schools comparable to Fordham

Colleges and Universities A-Z Fordham University
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<p>Starbury: I generally agree with you. Sometimes on retakes scores can go down. All I know is that there is a weird science to the SAT exam. I know very average kids who scored 50 or more points higher than my D did, and who otherwise are unremarkable....not in grades, not in personality, not in creativity, etc....they just had a knack for standardized testing. One got into Dartmouth (with a hook, her private school college counselor knew an insider at Dartmouth) and it just blew us away. I also know someone who was counseled on the SAT and took a BUNCH of SAT prep course work for every year from 6th grade on, and scored EXCEEDINGLY well when she finally took the one that counted in Junior Year...and scored a 1580 and of course got into Princeton. It is an exam that can be coached. It DOESNT measure success in college. The new President of Wake Forest University is Dr. Nathan Hatch, the former Provost at Notre Dame for 10 years. He KNOWS what he is doing to say the least. He recently made Wake Forest SAT optional precisely because it is a poor measure of success in college, and they also cited the fact that the college board itself reported that since they went to the new format, the writing score is likely the best measure of success in college.....the one section of the SAT that most colleges ignore completely. So its used as a blunt instrument. I empathize with admissions officers because they have a tough task. Fordham, eg. had 23,000 applications last year for 1700 seats..they admitted roughly 9,000, and yet had a larger retention this year than last year and thus are doing more triples this year and scrambling. It is what it is. Fordham's scores have increased by 100 points in three years because of several factors: the largest demographic in history (2 million high school seniors last year) applying to college; a HUGE increase in applications from 11,000 to 23,000 in less than five years at Fordham, increased notoriety from the media like USNWR; and as kids get waitlisted and dumped at higher ranking schools like BC, they are heading for "relative safety" to Fordham. Not that Fordham is tagged as a "safety school", but its like the Tufts Syndrome, if you know what I mean. All that enures to the benefit of Fordham and the students there. You get overall a better quality of students, it seems to me, in class...because not only has the SAT scores gone up, but so has the requisite gpa. It used to be that if you were from Long Island, you got into Fordham. Not so anymore. You gotta cut the mustard: 1250 or better SAT and 3.5 or better gpa to be "matched". Also, Fr. McShane has openly stated its his agenda to restore Fordham to its once lofty post as being the top Catholic university in the nation. Whether he gets there or not I dont know, but he is sure going to show Georgetown, Holy Cross, Boston College and Notre Dame what kind of fight he has in him. So it would NOT surprise me to see Fordham's SAT scores go even higher. What was once the 75th percentile or higher will become the 50th percentile, etc. Its almost there now. And as Fordham reaches out to distant regions outside the tristate area, it will recruit even brighter kids. I applaud that. </p>

<p>As for the NYU and Fordham comparison, its really a matter of personal preference on the TYPE of experience a student wants. They are vastly different, it seems to me in culture and the overall college experience. Though Lincoln Center obviously is more in the genre of NYU than Rose Hill. NYU has more national recognition and a lot of kids dont know about Fordham in the south or west, outside of the Catholic community. So that needs to change. What will do that? I would strongly suggest to Fordham Admissions to adopt the WashU-St. Louis, method....massive mailings of glitzy marketing materials to get the word out. Heck, even St. Louis University (a sister Jesuit college) has a VERY aggressive marketing campaign.....they were on my D like flies on a picnic ham...calling 8-10 times, offering her a huge scholarship, massive mailing campaign.....and we live 15 hours from St. Louis by car. (Are you listening Mr. Farrell? lol) </p>

<p>Of course, in the end, its about fit for the college AND the student. I just think that if people get over to Rose Hill and see the campus, and experience the life of the student body during the school year, it can sell itself well. But you have to get them there first. </p>

<p>To CBA: International Political Economy is a RIGOROUS course and major. You will work hard but have wonderful internship opportunities. You wont be unemployed if you do your work.</p>

