Should Affirmative Action Consider Social Class?

<p>Economic background is definitely more important than race. Children who grow up in richer families are surrounded by a more stimulating and beneficial environment as they grow. These conditions are not linked to race, but to income level.</p>

<p>Also, to those stating that richer kids are more advantaged in “test prep”, the average gain from SAT courses is 10 points. Last time I checked, that’s not that much. That aside, test prep is most beneficial for those students who score in the middle range. They might be able to bring their scores up from, say, 580 to a 630. So those who are already getting high scores don’t stand to gain much from anything other than studying from the standard SAT book and vocabulary (which is a life skill).</p>

<p>Also, anyone receiving above a 650 (approximately) can handle the workload at any college, so I am not at all against seeing a minority with 650s admitted over a regular applicant with 700s. When the scores reach a certain point, they don’t matter as much any more. Then, work ethic and knowledge (both measured by grades) become more important.</p>

<p>collegealum314:</p>

<p>I think you missed my central point. Those who get upset about minority preferences are, in many cases, silent on legacy. In terms of collective impact, legacy has a greater more on the makeup of a student body than minority status.</p>

<p>^
2kidsincollege,</p>

<p>This is why I don’t argue for a pure meritocracy. I live in the real world. The average cost of tuition and fees for an Ivy League or top Liberal Arts College is somewhere around 50K annually. And yet, the actual expense to the college is around 80-100K per student. Where are these universities and colleges getting all these extra funds for need-blind admissions, and generous financial aid? And why isn’t tuition even higher? The answer to both, obviously, is a large endowment. What’s a great way to reward contributions to said endowment? A reasonable legacy policy. The truth of the matter is, lower income students (like myself), can afford these top schools, in part, because of legacy policies.</p>

<p>No, I got your point and I agree with you. IMO, you can’t justify legacy admissions if you are against AA.</p>

<p>However, I think a lot of people are against both.</p>

<p>jaykoblives:</p>

<p>Very insightful. I happen to agree with you, because as you stated, we live in the “real world”. Legacy has its place in admissions. I just wish those who attack minority preferences would be intellectually honest and own up to it.</p>

<p>One more point, I have do have one issue with trying to recast “minority” preferences with “social-economic” preferences. Here’s why: Let’s say a school is trying to ensure its student body has a certain degree of diversity to ensure students gain a broad range of perspectives on issues they will face upon entering the “real world”. This was the argument a group of service academy superintendents put forth in their brief to the SCOTUS in the U of M decisions. </p>

<p>In full disclosure I am a graduate of a service academy and can attest to the value of this goal as many of my classmates had very little contact with people of color and quite frankly would have been at a disadvantage had they not has the opportunity to gain “other” perspectives prior to entering their respective services to lead units far more diverse than their respective (academy) student bodies.</p>

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<p>Bush Jr was admitted just before the time Yale started making the transition to the modern style of large-scale meritocratic admissions, with less wealthy and ideologically less conservative students than they had traditionally matriculated. Nicholas Lemann’s article on then-presidential candidate Bush discusses this point and its possible effect on W’s view of 60’s radicalism. </p>

<p>Bush’s SAT scores (better than John Kerry’s) are much more respectable for the Yale of that time than they would be today, and are not bad prior to the recentering. He was not just a legacy from a prominent family, but his father was a legendary alumnus. Decorated WW2 pilot, finished Yale in 2.5 years Phi Beta Kappa, captain of the baseball team. Family power was not necessarily all that relevant in Bush Jr’s admission, the family was already big in Yale terms. Also, Dad wasn’t head of the CIA until the 70’s.</p>

<p>For African American students, being rich or poor socio economically doesn’t have any effect in the academic performance index in California. They’ll continue to be underrepresented in higher education in California because of this…</p>

<p>[Achievement</a> Gap Fact Sheet - State of Education (CA Dept of Education)](<a href=“http://www.cde.ca.gov/eo/in/se/agfactsheet.asp]Achievement”>http://www.cde.ca.gov/eo/in/se/agfactsheet.asp)</p>

<p>collegealum314:</p>

<p>I am not so sure “a lot” of people are against them. When was the last time someone file a law suit against legacy admissions. How many states have had propositions on the ballot against legacy admissions? The level of “outrage” from conservatives is no where near the same. Opposition to minority preferences is shouted from mountain tops; opposition to legacy is whispered at cocktail parties when no one is really paying attention.</p>

<p>I don’t want to pick on GWB, but he clearly wasn’t Yale material. I don’t care what year or era it was.</p>

<p>with legacy admissions the school knows that that particular students parents have a attended that school and hopefully have transferred an understanding of how the school works and what it takes to succeed at the school along with possibly a certain pride in the school and desire to make it better.
however, with AA students you’re admitting them based on them NOT being raised that way and assuming that they have not been raised knowing what is expected of them.
Legacies are a safer bet for the school and if you’re going to consider the backgrounds of your applicants at all (which is the case with AA) you should consider it for all situations not just the ones that make it easier for “those poor kids who haven’t been given all of the gifts the world has to offer”.</p>

