just for the quality of instruction the students will get from the profs. But, that is a matter of personal taste.</p>
<p>mini
</p>
<p>Your adopted daughter did well ?? Good for her and good for you. Your insulting remarks clearly says you aare not an asian. Also, I am probably older than you are … as my kids friends parents are about ten years younger than I. Now, when you folks make this insulting remarks, it is ok to all those attacking in unisom starbright bovertine annasdad poetgirl and nonpoetgirl. But when I say something 10% that of yours, you superior folks swarm like bees and sting in groups. like the group in the south. Yikes. my kids are step above yours if you wish to know.</p>
<p><a href=“by%20CC%20standards”>quote</a>
[/quote]
*** do you mean by this? CC standard covers the entire spectrum. What IS CC standard?</p>
<p>
folks blaming others for being nasty and emotional are as guilty as those whom they are attacking. Now, it is exactly that reason, that because it is a long shot for any one, we like to see kids compete on level playing field – not making asian kids start from a line way behind of the rest.</p>
<p>You’re not “Asian” either. You may be (or may not be) Chinese-American, or Indian-American, or Japanese-American, or Korean-American; you are likely not Mien-American, Hmong-American, Laotian-American, Kham-American, Mongolian-American, Uzbeki-American, Iranian-American, Afghan-American, Tuva-American, Balinese-American, Kazakh-American, Kurdish-American, Armenian-American, Sri Lankan-American, Azerbaijani-American, Turkaman-American, or Papua New-Guinean-American. (In fact, I doubt that you even know any of them.)</p>
<p>But you aren’t “Asian”. And frankly, you have no idea what I am. (Hint: I don’t check the Caucasian box.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There is no level playing field, unfortunately.</p>
<p>Those who live grow up in poverty, without access to good schooling, or enough to eat, who share a bed with a sibling, who have to work and take care of siblings and don’t have time or money for EC’s or Prep study for tests, or even enough time to do the basic homework at night or get enough sleep, or those whose parents are not educated enough to help them with their homework or even to get them access to the resources they would need otherwise? I work with some of those kids in a writing workshop format and some of them are exceptionally bright and barely have time to dream of tomorrow, let alone the kind of level playing field we would all want for them. Heck, some of them barely even know there is a playing field. It’s all I can do to assist some of them in dreaming of community college. </p>
<p>There just isn’t a level playing field for anyone.</p>
<p>Sad but true.</p>
<p>
poetgirl, like … race?
Please. THEY SEE EVERYTHING BUT RACE, THAT WOULD BE nice. The reality is, for asian applicants, the race factor can trump everything. That’s for the other half of the kids who would have gotten in were it not for their race.</p>
<p>Asians have comprised about 15-20% of recent entering classes at Harvard.