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<p>Yes, IPE is a demanding major and has become a popular one at Fordham. Nocousin, I just think more often than not, the group of students that do score higher on the SAT exam generally tend to be the "better" group than the students that do not score as high. If SAT is a poor measure, then I do not what other measuring sticks are out there. Even SAT Writing, one can get coached and learn the "ins" and "outs" and do very well on the exam. I took the SAT II writing exam back in 2004 (we still had the old SAT exam that consisted of just verbal and math) and scored a 600 on the first try and 670 on the second try. I just prepared harder and attempted more practice problems the second time around; I do not think that my writing or grammar necessarily improved by that much. </p>

<p>What else is a good measure? GPA? Well, I think GPA is even less accurate of an indicator. For example, I had the bad luck of getting some really tough and unfair teachers throughout high school, which must have affected my GPA by at least 2 to 3 tenths of a point. Even if you are stuck with one TERRIBLE teacher, it is very hard to repair a C on a transcript. You need four more A's to make up for that C and get your GPA back up to a 3.5. I know many students that consistently got the best teachers and performed very well in the class but knew very little about the subject. At my high school, there was little to no control over picking out a schedule/teachers. </p>

<p>The type of disparity I mentioned above existed within one school; now consider all of the different schools within a town, city, state, and across the U.S. How can you compare a student attending a high school in Arizona with a student attending a high school in NY? GPA/rank would not be a good indicator even within one school. That's why you need a "standardized" test. So, I feel that if a student fails an algebra or an english class for whatever reason, he/she should have the opportunity to redeem himself/herself. Maybe SAT II subject exams would be a better indicator? </p>

<p>I wholeheartedly agree with you that Fordham has to do something and something quick about their Public Relations. Fordham's PR is as bad as it gets. Barely anyone knows about Fordham outside of the northeast. Even within NY, there are students who have only heard of the name and know very little about the school. </p>

<p>You wrote:</p>

<p>"I just think that if people get over to Rose Hill and see the campus, and experience the life of the student body during the school year, it can sell itself well. But you have to get them there first."</p>

<p>I could not have agreed more with this statement. Fordham was #9 or #10 on my list out of the 12 or so schools that I applied to. This is because I knew very little about Fordham (and I went to a public high school in Queens, NY) and I only regarded Fordham as a safety school at that time (around 2004-2005). In fact, the only way that I found out about Fordham was looking at the US News rankings and seeing its name. Even SUNY Binghamton and CUNY Baruch were ahead on the list of schools that I made for myself. However, once I made a visit to the campus and found out more about the school such as the average salary of the students that graduate from the Business school and the average class size among many other things, I instantly began to consider Fordham as a top target school for myself. Fordham's proximity to Manhattan only solidified my decision. At the end, I ended up turning down schools like Syracuse, UMich, Penn State, Baruch, and even Emory (Oxford campus). </p>

<p>My graduating class consisted of 800-900 students and only about 10 students applied to Fordham and I was the only student to attend Rose Hill (one other student attended Lincoln Center). How is this acceptable from a public school in Queens, just 20 minutes away from Fordham? Fordham has to to increase its recruiting efforts. Like you said, its only a matter of finding a way to get the prospective students to the campus. Most students are enchanted by the charm of the campus and find it hard to turn down such an aesthetic campus just 25 minutes away from Manhattan. Sending out glittering brochures of the campus to prospective students would be a start. We need to improve the quality of our student body and that would only come from targeting more prospective students from more diverse backgrounds (maybe more students from public schools). If we can get the average SAT to increase by another 100 points (so that the bottom 25% starts at 1270), maybe we can start being mentioned in the same breath as NYU and other aspirant catholic schools that we are chasing after (i.e. GT, BC, ND).</p>

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<p>My, you were up late last night! LOL.</p>

<p>Its a process and it takes time. I have not spoken to Fr. McShane, but I am quite certain he has a plan of action (along with the Board and senior executives on campus) in which to take Fordham to the next level. He isnt just giving nice speeches in front of throngs of adoring minyans. He is a "doer" not just a talker. BC was catapulted up the ladder of prestige by a certain quarterback and a famous football game. That did more for their notoriety than anything and applications increased in number and quality to the point where its ridiculously hard to be admitted there. So sports also has to be part of Fordham's plan of action. </p>

