I have seen some discussion of this before, but I feel like each year I hear from more schools and people that they truly don’t need to send them. Well, it’s time to send in scores so we need to make a final decision.
Some of the schools’ websites state:
School 1: SAT 2 scores not required
School 2: SAT Subject tests are optional
School 3: Although not required, you may submit supplemental scores from AP, IB or SAT Subject tests if you think they are a good reflection of your mastery of the material.
School 4: SAT Subject tests are not required. - I feel like I asked about this at the info presentation and they said something about sending if they are strong, that they can’t “unsee” something
School 5: SAT II subject exams are encouraged but not required
Here are the scores. For SAT 1: Math 800, Reading 760
SAT2 Math: 780
SAT2 US history: 770
Anyone have any insights, particularly from speaking to admissions counselors or others in the know?
Thanks!
I 100% disagree. Here’s what I wrote on another thread:
"Really depends on the college, very few require or even recommend SAT II subject tests. I would be reluctant to send any subject tests as the 1560 rocks!
With that said. I think the SAT II Math 780 hurts you as its only 69th percentile while the 800 from the SAT I is the best you can do and you achieved it.
I would possiblly keep the 770 in US History as its 89th percentile. Below is the chart for all tests:"
Why would you invalidate a perfect 800 SAT I Math score with a 69th percentile one? If the subject test score doesn’t help you, why submit it? Makes no sense to me…
I don’t think I’d bother for the first 4 schools. I agree that that it’s a shame to take away from that perfect SAT I Math score. Not sure about school #5 without knowing which school it is. Sometimes “encouraged” means they want unless you can’t afford to take them.
agree with mom of senior: anything above a 750 is sendable anywhere, with the possible exception of Caltech.
And to socaldad: why do you think a 780 ‘invalidates’ a 800? I disagree that a 780 on a more rigorous & broader test which covers 4 years of HS math, makes a 800 (which covers ~2+ years of HS math) look bad somehow. Just makes no sense to me.
(hint: colleges don’t care about the percentiles as they don’t report on them.)
OP: send 'em all or don’t send, as test scores will not be the item that gets you admitted, or not. Once a college admin sees that your test scores ‘rock’, they go on to the other items of your app.
Because for every 100 SAT Math II test takers, 31 are scoring higher than you. You realize these are the students you are competing against in college admissions, right?
Secondly, of course the percentile matters its a way to gauge how difficult the test is and separates the great test takers from the good ones. 780 is not a great score as an SAT Math II 800 is “only” 78th percentile,. Said another way, 10,000’s of test takers are getting an 800 and you are suggesting go ahead submit the 780? The mean is almost 700 for Math II as the test takers are some of the best math students in the US and world. Over 140,000 take Math II each year.
The common wisdom is if the score helps your application, submit it, if it does not help (or could possibly hurt your score), then do not submit. Seems like common-sense is not so common…
I’m going to kinda sorta have to agree with socaldad2002, but not to the extent that the 780 “invalidates” the 800.
First, the Math Level 2 subject test covers a higher level of math IIRC. From memory, since it was a couple years ago when helped my kid, the math portion of the SAT covers thru Algebra 2. The Math Level 2 subject test covers thru Pre-Calc.
For the SAT, an 800 likely means the student got 0-2 wrong answers. With the math curve lately, I think it’s more like 0 or maybe 1 wrong answer.
For the Math Level 2 subject test, a student can get a raw score of 43 (depends on curve) and still score an 800. A raw score of 43 means some combination of incorrect and omitted answers. But if you earned an 800 on the Math Level 2 subject test, then the college has no idea if the student scored 43/50 or 50/50. The raw score is not provided to the college.
However, if the student scored an 780 on the Math Level 2 subject test, then the college will certainly know the student had a raw score of 41/50 (depends on the curve). There are different curves for these tests, so the numbers can change slightly from test to test.
I guess, for me, sending the score would depend on the college and the major sought by the student. Sending a 780 probably wouldn’t matter for most schools. CalTech, MIT or similar level CS/Engineering/Math/STEM program, I’d be a bit hesitant. But still a great score.
Having said all that, the folks on this thread are all smart and experienced, so I’d strongly value their opinions, especially @Gumbymom who has helped moi on an occasion or two.
It is important to understand that for several subjects, the percentiles are depressed because so few colleges request Subject Tests, that the ones that do are the ultra selective ones. As a result, it is the high achieving kids taking the tests. No AO is sitting on the floor cross-referencing scores with percentiles. Unless the kid is applying to MIT or Caltech were most applicants have an 800 on M2, a 780 is not the reason the kid gets rejected, if that happens.
Sigh. There is no invalidation.
Anyway, the scores are great.I would send. I am of the opinion that they will not hurt, and may help. They may, in the end, be neutral. But by not sending, you may always wonder “What if.”
The math 2 subject tests covers a few things like matrices that some students may never have seen before. It’s a much harder and test and it’s a self-selected group of students who take it. I would absolutely send those scores to every school he applies to. There’s no way they are going to hurt him.
OP here. I am visiting Cornell today. At a Dyson presentation, I asked the presenter this question. He said if scores are over 750, send them. I said even if SAT is higher and he said if it’s Math 2 over 750 to send it. So that’s one data point!
Yes, M2 has a more generous by design. HS Geom and Alg II is rather similar. PreCalc is not; it covers a whole bunch of things and it depends on your HS on what it covers and when it covers it. (There was some item covers on M2 that my son had not seen before when he took the test in May, and that was bcos his HS covered that item in Calc.)
Of course, since many applicants to such schools do score an 800, not sending anything maybe noted (and perhaps not in a good way).
Yes, and no. The M2 800 is only one element in the application (and pales in comparison to the transcript), and if that student also has a 3.6 GPA, they are not competing in the applicant pool (without a big hook). Caltech even has extremely high Verbal scores, so a 800-m and a low VR is not that competitive…
And since there is absolutely zero evidence that Adcoms care about percentiles, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
“And to socaldad: why do you think a 780 ‘invalidates’ a 800? I disagree that a 780 on a more rigorous & broader test which covers 4 years of HS math, makes a 800 (which covers ~2+ years of HS math) look bad somehow. Just makes no sense to me.”
Invalidates and look bad may be a exaggerating it, but it is debatable at the MIT’s of the world if a 780 shows mastery in math. You’d have to retake, and most do.
ok but MIT’s 25% for math is 780, 75% is 800, so if you got a 740, how could you not look at those numbers and take it again. And I’m not totally sure I buy the 1400 vs 1600 argument, that’s a big difference.
Nobody, again 0% has an SAT math score below 700, according to MIT’s CDS, and only 13% have a verbal below 700. Very few people at MIT have 1400, probably 1-2%, the majority of that campus has over 1500. MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech and others know the sat math and math 2 cannot show them who the best math students are, that’s they why they ask for AMC and AIME scores.
Regardless, OP has given no indication that kid is targeting MIT or Caltech (and based on her other threads, the kid is not), so let’s move on from debating Subject Test scores for these colleges that are clearly outliers.
Back when the original blog post was written there were alot more scores under 750. I don’t think kids have gotten smarter - I think they’ve convinced themselves they have to keep taking these tests until they get an 800. I’d take a 740 again too. But a 760? That is one careless mistake on many tests. If you have a 5 on the BC Calculus exam and have qualified for the AIME - I sure wouldn’t retake.
