Shooting Too Low?

College Search & Selection
21

@RookieCollegeMom – When you say that your D “gets annoyed at the kids who don’t pay attention, which slows down the class. She has very little patience for them,” to me its send up a big red flag with respect to aiming low. Don’t assume that “kids who go to college want to be there.” Many are not necessarily there for the academics alone. Without knowing your daughter’s SAT/ACT scores, it’s hard to know what would constitute “aiming low” or “aiming high” or where she might qualify for merit.

Are there geographic considerations in play?

Also, your D might want to look at some of the women’s colleges (e.g., Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke). They often offer merit aid (Wellesley, Smith, and Barnard do not; Mt. Holyoke and Bryn Mawr do; if the west coast is an option, consider Scripps). Other midwestern schools like Kenyon, Grinnell (already mentioned), and Oberlin give merit. Also look at schools like Dickinson and Skidmore.

22

My daughter had issues with kids in her engineering program not paying attention in class, playing on phones or other devices, or just not showing up at all. One of her friends was always on her phone in Calc 2 and Chem because she’d already taken those classes as AP. Not surprising, she left school by Halloween, never to return.

My kids also don’t miss class but many of their friends do. ALL the time. I don’t think it has to do with aiming high or low.

23

I taught as an adjunct at a very middling private school as a test-drive after a “forced retirement.” My class had two really good students, 10 students who really struggled with the material (and for whom I had to “downsize” the lectures), and another 10 who clearly wanted to get away with murder as far as doing the work. I really felt for those two really great, smart students. Make sure that kids are there for “right reasons.”

24

Here’s the thing, schools’ tiers are not a guaranteed reflection of the quality of the undergraduate experience. In fact, some very highly ranked schools are known to be far less than ideal. Caltech is a great example. Concentrate on fit, regardless of tier, unless, as others have said, merit is important. Then, intentionally focus on schools where her stats are better than their averages. It helps boost their rankings. Good luck.

25

This is exactly why my daughter sat in on classes before making a final decision about her school. Now, she would probably tell you that there is a definite spread in student capability. Its not hard to find other bright, hard working, engaged kids but there are plenty who are there and don’t want to be, or would rather be anywhere else. There are a lot more kids struggling to keep up then you would probably find at a top tier school. I don’t think D feels held back, but its certainly not a class full of tippy top students. On the other hand, the great professors and the other kids who are at her level are plenty to keep her happy.

26

Aiming at schools where you’ll be in the top 25% is great for merit-chasing. Look at the schools that have an honors program in particular where your D will take some classes with others of the same academic level. It would be difficult to comment on specific schools before you have some test results but once you do come back and many of us that have done the merit chase can make suggestions.

27

Thank you everyone - you are great! I was struggling over finding the right balance of rigor, fit, and cost!

28

Expect to hear a lot of “but your student could do so much better!”. I know my kids did. I always told them that if better = lots of debt, then it’s not better. They thrived in their chosen schools. D’s honors program was a bit more active than S’s, but they both enjoyed the special classes they were able to take, and D went on a lot of great outings with her program. And D made Phi Beta Kappa, S made Tau Beta Pi, which they wouldn’t have done if they weren’t in the top percentage of their schools.

I do agree there can be too low, although sometimes economic realities mean taking what you can afford. But if you have the luxury of shopping around for merit aid, why not? There are certain situations where prestige matters, but for most average Janes, it’s more about earning the degree and what you put into that journey than it is about where you earned the degree from. Paying tens of thousands more to move up a tier in rankings is a personal decision, but in our family we went for solid fit and affordable, and it seems to have worked out wonderfully.

29

I will throw my two cents in about Bucknell… My son graduated from Bucknell two years ago, and had the time of life. He majored in Mechanical Engineering and never joined a fraternity. We are in the lower to middle income class. My son found a great group of life long friends and never felt like his financial standing was an issue. Of course, there were several students who suffered from the entitlement syndrome, but there were plenty of friendly students to more then make up for them. Good luck with your search!