<p>So it comes down to what YOU can do. You can contact Admissions and Peter Farrell and ask them how and what they are doing to attract a more geographically diverse student body and "the best and the brightest". Marketing, marketing, marketing. Its all in the marketing. And getting SUPERB admissions officers out there and travelling around. They need to hire regional admissions officers who get out there and pound the pavement. Inspirational people. All too often when kids consider going to college in New York they think of Columbia or NYU. They hear the name "Bronx" and wrinkle their faces. They have no idea about Fordham or how nice the campus is. Yet its no more dangerous than ANY college campus in any part of the country. University of Southern California is considered a top 20 school. Its amazing. But its in the Watts, for gosh sakes! South LA. Yet they attract the best and brightest and the most competitive athletes in the country. Its also a private school. I digress.</p>

<p>As for rankings in general, I am not obsessed with it. I just want Fordham to flourish and to get the best students. It has a mission statement to serve the New York community and that is fine. It has tradition of recruiting heavily from Long Island and surrounding areas from the top Catholic schools. That is fine. But that is not the path to greatness in the larger sense. They can continue to do that, but they can also reach out further.</p>

<p>Alumnae can also help. As kids come from different regions and the word gets out, people will say, "hmmmm......that is an interesting idea!" I can't tell you how many people I see at the beach, on the street, in the grocery store who see my Fordham baseball cap ask me, "Is that in New York? How is it?" or say, "I know Fordham....Vince Lombardi, right? Great school!" And it is.</p>

<p>Of course, not every student wants to attend college in New York or work in Manhattan. Some prefer a southern country club setting....Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Duke, Furman, UNC etc. Some want HUGE sports like Georgia, Tennessee, Michigan, Iowa, Ohio State, UCLA, Arizona State. Some want a rural setting like Grinnell, Kenyon, Williams, Dartmouth, Sewannee, Washington and Lee etc. We are blessed as a country to offer so many choices to kids. </p>

<p>The point I was making was that if a kid wants a large city experience, and if that includes New York, to think Fordham in the same breath as NYU and Columbia.</p>

<p>No school is perfect. Trust me on that. But that is where students come in....working in a positive manner to make it better. Being part of that process.</p>

<p>As for gpa, I understand what you are saying. We all know that admissions is an imperfect process at every school and judgments are made that are often not accurate. We all know that kids shop for easy profs at Fordham and shop for easy classes and grades in High School, even within an "honors or AP" curriculum. It happened to my D. She routinely got the hardest teachers....and while some of her friends dropped classes to change to an easier teacher to polish their gpa and class rank, she stood and took the medicine...but she may have learned more along the way. </p>

<p>In life, as in business, there is a certain element of "selling oneself" that we all have to come to grips with. Its a matter of degree. We all know the difference between a suck up and "apple polisher" from someone who is optimistic, positive and outgoing. Being clever and navigating the system is also part of life. So we learn.....opportunism is not necessarily evil....it can be useful. Cynics and negative people dont do well in the working world. They are passed over for promotions and often are shunned or even fired. The difference is EQ, not IQ. What is EQ? Emotional Intelligence. People with high EQ tend to do better in society and the working world. Call it the power of positive thinking. Or simply, employers want "can do" people" not whiners and complainers. People who FIX problems, not complain about them or cause problems. </p>

<p>Fordham is already a hot school. Its getting very positive press in the national media. I know I have done my part to spread the "Gospel" down here. But change takes time. So we live by example. That is the best teacher of all.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>I actually wasn't up late last night; I'm spending my summer in India haha (9.5 hr difference in time). </p>

<p>I completely agree with the points that you made. It is quite encouraging to see that there are people who recognize and react to Fordham's name. We are very unique in comparison to other New York schools and we need to sell that uniqueness. You're right that we all have to do our part as alumnae. Thank you for everything that you have done with respect to getting out Fordham's name. This is indeed in our control and we all need to do our level best in getting the name out so that more and more people hear about Fordham. I graduated just last May and will try do my best as a young alumni. </p>

