<p>"mature, sincere, monogamous, non-controlling male"</p>
<p>You just described my husband. :)</p>
<p>Citation X - I do think you are wrong. Evolutionary biology is a very, very imprecise "science;" there is little that we know about the social structures of early mankind and even less that we can extrapolate with any certainty. One of the big things that every single person misses is that chance of pregnancy and passing along genes is perfectly symmetrical between the sexes. Everyone seems to assume that women get pregnant more often than men get women pregnant. Yes, it's nonsense. Realise that the chance of a man getting a woman pregnant is equal to the chance of her getting pregnant, and most evolutionary biology theories of behaviour fall apart.</p>
<p>You can take the evidence any way you want to - ultimately, the interpretation says a lot about the person making the interpretation and very little about evolution. There's also the theory that women want monogamous men because they don't want to share resources with other women's children. There's the theory that men want monogamous women because they want to know who fathered the kids. The logical extension of your theory is that men want promiscuous women, because those women have the best chance of passing on their genes. </p>
<p>I've dated a bunch of jerks, most of whom acted like perfectly respectable men. I've chucked men after a first date because I got the feeling that they were less than civilised. I've never wanted the BMOC type - it just doesn't appeal. More importantly, there's very little chemistry with the jerks, even the ones that I dated. Men seem to think that there's two types of men - alpha males who run around and treat women like crap, or boring civilised males who constantly finish last. Not true at all. There's something very attractive about a man who has the self-control and the inner kindness to be civilised, but actively chose that route - who recognizes that he can choose how to act and the type of person he wants to be. It's called moral grounding and inner strength. Jerks lack both.</p>
<p>Women can be more than their genes, and evolution is not perfect nor perfected - even if your theory is correct, not all women will be affected. Ultimately, though, when you make such assertions with no empirical evidence, you set up a situtation when you refuse to acknowledge anything to the contrary. I do know women who are attracted to jerks. They tend to be a lower quality of woman - personally, I think they are attracted to something like themselves or want a man that they can dominate by playing the moral superiourity card. </p>
<p>Geez, Jason, why not read my previous posts? Personally, I actually like reciprocating - very happy when I'm in a relationship where there's enough give-and-take to do that. I do, by the way, plan and pay for dates into the relationship. I do find lame excuses to pay - "This was my idea, please let me pay," or "Please, you know how much I enjoy introducing people to food - it doesn't count if you pay." My efforts are usually rewarded with being dumped because I'm not pretty or I don't put out or he's cheating on me with a friend.</p>
<p>PS - SweetNY, you just described a lot of husbands! :) I think that Citation is describing a lot of guys in high school who date - his theory falls apart by the early to mid twenties.</p>
<p>True Athena :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
My efforts are usually rewarded with being dumped because I'm not pretty or I don't put out or he's cheating on me with a friend.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that's fairly unrelated to your paying, then. He's an arse. Even if you let him pay (and believe me, some arses will), he'd still be an arse.</p>
<p>Think of the nice guys. We're out there. We're just either gay or taken... :p</p>
<p>The guy should pay Date 1, any special dinners, anything he asks her to...other than that split</p>
<p>If a guy doesn't even offer to pay for the first day....I'm sort of like...cheap-o.</p>
<p>I still don't get it. Why isn't it cheap-o for the woman not to pay? I find the acceptance of the double standard a bit irksome.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Think of the nice guys. We're out there. We're just either gay or taken...