30

Great to hear that about Bucknell - we drove thru campus on our Susquehanna visit. The size appealed to me (a little larger than the 2000 size we’ve been looking at; my D has no idea what she is interested in so I thought larger may give her some more options.) I think she is going to apply, see if she gets in and we can afford and if so, then do an official visit.

I don’t want to feel like I am “short changing” her by not looking at some higher level school (if we can afford them).

And I wonder how these 17/18 year olds are deciding which schools are a fit for them - are they really looking at the right things (because it is not like any of the kids on our tours asked questions!) or was it just the beautiful weather and witty tour guide that won them over?

31

Based on your repeated concerns about not “shortchanging” your daughter— and her reaction to non- motivated kids- look at some more selective schools where her scores are in the middle 50%. Why not? Looking at them does not mean she need to apply to them and, even if she applies and is acepted, it does not mean she needs to go to them if there is a better fit or unbeatable deal elsewhere.

The more selective schools tend to be LESS “white, rich, and entitled” (your concerns) than schools that are still selective but a little less selective- because they have endowments that allow them to bring in kids who are not wealthy and give them generous need-based aid. Look at the common data sets to see this info for the schools you are considering to see the balance of backgrounds at each school.

Look for a balance of strong academics and fit. Fit is important, and there is no reason she needs to apply to or attend the most selective college that will admit her if she feels more “at home” at a slightly less selective college. But why not have her look and decide for herself?

It sounds like she might like to look at Dickinson or Muhlenberg (you seem to like Pennsylvania, and these sound like a match for her interests; if she does not like frats, these are less fratty than Bucknell or Gettysburg, and she may like the inclusive cultures of these colleges more). Also, Lafayette and Frankin &Marshall do have frats, but have less of an overwhelming frat culture than B and G. But Dickinson is sounding like a really good fit…

And… based on her APs and GPA, and depending on her SAT… the intellectual engagement, academic prowess, diversity, and welcoming inclusive culture of Haverford and Swarthmore may sing to her. She will not get merit aid there— but any true financial aid may be met. Run the net price calculator on each college’s website to get an idea of what you would pay. If you would not be willing to pay it, don’t visit. If you are willing to pay it, go for the visit.

Or Bryn Mawr, if she likes women’s colleges?

Ursinus or Allegheny might be good schools to explore that she should get into fairly easily but may have more kids like her than Lynchburg and Juniata. But why not also look at a Dickinson, Muhlenberg, Haverford, or Swarthmore?

You also might extend your search beyond Pennsylvania.

32

@eyemgh Can you elaborate on the CalTech comment?

33

If you are putting Muhlenberg and Dickenson on the list, I would also suggest Skidmore if it hasn’t already been mentioned.

34

IMHO, a big school where your kid is an extreme outlier might be a better academic fit than a small school where your kid is an extreme outlier. For my kid, who feels like her AP classmates are a good fit, but gets frustrated with the people who don’t care in her Honors classes, and who is looking at smaller schools, I used “75th percentile composite ACT not more than 3 points below her score” as the cutoff in narrowing down the list.

I am very much Team Women’s Colleges, on the grounds that you get a similarly qualified student body with higher odds of admission. But my kid also sees women’s colleges as a good fit for her; they certainly aren’t the right choice for everyone.

35

@whataboutcollege, Caltech is well known for being a brutal undergraduate experience. No university further exemplifies the “drinking from a fire hose” description. Not one, but two retired Caltech/JPL professors advised my son not to apply. They were both ecstatic about the PhD program, but in the words of one “Caltech is not an undergraduate institution.” Paraphrasing an alumnus, “depression and self loathing is commonplace. I’m surprised the suicide rate is not higher.”

The take home message for anyone looking at schools, is that there’s FAR more to the story of every school that their ranking. Every school, I mean EVERY school has warts. You need to know how they will impact you. You also need to know that, no matter what your intended major, there are LOTS of good options.