Asians are about 25-30% of the entering classes at Yale and Princeton. These are very high numbers relative to the percentage of Asians in the general population (about 5%). So what is the evidence that they face race-based discrimination in elite college admissions?</p>
<p>A have not read every post, but the only evidence I’ve seen is a claim that Harvard reserves 58% of admission spots for “hooked” applicants (legacies, athletes, URMs, etc.), and that Asians are sparsely represented in these categories. This number is surely misinterpreted (as annasdad pointed out) because it represents the sum of several subsets (the URM % + athlete % + legacy %) that are in fact overlapping. I have heard that Harvard “tags” about 40% of applications for one or more of these categories. Sorry I don’t have a citation for this, but it seems more plausible to me than 58%. </p>
<p>Whether the real number is 40%, 58%, or something else, so what? When these schools say they practice “holistic” admissions, I believe they really mean it. So they aren’t just looking for kids with the highest grades and SAT scores. </p>
<p>If they were, there might be some evidence of discrimination. It does appear to be the case that Asian students have much higher average SAT scores than African Americans or whites at some of these schools ([Black/Asian</a> SAT Scores at Elite LACs | Eph Log 3.5a(lpha): Mid-Semester Break](<a href=“http://www.eph-log.com/eph-archives/2011/04/12/blackasian-sat-scores-at-elite-lacs]Black/Asian”>http://www.eph-log.com/eph-archives/2011/04/12/blackasian-sat-scores-at-elite-lacs)). Is this evidence that Asians are held to a higher standard? Or is it the case that Asian applicants aren’t as strong as other applicants in extracurriculars, essays, and other factors?</p>
<p>I don’t know. I don’t think anyone on this board knows, because there is not enough data available on acceptance v. application rates by race, with detailed descriptions of what factors (other than grades and scores) affected the decisions.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thank you! I wonder too. The idea that only those ivy-connected can discuss ivies seems a whole new level of elitism? ymmv - I also don’t understand attacking a poster’s credentials/qualifications to give an opinion instead of just refuting their opinion or idea. Also, some people here purposefully don’t post what all kinds of ivy connections they have. They never tell where their kids go to school. Some posters, I am pretty sure, are open minded enough to see shortcomings in institutions they know very well. Even if we can “all” (lol:))agree that HYP is very very good, we can still - I hope!- agree it is far from perfect.</p>
<p>like poetgrl I prefer LACs, which imho offer best education for most undergrads but none of my children actually have attended one!!! I can offer an opinion that is in no way self-serving - but based on personal observation</p>
<p>I think it helps to take the information on these boards with a grain of salt. No one here is evaluating your application; the schools are. You shouldn’t let a few strangers on the internet deter you from applying to good schools. Instead, ask the people who are in a position to judge your work–your teachers, your guidance counselor, anyone else who has seen your work–to give you some honest feedback on the schools to which you should apply.</p>
<p>Use these boards for general information only.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Discuss away. If you didn’t attend a particular category of college or send a kid to one in that group then I do question why you would feel compelled to repeatedly insult the quality of education and advantages of attending such a school. </p>
<p>Those who engage in this – and one frequent CC poster sort of leads the pack – are, imo, driven by resentment of institutions that they didn’t attend or send a kid to attend for undergrad. And I think it should be noted when they disparage them in the voice of an expert, which they assuredly are not.</p>
<p>No college is perfect. Some are enormously selective and this compels some people to constantly criticize them. To me, that’s sort of “nasty.”</p>
<p>sewhappy: it bothered me a whole lot on one thread when a poster said HYP wasn’t necessarily as intellectually challenging as other schools. Why, I don’t know. HYP certainly doesn’t need my defending it LOL I tried to give an example of how HYP is sometimes the most intellectually challenging experience possible for certain students. I assumed the poster doesn’t know what some students at HYP are actually doing and might be interested to read a different POV. I prefer not to assume someone is posting just to say something unpleasant.</p>
<p>I know, I know, I am not the boss of the message board and completely off topic on this thread. 
