Top colleges admissions without AP sciences?

Parents Forum
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<p>Dear fellow parents of college and high school students, do anyone has an experience or opinions about the importance of the maximum science workload at hs for the admissions to the top colleges? </p>

<p>My D (now junior) is strong in all academic areas (including math and sciences) but considers herself more of a "humanities person" with the especially strong interests in music and languages/linguistics. So far, she has had 4 APs (Music Theory, US History, BC Calculus, French) and numerous honors classes, including Chemistry and Physisc Honors. Her senior year she plans to take 3 APs (Statisics, Gov., English) and, being true to her main passion, a bunch of music electives. She also considers to take some community college classes in one more language and/or psychology as it would have much more relevancy to her interests than any of the lab sciences offered at school. </p>

<p>But she wants to have a shot at the very selective colleges, which have on their web-sites the "high school prep" section: it usually says something like "lab sciences 3 or 4 years", or "3 years of science (4 recommended)" etc. </p>

<p>She actually considers taking AP Chemistry (so far, chem had been the only lab science she really liked) at her school, but had heard it's among the hardest APs and her school is not known to have really good chem teachers for AP level. DD also wants to have more time than she does this year for her music activities and to sleep, excersize, do the college applications ... and generally, have some life. </p>

<p>Would, in your opinions (or, saying by your kids' experiences) not having AP science in her courseload detrimental to her chances at the very selective places? Or, would taking cc classes in humanities be appreciated by adcoms equally to taking AP class in science?</p>

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<p>S1 was admitted to a top LAC in 2000 without an AP in math or science.</p>

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<p>S admitted to Williams, Bowdoin,and Wesleyan, among other schools, in late 1990s with no AP science, lackluster grade in AB calc, and on other APs except history and foreign language. Did have excellent grades in those and all other courses at a pretty rigorous HS--I think you'll get anecdotal responses all over the map re this question. Also, expectations may have changed in the past 5 years or so.</p>

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<p>Have her take AP Physics AB instead of AP Statistics, whcih is not considered nearly as rigorous a class as the science AP's. Then there will be no question aboiut 4 yrs of science . Worked for my son, whose strength and love is also in the Humanities, but who did very well overall in HS and had many college acceptances, including quite a few from "elite" colleges.</p>

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<p>D admitted to one of the Ivy League schools (this year, Early Decision) with AP Environmental Science (a very simple, "AP lite" sort of course) as her only AP science. But she had high SAT scores, a high GPA, and plenty of other AP and IB courses. </p>

<p>The colleges know that science isn't everyone's passion.</p>

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<p>menloparkmom, i assume you mean AP Physics B(which you might have confused with AP Calculus AB)</p>

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<p>My D was admitted EA to Yale last year without an AP science course - she was taking a third year of Ancient Greek instead. All of her AP courses were in the humanities except AB and BC Calculus (but she did have very strong science grades and won school prizes for Biology and Physics).</p>

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<p>My daughter was admitted to a very selective LAC ED with a considerable merit scholarship with no APs in math and science. For various reasons, this school did not turn out to be the best fit for her, and she successfully transferred to Swarthmore after her freshman year. </p>

<p>She took "Honors Calculus" as a senior, as she was not in the very highest math class tracked into AP Calculus at our school. (We could have asked for an exception in her placement so that she could take AP Calculus, but decided not to.) She also took AP Psychology instead of the more demanding AP Biology as a senior because she wanted to have the time to do an independent study of AP Art History, which was a strong interest of hers. She took Honors Biology, Honors Chemistry, and Honors Physics in grades 9-11. At some other schools, the science sequence is Physical Science, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics, so students do not take Physics unless they take four years of science. I think colleges do like to see that applicants have taken Physics. </p>

<p>Her other APs were English Literature, English Composition, European History, US History, and US Politics, for a total of seven, including the Independent Study. She took Advanced Art and Wind Ensemble (her strong interests) all through high school as electives.</p>

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<p>yup, I meant AP Physics B. Mixed it up with his AP Calculus class.</p>

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<p>My daughter, a senior at Yale , didn't take any AP science courses in high school, although she did take BC calc AP (like your daughter) and Bio, Chem and Physics honors.</p>

<p>I think I might be concerned if she didn't have a lab science or math in her senior year. Most top schools want students to challenge themselves as seniors, so she should be sure her courses seem progressively more challenging.</p>

<p>I think I agree with the poster who nixed statistics - I'd go with AP chem or physics instead. Stats isn't seen as nearly as challenging as either of these.</p>