<p>wannabe2103:</p>

<p>Your logic is beyond insulting. What makes you think an AA student wasn’t raised in a way where they would not know what it takes to succeed at a given college? Last time I checked, most schools follow a standard formula. Go to class; take notes; do your homework; write good papers; get good grades on your exams; pass the class; pass all the classes your are suppose to; graduate. How does this differ from school to school? I have attended 1 undergrad school and 2 graduate schools. This basic formula worked in all three cases. </p>

<p>Why wouldn’t your theory apply to a non-minority whose parents didn’t attend the school as well?</p>

<p>In the Amicus Brief submitted by Harvard University, Brown
University, the University Of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University,
The University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, and Yale
University in support of the University of Michigan they state:
</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/legal/gra_amicus-ussc/um/Harvard-both.pdf[/url]”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/legal/gra_amicus-ussc/um/Harvard-both.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>One of the things that the colleges realize is that while a larger percentage of minority students maybe poorer,if you were to use this as the sole criteria, the pool would still be overwhelmingly majority, body for body by the plain and simle fact that there are more whites in the country.</p>

<p>As Hunt mentioned in one of the previous posts, it is important for students to be exposed to students of all racial and economic backgrounds. Low income minority students should be exposed to minority of means and to know that all minorities with money did not achieve their $$ simply by a hoop dream or record deal. For most low income students education is the ticket to upward economic mobility. Minorities with money ned to remain cognizant that while they have “moved up” there are still some that are behind.</p>

<p>if they used income only based AA, when they look</p>

<p>sybbie719:</p>

<p>You get the “research” point of the day award. Your posting is spot on in terms of this issue.</p>

<p>Congrats!</p>

<p>I’m all for exposing students to others of varying backgrounds, but should that factor be made more important than academic qualifications? I am fine with the minority (or poor person) that gets into a top school with scores that are lower than average (scores of said applicants ranging from the mid 1900s and up), for these students are capable of performing at such schools. What makes me angry, however, is when an applicant is admitted with scores lower than that seemingly only because they will add “diversity” to the incoming class, especially because this policy sacrifices academic integrity and throws away the accomplishments of other hardworking students who have the “disadvantage” (in this case) of not being a minority.</p>

<p>If you are going to blame Yale for admitting George W. Bush, then examine the Kennedy’s at Harvard (and for Teddy: UVa Law), and John Kerry at Yale. Kerry’s grades at Yale were lower than Bush’s it has been reported.</p>

<p>What we really need is an open admissions policy statement (that is truthful) about every school, so you know going in what the odds are. Such as:</p>

<p>"The highest percentage (75% or more) of our successful applicants have scores, grades, class rank of X; we admit another group of athletes on scholarship whom there are only minimal academic standards; we admit another 10% from legacy families; and we reserve the right to admit up to 5% of students who are below our normal academic standards but whom otherwise have compelling applications. "</p>

<p>And then stick to it.</p>

<p>They should be open to people who are clearly below the big red line of admit/reject. But frankly, they actually make a lot of money with thousands of applications from people who have no chance of being admitted. </p>

<p>Nobody has a “right” to be admitted anywhere, even a state school. Its always a privilege. So long as we have a society that is hell bent on credentialism and status, this problem will proliferate. </p>

<p>To me, in a perfect world, race would NOT even be on the application and it would be purged of other telltale signals of “inner city” or “suburban rich kid” or whatever. </p>

<p>Of course, that is not feasible. So we have an imperfect system.</p>

<p>The best solution is for families to focus on match schools and send their kids there, where they will excel and make everyone happy.</p>

<p>No, it shouldn’t because AA is wrong to begin with, and I’m not going to bother explaining why I think so on an online forum, because on an online forum, everyone is really only interested in putting their two sense in, and trying to devalue someone else’s two sense, rather than actually educate themselves about an issue.</p>

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<p>Which of those 2 senses would those be; seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling?</p>

<p>I am hoping that you meant 2 cents or $.02</p>

<p>Colleges do not accept students as a reward to that student for getting good grades. Colleges accept students who they think will make the university an interesting place and who will be future leaders. </p>

<p>Minorities (and I’m not one) do face discrimination in life. They cannot change the color of their skin, whereas a poor white person can morph into a well off white person. </p>

<p>I think colleges want to balance their classes. If one year 75% of the top scoring applicants were female, I doubt the university would just say, sure, let’s not balance the class. </p>

<p>I think colleges do take into account if someone has a poor background. Where I live lots of kids take the SATs many times, have SAT tutors, tutors for their school courses, etc. Poor kids don’t have any of this and often work at paying jobs after school or on weekends. This all comes outin the application - you cannot compare the scores of underprivileged kids of any race to those who are able to afford tutoring. My dad interviews for an Ivy and he said he rarely meets kids from the inner cities who have taken the SAT more than once.</p>

<p>I didn’t read all the posts but just want to mention one pet peeve of mine. Very privileged international students from Spanish-speaking countries being the recipients of affirmative action. For example, my daughter went to a college visit with a Venezuelan girl whose family are “all doctors” in her words. The girl told the admissions person that the school was her “safety” and she had way lower stats than my daughter and the admissions person was drooling and fawning all over her. Why does America owe this girl anything? We haven’t mistreated her ancestors and she isn’t underprivileged in any way? Ditto for kids with one parent of pure European descent from let’s say Argentina - and the Argentine parent has a graduate degree. Are they “Hispanic”?</p>

<p>I don’t think there should be affirmative action at all.</p>