<p>Hunt’s response well lays out the competing policy considerations. It’s possible, certainly, that different colleges resolve those issues in different ways. As to admission, many hundreds of colleges are essentially (formally or in practice) open-admission institutions, so that paying for college is the only barrier to entry. Alas, some of those same colleges have very poor financial aid, even though they often have very low list prices.</p>
<p>Socioeconomic AA is better than race AA, but I think Affirmative Action should also consider educational level of parents too. I’m Asian and lower middle class (thus socioeconomic AA would help me), but my parents both have MDs so they obviously raised me in a way that’s different from how parents who haven’t been to college would.</p>
<p>Some people cannot see what they don’t want to see. The 1995 data shows that on the average white making less than 10K outscores average black making more than 70K.</p>
<p>I grew up with the mentality that people are people regardless of race, gender, income or political affiliation. I lived in St. Paul, MN and attended an inner-city church in MPLS. I grew up with friends who were Black, Asian and Hispanic and never thought of them any differently than myself…I am white–and according to my dad, part Eskimo, specifically Aleut. This was on my mom’s side of the family and she died when I was 3 years old; he remarried and then didn’t keep in close touch with my mom’s family. My dad died when I was 28, so any connection to info. he had is also GONE. If the Eskimo thing is true, and I have no reason to think not, then my children also are part Aleut. I have no way to prove it and therefore, my daughter couldn’t check a “minority” block on the college app.</p>
<p>In the late 1970s my parents decided to open our home to a family of Vietnamese refugees. We had six extra people living in our home for 22 months. My parents were POOR, too. We didn’t have any extras…I distinctly remember that one Christmas my gift from my parents was a pair of mittens. Living in MN, this was not exactly a luxury! :)</p>
<p>As an adult, my best friend for many years was a black woman. She would taunt me about my “white-ness” and occasionally call me black racial slurs…all in fun. Coincidentally, her husband made five times as much money per year as mine (some years more than 5x as much–she is a very open person! :)).</p>
<p>As it relates to college admissions:</p>
<p>My daughter took the SAT and Subject Tests only one time each and got a 2380, 750 and 760. She is a NM finalist who won a $2,500 scholarship from the NM corp. She is also a semi-finalist in the US Dept. of Ed. Presidential Scholar Program. She was accepted at Wellesley, Vassar and Middlebury, but waitlisted at Yale which was the only school she applied to through the QuestBridge Match Program. (QuestBridge tries to match low-income high achieving students with top-tier schools. We do not feel poor; while many have much more than we do, we have so much more than others and have all that we truly NEED).</p>
<p>Her profile:</p>
<p>[thread]607960[/thread]</p>
<p>Because of the perception I had about QuestBridge, I thought she had a fairly good chance at admission at Yale b/c not many “low income” students ever get her scores–in fact not many students of any income level ever get her scores. In addition, I talked to the regional Yale rep. in Dec. after she was not “matched” through QB. After looking at her file, he told me that she was excellent academically, had very strong ECs and that I shouldn’t be disheartened at all as we looked forward to the RD round of acceptances. Yet she was waitlisted.</p>
<p>When she looked at the posts of accepted students on the Yale thread, she was very, very disheartened. It did seem “unfair”. We have so many questions, and will probably never know WHY…as it pertains to the QB group of applicants, was she not underprivileged enough? is her life too stable–not enough hardships? is it because she’s white? would it have made a difference if she could have checked the “eskimo box”? is it because they didn’t like something in her file? It’s hard for me to think they didn’t like something in her file or it seems to me they would have outright rejected her. In the end, because of our faith we believe things happen for a reason. Maybe it just wasn’t meant to be. ???</p>
<p>Yale was her first choice, with Midd. being a very close second. She is going through the waitlist process, with no expectation of acceptance. The last 2+ weeks have been a time of refocusing and moving on with life. Does she still feel a bit sad? I think so. Is she excited about Midd.? Absolutely. I believe college admissions officers have a difficult task in choosing their incoming classes…I choose to believe they do the best they can.</p>
<p>As far as AA, it is good to have intelligent, calm conversations about what needs to be changed. Were “people of color” treated poorly for way, way too long? Without question. Are the poor treated differently than those with more money? Often times. Until the end of time there will be improvements that should be made, but until then, it’s important to treat ALL people with respect and dignity, which, of couse, will not change issues of AA, but will at least make the world a little better place.</p>
<p>Sorry if this is too philosophical…just my perspective on the issue at this point in life! :)</p>
<p>You cannot get blood from a stone, so for all those complaining that schools prefer full pay students. Duh! They are the ones paying the bills and frankly, contributing to endowments. I wonder if there are studies out there that track URM later contributions to their alma maters.</p>
<p>Second. There is a HUGE reason why URM and others get a bonus points added to their SAT scores. There are studies all over the place whether it is lack of access to tutors or prep classes OR that the test itself along with the assumption that blacks WILL do worse than their white peers actually ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.</p>