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<p>Gov, Stat and Lit, plus non-academic electives appears like a "light" senior schedule....I'm of the believer that five academic core subjects is better than 3, particularly for highly selective schools. Moreover, Gov and Stats are in the so-called AP Lite group, as is Psych. Community college classes aren't necessarily viewed as rigorous as a corresponding AP class.</p>

<p>Did she take Bio Frosh year? Can she take AP Enviro instead of Physics B?</p>

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<p>My D's high school doesn't offer AP Enviro or any APs in Physics. AP Bio and AP Chem only, both are real killers in terms of workload.</p>

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<p>" Most top schools want students to challenge themselves as seniors, so she should be sure her courses seem progressively more challenging."
" five academic core subjects is better than 3, particularly for highly selective schools. Moreover, Gov and Stats are in the so-called AP Lite group, as is Psych. Community college classes aren't necessarily viewed as rigorous as a corresponding AP class."
You should keep in mind these 2 statements from above if your D wants a shot at very selective colleges, especialy these days with so many baby-boomlet applicants all trying to get in to the same "elite" colleges. Especially the first statement. For those aiming for the most selective colleges, Senior year is NOT the time to be taking fewer challenging classes. She need to take advantage of the courses offered by her HS. If there is a subject she is interested in that is NOT offered there,such as a 2nd language, then great, have her take that as well , if she has time. You have mentioned in past posts that she is passionate about studying music theory, and I believe she will be applying to colleges with strong music programs, correct? I would advise that she wait until college to dive into that areas fully, and not take outside music theory classes INSTEAD of rigorous academic classes offered by her HS. Her application WILL be evaluated by ad-com's not only for the classes she did take, but it will be also compared to applications from other students in her class who are applying to the same colleges.</p>

<p>"</p>

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<p>S admitted to Penn and Chicago without AP science or math. He had regular Calc. His prep school didn't encourage taking APs across the board- kids were usually focused in humanities or the science/math area. Some did, but most didn't.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Most top schools want students to challenge themselves as seniors, so she should be sure her courses seem progressively more challenging.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The OP's daughter has already taken BC Calculus, an AP foreign language, and AP U.S. History. At most high schools, it would be hard to create a senior program that is more challenging than what she has already done. But that doesn't mean that she did anything wrong. It just means that the most impressive courses happened to show up in her program before senior year.</p>

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<p>Unless the D has a strong interest in Lang, I don't think taking Lang 1 will add much to strength of schedule, since it is a Frosh-level course, and the adcoms will KNOW that there are other senior-level offerings. Taking Lang at a local community college might be a little better (assuming the juco curriculum covers 2 years of HS language in one college semester).</p>

<p>Yes, AP's can be a LOT of work, but isn't that the point: attending a highly selective liberal arts can be a LOT of work too, and taking a challenging senior year is a good way to impress adcoms. OTOH, if D is going to be applying to conservatory-type programs, then it likely doesn't matter.</p>

<p>Just my $0.02! :)</p>

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<p>Myau, I was still typing when you posted about her HS not having any AP Physics classes. Well, my advice, for what it's worth, is for her to take the AP Chem, Gov and English classes, skip statistics, and see if the outside language course at the CC can be shown on her HS transcript. Then as many music electives she can fit in, since they show her passion and will be a good prompt for her essays. As far as college applications are concerned, if she is organised ahead of time, she can save herself a lot of angst by finishing her essays by the middle of Sept- almost all colleges have their essay prompts available by mid Aug. That would go a long way to helping insure a more stress-free Sr year. Nothing is worse that having to write essays under a deadline, while studying for finals!</p>

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<p>My daughter is at Barnard. She has no real math after 10th grade, when she took Algebra II. She had regular (non honors) biology & chemistry, plus conceptual physics (not a lab course). She was also accepted at U. of Chicago, NYU & Berkeley.</p>

<p>She did provide colleges with an explanation. She did a semester abroad junior year, and when she came back was not allowed to enter a math or hard science course mid-year. (She was permitted to enroll in AP Psych mid year & later scored 5 on the AP Psych exam). Senior year she had to make up US history (missed while she was abroad), plus other required courses -- and was unable to schedule a math course, and could barely find a spot in the physics class. Her high school does not offer any AP sciences, nor any math beyond trigonometry/precalc. Her transcript from her semester abroad does show math and science -- but I think everyone understood that with her initial limited proficiency in the language of her host country, she couldn't have learned much in those courses. </p>