But I am getting sort of old and all around bossy. And of course will now have to spend the rest of the day wondering how often I post just for the opportunity to be unpleasant :(</p>
<p>It doesn’t bother me when posters put down HYP et al. It is a typical human way of rationalizing away disappointment in not having something that they want and can’t have.</p>
<p>What really bothers me is when posters continually come onto CC and persistently proclaim that Asians are unlawfully discriminated against, when this topic has been examined and dissected for years and years by numerous experts, and has never been proved. If the proof is out there, then bring it on, and I mean in real life. It is hard to respect perpetual “victimhood.”</p>
<p>Bay - I honestly don’t think all posters criticize HYP because they are rationalizing away disappointment in not having something that they want and can’t have. They are not perfect institutions. It is okay imho to point that out. Not only are they not perfect institutions, but some other institutions can really and truly be better choices for some students. ymmv
:)</p>
<p>Ok, then if you can explain to me why the number of Fullbright rejects determines the quality of an undergrad education (per mini), then I will back off my claim.</p>
<p>Harvard had 107 rejects, Arizona State only had 57; ergo, ASU is the better undergrad.</p>
<p>P.S. Smith didn’t have any Fullbrights</p>
<p>As a woman and an Asian going into finance 30 years ago, there were never any proof we were being discriminated either. Truth be told, I have never felt like I was personally discriminated against. But if I walked into any senior management meeting, there would be 80% men and 20% women (or no women at all). I don´t know how I am paid relative to my male colleagues, wouldn´t suprised it is lower. If you were to speak with HR, they would tell you there is absolutely no discrimination. They could show you their interview process, how many women interviewed and how many were selected to show there is no discrimination. There is no reason for them to keep any data which would incriminate them.</p>
<p>I found out by accident that one of my male managers said to one of his female staff at the bonus time, “I couldn´t pay you as much because I had to pay this guy more. He needs money more than you do because he just got his mistress pregnant (not wife), and you have a good husband to support you.”</p>
<p>This kind of conversation is not recorded or documented, and this is also one off. This is not different than college admission. All of my niece and nephews have done well with the college process, and my own kid as well. But we do hear a lot of other Asians kids, with almost perfect scores, high GPA, but maybe playing table tennis (instead of football), with 20+ APs, who were rejected when other kids with lower stats were accepted. To be frank, if I were the admission office, I wouldn´t want to keep track of admittance rate by race either.</p>
<p>I have never felt like a victim at work, but it was easier for me to navigate once I figured out the truth. I have used my gender, age, race to my advantage. It works both ways too.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>Yeah – I noticed that and wondered why mini didn’t seem to notice it.</p>
<p>(19 - see Baccalaureate Institutions.) AZU has six times as many students as H. Smith has half as many. (And if you look at the last 8 years of Fulbrights, it is even more striking.)</p>
<p>“Ok, then if you can explain to me why the number of Fullbright rejects determines the quality of an undergrad education (per mini), then I will back off my claim.”</p>
<p>First of all, it doesn’t “determine” anything. But I will explain to you why it is ONE (of MANY other) indicators, some others of which I cited. Students go in with what is supposed to be a degree of intelligence and preparation, and it is assumed (for sake of argument) that schools with higher “selectivity”, “higher GPAs”, and “higher SATs” have “better” students. Then during that four-year period, something happens to those students. It is usually called “education”. It can be the quality of classroom teaching, the quality of mentoring, the availability of research opportunities, the quality of study abroad programs, the attention paid to the student’s writing. At the end of that four-year period, students apply for an array of opportunities. Some of those opportunities are not solely a test of “intelligence”, but of quality of preparation. Fulbright is a prime example. Ph.D. graduate school admissions are another. The students getting the Fulbrights are not those with the highest SAT scores. Nor are those getting the Ph.D. graduate fellowships. There are others as well. </p>
<p>So when you see some schools (what you might think of as) “over-performing” what might otherwise be expected in a bunch of those areas, despite demonstrably having what are considered “poorer” students at entrance, you know (or suspect) that something (again, usually called “education”) made a difference.</p>
<p>Could have been the water.</p>
<p>HYP offers excellent undergraduate education (as did/does UChicago, where I taught). But I happen to think there are at least 20 places that offer better. Others may differ in their opinions, and that’s fine with me. If you think that having your kids listen to my d. for two hours a week, and having her grade your kids’ exams and papers and determine their grades is the BEST available education, more power to you. Obviously, a lot of people agree with you, and will continue to agree with you. I certainly won’t be able to change their minds, and that’s fine with me as well. And I hope, and expect, that my d. will - someday - live up to your expectations.</p>
<p>Even though D2 is only half Asian, ECs she listed on her Common Apps were everything white people could relate to - Editor in Chief, reading, head of charity foundations…Even though she plays violin and piano beautifully, they were listed at the very, very bottom under musical instrument(s), one category to include both.</p>