<p>I honestly think schools do the best they can with what is before them. I do not believe in AA on it’s face value, but as we can see on this board, some people honestly dont see their inherent privilege that society affords them because they are white. While I don’t find it “disgusting” to think that racism is over because we have a black president, I also believe that the day is coming that being black in this country isn’t going to entitle you to a get out of testing card. But the truth is… the demographics as they stand now, the culture has it stands now… is not going to allow for less than some sort of AA.</p>
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<p>Indeed. The score she obtained is quite rare. </p>
<p><a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_2008_composite_cr_m_w.pdf[/url]”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board; </p>
<p>I wonder what else was going on for selection factors at Yale. I don’t have a strong sense of what Yale is looking for under the new management of its admission office.</p>
<p>Ideally, colleges should pick a class that is diverse AND smart, using both class and race to achieve this ideal. I get a bit peeved when people act as if these two are mutually exclusive qualifiers for getting an admissions boost. They needn’t and shouldn’t be. Schools that practice “holistic” admission know this and can figure out how to balance a kid’s background and academics with the likelihood of success on campus to build a class with all types of diversity. </p>
<p>But no one has mentioned that to do this colleges have to have lots of money. Admitting poor kids of any race is expensive. I think this explains, in part, why, all else being equal, schools wills admit the sons and daughters of black surgeons and celebrities —who can pay full freight—over the poor white kid who needs lots of money to attend. Only the colleges with the biggest endowments/richest donors can afford to be need-blind as it is, and even some of them are struggling in this economy to keep up.</p>
<p>Just an FYI:</p>
<p>The debate should be up on [The</a> Miller Center’s debate channel on Youtube](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/user/MCDebates]The”>http://www.youtube.com/user/MCDebates). The stream was quite choppy, which might be an indication of interest.</p>
<p>Our office was offered our own cache of tickets, but with a huge open house starting yesterday and running through tomorrow, most of us were watching from home. A colleague who was able to go said that after the debate (which was only an hour), there was an extra hour of discussion which included the crowd. I hope that was recorded, too!</p>
<p>EDIT: [Links</a> to watch the debate in a few media players are on the Miller Center site](<a href=“http://millercenter.org/public/debates/affirmative-action]Links”>http://millercenter.org/public/debates/affirmative-action). I haven’t gotten them to work quite yet.</p>
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</p>
<p>I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but if it was, thank you for pointing this out. I didn’t mean to say I couldn’t see something that I didn’t want to see. I said I was bad at interpreting graphs. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I did not notice that.</p>
<p>This is one thing that bothers me about the AA debate:</p>
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</p>
<p>Do you REALLY think she was rejected simply because she’s a white? You really don’t think there’s another factor there, like someone else had a batter outstanding quality or something else to offer the college? I can guarantee you she didn’t not get in because she is white. AA is flawed for many reasons, but seriously. Students get rejected from Yale even with a 2400 or a 4.0 GPA. Many of them have fantastic teacher recommendations, hundreds of community service hours, intense ECs, a part-time job, 10 AP courses, you name it. If she had gotten rejected from a lower-level school or a state school, you should have a problem with it. But Yale?</p>
<p>I think most of us can all agree that minorities have a significant advantage in admissions, but it’s not fair for a white person to say that they were rejected as a result of AA. I looked at a decisions thread for a school I was deferred from and it was disheartening to see people who were accepted that I felt may not have been as qualified as me, but it’s not just minorities. It’s athletes, legacies, etc. A kid from my school got into Columbia for wrestling with a 1700 on the SAT, mediocre grades and courseload, and other than wrestling, he has no other major EC’s. That, to me, is far more upsetting than seeing an URM getting in with a 1900.</p>
<p>I find the following quite hurtful, actually:</p>
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</p>
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</p>
<p>Obviously I leave room for the fact that some other applicant may have a quality, gift or talent that the admissions officers may have preferred prefer over my daughter’s “package”. </p>
<p>I am also well aware that many get rejected from any number of the top colleges with a 2400 or a 4.0 GPA. I’ve read numerous threads where excessively qualified students get rejected or deferred. I have had many conversations with people about this fact and we always bottom-line it with the reality that there are certainly intangibles involved in the process.</p>
<p>I went to great lengths to say I did NOT know WHY she was deferred, as stated in the following three quotes from my previous post:</p>
<p>
QuestBridge looks for low-income, high achieving students who have overcome obstacles. The application process is extremely lengthy. QB recognizes that low income students do not have access to test prep classes, admission counseling and many other advantages that those with more money have. In fact at the “College Prep” seminar that my daughter was chosen to attend last June (sponsored by QB) one of the bits of random info. the students were told was that at this point in time being “low income” is very desirable to many upper-tier colleges b/c they have come to realize that low income students are a sort of URM, regardless of ethnicity. The only other thing (in addition to the QB seminar) my daughter and I did to prep for SATs was to take sample practice tests and read various books on the college app. process.</p>