<p>Thank you for some great tips - I will be entering the working world in Manhattan this upcoming September. I think Fordham does a great job of preparing its students to excel in the "real world" by giving them an open and positive outlook on life. As the years go on, I will become more and more involved and try to help Fordham out in every way possible. I am very passionate about the school and LOYAL to it. In fact, my brother is going to be a sophomore at Lincoln Center so our whole family loves Fordham haha, </p>

<p>Keep up the good work!</p>

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<p>There are two, well, what I will describe as "theories" regarding Fordham's status in academics—both in public and alumni perception.</p>

<p>There's the theory that it's not NYU because it's not cutthroat, that you'll make friends, that the administration and your fellow classmates are here to help, that kind of thing;</p>

<p>And then there's the theory that no one at Fordham will hold your hand, that Fordham helps prepare you for the real world, unlike, say the Ivy League, and that you will have to work very very hard just like the real world and A's are very hard to come by—that kind of thing.</p>

<p>These are two very opposing theories; I think it would benefit Fordham, and the alumni community, to figure out what exact space Fordham wants to map out for itself.</p>

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<p>I dont see those theories as opposing to one another at all. Being "cutthroat" means its hyper competitive and that people are not there to help you, but in fact to trample upon you and do anything to attain their rank, status, grade, gpa, job opportunity. Being in the "real world" and having to "work for A's" does not mean cutthroat or trampling upon you. It simply means that while your classmates and administration are helpful and friendly, you still have to do the work. Its work ethic. Not personal ethics.</p>

<p>Fordham can be, and is (in my opinion) BOTH. It is a place where you are well prepared for the real world, while at the same time being nurturing and helpful without being cutthroat or backstabbing. </p>

<p>Its not a candy "rear-end" type of place, but its not a cold and calculating place either. Its "the city" but its not "the jungle." See where I am going with this?</p>

<p>Fordham knows how to market itself (content). Where it needs help is on the execution (where and how.) There are many at Fordham that are loyalists to its historical sphere of influence and recruiting pool: the private and catholic schools on Long Island and the tri-state area, and to some extent serving the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens. I do not suggest they abandon that mission. I am only saying they need to emphasize it less and market it more to other regions of the country.</p>

<p>For example, I know for a fact that St. Louis University gets HOARDS of names from the College Board when kids identify themselves as Catholic on the SAT exam. They then contact those students when they fall within their desired SAT ranges. They phone them, they write them, they send them glossy marketing materials (not as overwhelming as WashU, their neighbor across the park in St. Louis), but they are very aggressive. That is one methodology. Another methodology is to do what Vanderbilt does...they send out an ARMY of HIGHLY intelligent and outgoing admissions reps all over the country and talk to high school counselors and students. 20 years ago Vandy was a distinctly southern school with a "finishing school" kind of reputation. That has ALL CHANGED. Now they have a HUGE percentage of kids from other regions, they get the best and brightest, and they are now respected as a highly selective, serious academic school. </p>

<p>Fordham has the money to do both. </p>

<p>You dont try to be all things to all people. You sell your strengths and be yourself. I really think its a matter of getting their name in front of people. Many kids would like to go to school in NYC but shy away because they dont want or dont qualify for Columbia or NYU. There is a third choice: Fordham.</p>

<p>(not to mention several other schools in and around NYC: Sarah Lawrence, Manhattan College, St. Johns, etc.)</p>

<p>I dont think A's are that hard to come by at Fordham IF YOU DO THE WORK and IF YOU ARE A SERIOUS STUDENT. Some professors of course, are exceptionally strict and stingy about A's. Oh well, life is not always about getting A's. But Fordham is not a school "invested in grade inflation" like so many other schools...some of them HIGHLY prestigious.....ahem, some Ivy League Schools I have heard about. Stanford got busted by a Newsweek report several years ago.....turns out every MBA student in one class had a 4.0. I dont know if they fixed that or not.</p>