[/quote]
Like pumpkins on Halloween - either taken or had their heads scraped out with a spoon. ;)</p>
<p>To be serious, though, men who pay are at least somewhat invested in having a relationship with the girl. It's a low hurdle, but having that hurdle eliminates the schmucks who are the emotional equivalent of a lame horse. I'm not asking all the dinners - just asking the first one. And, being vegetarian, caring enough to take me somewhere that I can eat. </p>
<p>I'm just too old to keep trying with men who do not try to put something into the relationship as well.</p>
<p>What do you put into the relationship, ariesathena? And beyond that, how do you make your assets immediately noticeable to the guy? Seeing how you equate paying with some level of interest (I agree, somewhat), I doubt a guy could wait a couple of dates to pay for you, right? What do you do to make yourself seem like the type of girl who deserves his time, effort, energy, and money?</p>
<p>That begs the question, Jason... what should a girl do? Very sadly, men seem to equate snobbiness and high-maintenance status with being desireable. I've never had that inclination, so many men (the "I want what I can't have" brigade) don't think I'm worth time and effort. Then there's another class of men who don't think that women are worth time and effort unless they put out, so I flunk that one as well. </p>
<p>So Jason, what should women do to make their "assets" immediately noticable? What qualities make women worth time and effort and money?</p>
<p>Pardon the cynicism, but my better qualities get me nowhere in the dating world. Same with some of my friends - the best among them have the hardest time. Men don't want sweet, caring, smart and ambitious women - they seem to want high-maintenance, slutty, "smart but not as smart" women. It's beyond irritating.</p>
<p>In some ways, though, it's a moot point. If you want to date me, then I damn well better be worth your time. Otherwise, you're wasting mine.</p>
<p>Jason, in my experience women pay a lot of money for clothes, makeup, accesories, perfume, and shoes all so they can impress their dates. They take endless amounts of time getting ready only to trot themselves around in the most uncomfortable but cute outfits. That is what they do to show the guy that they are interested. The cost of the dinner usually pales in comparison to the cost of the outfit.</p>
<p><em>Men don't want sweet, caring, smart and ambitious women - they seem to want high-maintenance, slutty, "smart but not as smart" women. It's beyond irritating.</em></p>
<p>Say what? It's the other way around. Men are looking for sweet, caring, smart, ambitious women while they are in their 20s, but guess what most women their age want: a good time with Biker Bruno. They want the 'bad boys', the 'big spenders', intelligence doesn't matter, as long as they give them a good time. It's only when most women get older (read, biological clock in its last ticks), that they decide "hey, those geeks I shunned earlier are doing pretty well for themselves, wonder if they'll be willing to marry myself and my 2 kids (fathered by two separate men, nonetheless)". Sadly, many of those "former geeks" unwittingly take on the woman and all her luggage, only to lose most of what they have when she divorces him after about a year (no-fault divorce anyone?), but more and more men are wising up, and saying no to them and to marriage in general, the same way they were told 'NO!' before the homecoming dance. </p>
<p>I've known this truth for quite sometime now, and oddly enough, there was a comic in this last Sundays paper I had that addressed this same issue, but darn it! I can't remember the name. I'll describe it to you the best I can remember (need to go look for it and cut it out if I can remember to later on):</p>
<p><em>A guy and a girl are sitting at a coffee shop.</em>
Girl: "Wow, that waitress was really flirting with you."
Guy: "What're you talking about? She probably wasn't..."
Girl: "Yes she was, its just not fair! While I have to deal with crows feet and extra baggage, you're only <em>improving</em> and having the time of your life!"
Guy: "Well, its kinda fair actually, I mean, how was your freshman year of high school?"
Girl: "Oh! It was great! I was so happy to be able to day some older men instead of one of those geeky guys my age!"<br>
<em>beat</em>
Girl: "What, didn't you have a good time?"
Guy: "I was one of those 'geeky guys' your age"
<em>waitress comes by, smiling to the man, saying 'more coffee sir?', the man holds his cup up and smiles back</em>
Girl: "It's not the SAME!"</p>
<p>...except I like the geeky guys. As for money -geez, I dated a bunch of starving gents this summer. Hell, we were all starving, working in DC doing things we are incredibly passionate about for little or no money... but hyper-educated and doing what we love. I think my big problem was that I dated a bunch of guys in a row who were all really passoinate about free trade, so I was thinking... wow, deja vu. Then more deja vu. Said intellectual discussions were over coffee or $3 happy hour specials that were conducive to intern budgets (they still offered to pay). Yeah, those are the guys that I hang around with and date. Hence the fact that they bought smoothies or a drink, not dinner. </p>
<p>Don't find women like that? Try finding college grads. Trust me, elite schools graduate hundreds of women who are ambitious and talented but cannot seem to find men who are interested in them. They aren't running about getting knocked up or looking for a man to support them. They are complaining because the 25-year-old guys are chasing sorority chicks (true stories - yes, multiple!) who are barely old enough to drink. </p>
<p>As for the comic... in freshman year of high school, all of the guys treated me like crap because I studied too much, made better grades, and had never been kissed. There was a great rumour running about that I was a lesbian. So no, it's not the same. :p</p>
<p>haha, on the same tangent, my english teachers advocates the slogan for recruitment to my school (we go to a magnet school):