36

This may be the reason your D seems to be “aiming low”. Whether intentional or not, she is smart to fall in love with good, solid match and safety schools. If her SAT scores turn out great, you might see her considering more competitive admissions. In the meantime, she has taken a low stress route to discover the kinds of schools that she likes. If she wants, it will be easy to find similar schools in the next tiers up.

37

Fortunately, my eldest was not concerned with rankings and all that. My suggestion is to show your child a variety of schools based on size; public versus private; and city, suburburn and rural. They tend to be consistent with what they like when viewing schools. To be honest my child initially wanted to be a big fish then in the spring of senior year opted for being the small fish. Allow for some variety that meet your financial needs in case they have change in heart in the process.

38

Some kids “shoot low” because they feel fragile about being rejected. This is especially true of kids who may not have yet experienced much rejection. It might be worthwhile to have a conversation about this with your D – how she feels about putting herself out there – so that her strategy can accommodate that. It may be that she doesn’t mind being rejected by Harvard but DOES mind having people know that she was rejected by Harvard, for example, in which case you two can work to ensure that her application process is private. Or she may just feel terrible being rejected period.

There are kids who prefer to be the big fish in the small pond – who run harder at the front of the pack – while there are others who set their pace according to those around them. I would suggest that she give serious thought to where/how peers matter. IME, in a setting in which content is delivered in large lectures, the pace might be a bit slower if it is set for a “slower” crowd, but this may be less of a problem than being in a smaller class of 15-20 in which participation is key and the quality of engagement drives the quality of the classroom experience. Sitting in on classes will be important for your D. DS was looking only at small LACs and found that he had some great experiences at less selective schools and some pretty ho-hum ones at higher rated ones. While some of this may have just been luck of the draw, it was really important for him to be at a school where the students showed up prepared and engaged.

If your D is worried about “snooty” peers, this can happen at both highly rated schools and ones that are less so. She may want to look at things like whether there is Greek life (which can formalize cliques), whether the school is in an urban area (in which case students with money can choose to participate in different, more expensive, local activities), and other things like whether everyone has the same eating plan, whether there is an activity fee included in everyone’s tuition, % of students with FA, and other things that indicate accessibility and inclusion.

But overall, I don’t like the idea of rating schools as “lesser” or assuming that a kid is “aiming too low”… Fit works in a number of ways, and your D will need to find hers. As a parent, you can help her explore a number of options fully before dismissing any.

39

Actually…I am the one thinking about “shooting too low”! She hasn’t said anything. And I am the one who found Juniata (CTCL) and Susquehanna (neighbor behind us graduated from there).

I am not sure how aware/thinking she yet on different “levels” of schools. She liked Lynchburg when she was in 8th grade when we visited for her sister. So that my be playing into it.

Many months ago, I suggested a school and she poo-pooed it because the avg GPA was like a B or something (I don’t remember exactly what). Ahh…so is Lynchburg’s! So she may not have put 2 and 2 together yet.

I expect as she enters her senior year this fall, the college counselor at her school and guidance counselors, etc will be talking more about colleges and she may start (or have to start!) thinking about it more.

It sounds like visiting and sitting in on classes is the best option to really get a feel/vibe for a school.

I am the only one over-thinking all this college stuff so far, not her :slight_smile:

Thanks all!

40

“Shooting too low” is all subjective until you have a budget. We made our budget the COA at our in-state flagship, sounds like that is where you might be as well ? In reality, that budget was still going to require maximum student loans, two well-paying summer jobs every summer for D (which is pretty much her MO anyways) and parent plus loans on my part. We hunted for merit and were very happy to find several schools coming in under that number. Most were less selective but also different…her flagship is UMass Amherst…she really wanted an LAC regardless of rankings. She ended up at a school that was a low match/safety at the time, now would be a solid match four years later. More importantly, as a rising senior, the “fit” was a perfect choice for all the right reasons – academics, socially, location and price.