<p>The admissions rep. told me that in the match round (in Dec.) they had to choose the “most severely disadvantaged” students. That was his phrase.</p>
<p>
Is it likely that any URM, recruited athlete or legacy would be deferred with the same stats/references/ECs? I don’t know, obviously, but I do wonder.</p>
<p>
Entirely possible…but after talking to the admission officer, I can’t imagine that he has not had many conversations with people who had no realistic chance and couldn’t have given me a response along the lines of, “The applicant pool is extremely competitive. There are no guarantees in the process. While I wish you the best in the process, keep your mind open to other possibilities.” But instead he told me two different times in the conversation, “I would not be disheartened at all if I were you”.</p>
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<p>I don’t have a “problem” with their decision. I share my daughter’s disappointment. She has worked her butt off the last several years, which certainly does NOT mean she’s entitled to attend Yale or any specific college. In fact, I stated</p>
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</p>
<p>I NEVER meant to imply that she was deferred ONLY because she was white, but asked the question in my list of MANY possible factors because of the bigger picture of AA.</p>
<p>I watched the debate last night and found it interesting.</p>
<p>Two points:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I don’t agree minorities have a “significant” advantage in admission. College admission stats for minorities don’t seem to indicate this.</p></li>
<li><p>To me this is a question of a school’s right to choose which factors it wants to consider in deciding which students to admit to a given class.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The SCOTUS has ruled that as long as it’s not a determining factor, race can be considered as part of a holistic evaluation of a candidate. Not that is must be, but rather that it can be. Many people object to this. Yet many of these same people have no problem with a college’s use of legacy preferences. This is the height of hypocrisy. If you want to talk about perceived “unfairness” in college admissions, legacy preferences have a far greater impact on who gets in and who does not. Look at former president George W. Bush as an example. Is there anyone who thinks he got into Yale based on his performance? Did he get in due to his status as a URM? How many other GWBs do you think are admitted each year? More than most would care to admit.</p>
<p>In full disclosure, I am the parent of two children who fall in the URM category. One is a junior at NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts (meaning she had to audition) and the other will attend college next year having been accepted a number of schools including Columbia and UPenn. </p>
<p>My high school senior had very competitive stats: </p>
<p>a) Perfect score on a section of the SAT I
b) ACT score placing her in the 97th percentile
c) AP Scholar designation
d) 4 year letterman and captain of a team sport
e) Co-editor of the school newspaper - 4 year participant
f) Distinguished Delegate at Model UN - 3 year participant
g) National Achievement Scholar
h) Lead roles in performing arts productions- 4 year participant
i) Top 10 class ranking</p>
<p>It’s a shame some white student with less impressive credentials, who received a “legacy” preference, might look down on her thinking she had a “significant advantage in admissions” simply because she is an URM.</p>
<p>The world is not perfect, but all-in-all colleges have a right to admit whomever they want as long as they avoid using non-merit based factors as determinate criteria.</p>
<p>When George W. Bush applied to college, his dad was head of the CIA and his granddad was a senator. He was a legacy, but I think the power in his family was more important.</p>
<p>^
Even if that is the case, collegealum, it does not change the point 2kidsincollege was making, now does it?</p>
<p>No, it doesn’t. And for the record, I don’t agree with preferences for legacy/developmental admit/famous people’s kids.</p>
<p>I just think GWB is a bad example of legacy admission since more powerful factors are at work.</p>
<p>No I don’t, if anyone’s tallying votes.</p>
<p>^
I don’t think it was a bad example at all. You’re speculating that Bush Jr. got into Yale because of his family’s political connections. While this may be true it’s still just a speculation. In my opinion, I think it’s far more likely that money was the determining factor much more than political influence. Most likely, and I have no way to back this up, Bush Sr. made some hefty donations to Yale, probably in the seven figure range. Since there are definitely other Legacies who have been admitted for similar reasons, I think it’s a perfectly acceptable example.</p>
<p>Well, I was not a legacy so I don’t really care. I think if we want to see whether there are a lot of legacies with GWB-like stats, all you would need to do would be to see the avg. SAT scores of legacy admits vs. the normal admits.</p>
<p>I do know that legacy is not nearly as powerful as it was when GWB applied, though.</p>
<p>Jaykoblives:</p>
<p>You bring another factor to the equation which I purposely left out in order to keep my point simple. But more to your point, the influence of family wealth on admissions is beyond hypocrisy when it comes to those who advocate a pure meritocracy.</p>
<p>Buying your way in over those, whose qualifications are in some case exceedingly superior, is indefensible. But I am willing to hear someone else’s viewpoint.</p>
<p>By the way, this is a great debate…keep it going.</p>