"and forget having a date for the prom if you go anywhere else"</p>
<p>Sweetny, If she really wants to impress me, she could pick up the tab for dinner as well, LOL! </p>
<p>But seriously, split the bill on a first date. Just becuase she chose to do what you planned doesn't mean you should play for the whole thing. Now if it turns into something more serious, go ahead and pay for her more often but never on a first date. there's always the chance that the date will suck you'll be like "man, I can't believe I wasted 25 dollars"- but it'd suck even more if you spent 50!</p>
<p>Then take her out for coffee and pay $5. :) Get to know her before you date her - don't waste her time if you're not interested. I'm a busy person... I don't want to spend my time on a date with someone who is lukewarm about me.</p>
<p>If you expect a woman to split the tab, then you really MUST take her somewhere within her budget. It's completely rude to spend people's money for them. I doubt that you would like a date with a woman who, conscious of her budget, ordered only a water and a side salad. I would not do the inviting to a restaurant and expect that the man pay even his 1/2 (and I do invite after the first few dates), regardless of his financial circumstances. </p>
<p>Dates treat each other. Friends split the tab.</p>
<p>How about taking someone on a hike to a favorite and important locale? Or going to a museum to see an exhibit?</p>
<p>I can think of tons of ways to have a first date that don't require money but also let a person express oneself in a nice way.</p>
<p>Even if the girl is someone I know well, I still wouldn't pay for them on a first date, especially if it was over Coffee and a Conversation. I have a hard time believing some one can't afford a measly $3.00 for caramel frap. </p>
<p>I haven't been on a first date in about 2 and a half years since I just got out of a long term relationship and I never thought to consider the chicks budget (my ex and I are both pretty wealthy.) Now if I was out with a girl who honestly didn't bring enough money with her to buy a decent meal (sometimes girls will say they dont have money to see if a guy will pay for them) then I would pick up the whole tab (and playfully tease the hell out of her for the rest of the night :P) </p>
<p>You bring up a good point since dinner dates can run a little expensive. I'll have to remember to push that date back a little further with the next girl, lol.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How about taking someone on a hike to a favorite and important locale? Or going to a museum to see an exhibit?</p>
<p>I can think of tons of ways to have a first date that don't require money but also let a person express oneself in a nice way.
[/quote]
As I've stated too many times to count, I don't care how much a guy spends on me - but it's a date and he's treating. Museum? Awesome. I love museums. Pick her up at her dorm room door and walk with her to the Metro stop. I love hiking. Pack a picnic lunch or bring some chocolate to surprise her. Cook dinner. Just please make it a freakin' DATE!</p>
<p>GoldenJet - you can probably guess whether or not a girl has the money to spend on a dinner out - and you don't want a nice girl to turn down the dinner date because she can't pay. The $3 coffee isn't because she can't pay - it's because it's really sad if a guy can't even make that gesture. (To me, if a guy asks out to coffee and goes Dutch, we're friends. And I don't kiss my friends. And I don't mind dating people exclusively when I have male friends.)</p>
<p>I'm also a fan of finding out whether or not girls are only using you for the nice meals. As for the money issue, she might have enough money to buy a decent meal, but that might be her grocery budget for the week, so, if you really don't plan to pay, please be conscientious of this fact. (This is another, practical reason why the person asking should treat. It is much easier to be upfront with your friends about money issues - I've done it and had friends do it - but difficult when you're not sure if it's a date. When I was earning a nice salary, I would often pay for my girlfriends. They pay for me now when I'm in school.) So invite her out for pizza and soda if you're getting to know her. Grab sandwiches to go and walk around a park.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How about taking someone on a hike to a favorite and important locale? Or going to a museum to see an exhibit?</p>
<p>I can think of tons of ways to have a first date that don't require money but also let a person express oneself in a nice way.
[/quote]
As I've stated too many times to count, I don't care how much a guy spends on me - but it's a date and he's treating. Museum? Awesome. I love museums. Pick her up at her dorm room door and walk with her to the Metro stop. I love hiking. Pack a picnic lunch or bring some chocolate to surprise her. Cook dinner. Just please make it a freakin' DATE!</p>
<p>GoldenJet - you can probably guess whether or not a girl has the money to spend on a dinner out - and you don't want a nice girl to turn down the dinner date because she can't pay. The $3 coffee isn't because she can't pay - it's because it's really sad if a guy can't even make that gesture. (To me, if a guy asks out to coffee and goes Dutch, we're friends. And I don't kiss my friends. And I don't mind dating people exclusively when I have male friends.)</p>
<p>I'm also a fan of finding out whether or not girls are only using you for the nice meals. As for the money issue, she might have enough money to buy a decent meal, but that might be her grocery budget for the week, so, if you really don't plan to pay, please be conscientious of this fact. (This is another, practical reason why the person asking should treat. It is much easier to be upfront with your friends about money issues - I've done it and had friends do it - but difficult when you're not sure if it's a date. When I was earning a nice salary, I would often pay for my girlfriends. They pay for me now when I'm in school.) So invite her out for pizza and soda if you're getting to know her. Grab sandwiches to go and walk around a park.</p>