<p>On top of all that she has weak standardized test scores.</p>

<p>Obviously she had strengths: she studied a language 4 years through AP level, traveled abroad twice to improve her language skills - and she comes from an arts high school where she was a talented dancer and choreographer. She applied as prospective foreign studies or linguistics major -- no expectation of pursuing math or science in college beyond what is minimally required by the school. </p>

<p>My advice: the student should go with her strengths and interests, and aim for colleges where those interests can best be expressed and developed, without worrying about rank and prestige until after the list of colleges has been assembled. My daughter's college choices all share strong programs in slavic languages - and obviously it was her proficiency in that area that got her through the door.</p>

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<p>Myau, My son who is now a senior at Williams didn't take either math or science his senior year of high school, although he did well and was interested in both. </p>

<p>At the time, this decision caused me a good deal of angst as I had, like you, read all the recommended applicant profiles provided by the colleges. In retrospect I think it was the right decision for him but I would add that if your daughter chooses this route it's critical that she make a good case for herself in her essays and supplemental material. </p>

<p>Looking at her senior year course load, I don't think a lab science would be missed at all. I don't see language or psychology as substitutes per se, but as reasonable addenda because of personal interest. My son chose to take a comparative religion course for much the same reason: It complemented his interests and played well with his eventual intended area of study.</p>

<p>"Being true to her main passion" is exactly the operable theme here. In my son's case it was art, religion and creative writing that pushed out the science/math classes but the same premise applies. (The irony of his situation is that he's now thinking about architecture and is consequently sweating through calculus in his senior year.)</p>

<p>If your daughter is headed toward a conservatory then I would think that the lab science would be even less significant.</p>

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<p>Thank you, guys, for your replies.</p>

<p>bluebayou,</p>

<p>"Did she take Bio Frosh year?"</p>

<p>Yes, she did. </p>

<p>Marian,</p>

<p>"At most high schools, it would be hard to create a senior program that is more challenging than what she has already done."</p>

<p>Yes, that's the point. It's also humanely impossible to have any more intense workload and crazy schedule than she has right now. Actually, it's impossible to have such a schedule as it is now for anybody, anytime. To survive her current school workload she would (reasonably) have to quit music and all her music-related EC activities ... but she doesn't want to. </p>

<p>At her school, AP USH = 3-4 hours of daily h/w, AP Calc BC = 2-3 hrs of h/w, and 3 of her other academic classes (AP French, Am. Lit., Chem Honors) = 30 min to 1.5 hour of h/w. I invite everybody to imagine the days when her summar h/w is at it's maximum. ;-)</p>

<p>Neither she, nor I want this year ever repeated.</p>

<p>A.S.A.P.</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>But then it means she would have a year without math at all? How is that viewed by adcoms? Many of them want 4 years of math even more than 4 years of science. Also, thinking about some ways to connect her music and language passions, my D has been considering to explore such areas as linguistics and cognitive science which might have something to do with math but nothing to do with chem ... And in general, as we have heard, Stats is somewhat the most "humanities-related" part of math. So, my D is convinced that she needs Stats much more than any of lab sciences.</p>

<p>momrath,</p>

<p>"If your daughter is headed toward a conservatory then I would think that the lab science would be even less significant."</p>

<p>The problem is, right now she is not sure. She is thinking about some colleges with the strong music programs, some of which are conservatory-type and need audition. BTW, that's also the reason for her trying to lighten-up her next year's workload - in case she'll need to prepare for auditions. </p>

<p>OTOH, being unsure of her music abilities, she also considers some academically strong university with the good music options without auditions - in case she wouldn't be able to pass any. So, probably she needs to have competitive enough academic stats.</p>

<p>And the main problem is - although she will need to make her final choice of colleges by the fall of senior year, she needs to choose her senior classes this month. :-)</p>

<p>menloparkmom,</p>

<p>"see if the outside language course at the CC can be shown on her HS transcript.</p>

<p>Yes, it will be shown, it's always the case with her school's students taking academic classes at the local cc.</p>

<p>"not take outside music theory classes INSTEAD of rigorous academic classes offered by her HS"</p>

<p>No, she doesn't have such an intention at h/s (she was thinking about it last year after finishing that AP Music Theory class at her school, but decided it's unrealistic).</p>

<p>calmom,</p>

<p>"My daughter's college choices all share strong programs in slavic languages"</p>

<p>If not a big secret ;-), which colleges are that? (It's one of the features my D seeks in colleges, too).</p>