Should Colleges and Universities limit the number of APs for college admisson?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>Some observations:</p>

<p>I went to a talk in a computer conference. The speaker has done important work and had been chief scientist in several major tech companies. He lamented that many software engineers with advanced degree are weak in high school Algebra and Geometry.</p>

<p>I had a son with LD, he spent most of his earlier years in special ed classes. So his math skill is not very strong. While he is in regular math classes in the past few years, he never takes accelerated or honor classes. His scores in the state tests are always “advanced”, so we know it is not difficult to score “advanced”. In his school, it is the norm to accelerate in math and take honor classes. Yet when we look at the state test scores of the accelerated students, only about half can score “advanced”.</p>

<p>Clearly only those think they are good at math would take the AMC tests. If we look at the AMC12 results, clearly those who can score high are really good, however if we look at the average score it is not that impressive. To get the average score, you only need to pick 7 problems out of the 25 and solve them correctly. Consider that the first 10 problems are relatively easy, in fact 5 of them are the same as the easier AMC10, we expect a higher average score. AMC problems are mostly Algebra and Geometry, maybe a few Trig but never a calculus problem. So even our better math students are not as good in Algebra and Geometry as they think.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=335865%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=335865&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The above link is about a geometry problem from Chinese university entrance exam. There are only a few posting in cc discussing it. Inverse, in his posting, points out that most engineering students in his university do not know how to draw a circle passing through three points, a really simple Geometry problem. There are a lot more discussion in other forums outside cc on the BBC article, and it is clear that most do not know how to do the Chinese test problem, at least not with a Geometry solution. BTW, the solution of the winner of the Royal Society of Chemistry contest is in <a href="http://www.rsc.org/images/Mathematicssolution_tcm18-86553.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rsc.org/images/Mathematicssolution_tcm18-86553.pdf&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>So what am I trying to say? There certainly are some very good high school students who can benefited from an real AP or other university level courses. However for most of the others taking AP classes, I think they would benefit more if they can take an honor class that really goes into depth into high school subjects such as Algebra and Geometry. Unfortunately such classes are almost non-existent. If universities would refuse to consider AP classes instead of encouraging it in the admission process, maybe the high schools would be more willing to provide courses that would provide the solid foundation.</p>

22

<p>Wouldn't it be nice if high school did what they are supposed to do instead of masquesrading as fanfarons in their futile attempt to becoming quasi colleges? All of this boondoggle of several dozens of AP classes cannot mask the utter failure of a system that sends the majority of its students to college with a need for remedial classes in basic subjects such as Math and English. When will high schools grasp the ridicule of offering more than 30 AP to a group of students who do not break 450 on the SAT individual elements.</p>

<p>Inasmuch as the AP program represents a valuable tool to students who are TRULY advanced, its impact on the overwhelming majority of students is entirely negative, especially when sold as a potential shortcut for a college education. As such, a horribly composed program of a mile wide and 1/2 inch deep is supposed to be a substitute for a real education! I am wondering how many posters who defend the AP offerings have checked the AP curriculum and exams lately! AP English Literature, anyone?</p>

<p>The reality is that Pomona is ABSOLUTELY correct in limiting the number of credits and imposing the minimum requirement of 30 classes ON campus. And, for what it is worth, contrary to Oldoldad's contention, Pomona is not worried about its admissions' or yield rates -as the statistics for LAC clearly indicate! The school imposes limits and restrictions because of the poor level and design of the courses.</p>

<p>Speaking about reality, the day the colleges START imposing strict limitations on the AP as a COLLEGE ADMISSION tool, one will witness the number of tests sink to much lower levels. In this regard, it may be good to remind everyone that the AP was NOT developed to be used as an admission test, and that it should not be used in handicapping students for admission purposes.</p>

<p>In the end, students should decide if they want to take the AP as part of their education, but it should have absolutely nothing to do with increasing their chances of admissions through gamesmanship.</p>

23

<p>"Harvard offers no credit toward Advanced Standing for the following Advanced Placement examinations: Art (Studio & Portfolio), Comparative Government and Politics, Computer Science A, Environmental Science, Human Geography, International English, U.S. Government and Politics; or any other not listed for credit on the following page.</p>

<p>A score of 5 on the following College Board Advanced Placement examinations may earn one full credit toward eligibility:</p>

<p>Art (History)
Biology
Calculus BC1
Chemistry
Economics (micro and macro)
English (literature and
composition)2
French (language)3</p>

<p>French (literature)3
German (language)
History (United States)
History (European)
Physics B4
Spanish (language)3
Spanish (literature)3</p>

<p>A score of 5 on the following College Board Advanced Placement examinations may earn one half credit toward eligibility:</p>

<p>Calculus AB
(or Calc AB subscore)1
Computer Science AB
Economics (micro)
Economics (macro)
English (language and
composition)2
Latin Literature
Latin: Vergil</p>

<p>Music (theory)5
Music (listening and
literature)5
Physics C (E&M)4
Physics C (Mechanics)4
Psychology
Statistics</p>

<p>The following College Board Advanced Placement examinations may NOT be used for eligibility:</p>

<p>Art (Studio and Portfolio)
Comparative Government and Politics
Computer Science A
Environmental Science
Human Geography
International English, and
United States Government and Politics.</p>

<p>Footnotes</p>

<p>1 Students may earn a maximum of one credit in calculus. Please note that the Calculus AB Subscore (of the Calculus BC exam) is considered the same exam as the separate Calculus AB exam, and one may not receive credit for both the AB exam and the AB subscore.</p>

<p>2 Students may earn a maximum of one credit in English.</p>

<p>3 One full credit will be granted for either the language or literature exam but not for both.</p>

<p>4 Students may earn a maximum of one credit in physics.</p>

<p>5 Students may earn a maximum of one credit in music, whether by AP exams or by the Harvard Placement exam in Music (harmony)."</p>

24

<p>xiggi: It may be correct for Pomona but that is one school and one only and not everybody agrees with ther approach. Why should Pomona care what anyone else does? Do what they want and let everybody els do what they want. The ideas that honors courses at many HS are a mile deep and an inch wide does not hold up. At least AP has some defined content and goals that are consistent. The idea of teaching to a test is amusing. Every class teaches to a test.. it is just ta particular teachers test. if a class Tests something that is not taught then the teacher is usually run out by the parents. The gripe is that teachers and sometimes schools do not want to teach somebody elses (college board) curriculum. Fine, do not offer it. In a good school who has a good reputation and who has kids that demontrate knowledge others ways ---let see maybe SAT scores or whatever then why worry about AP. The reason colleges like the APs and the test is that it give some level of comparability across schools and may help to sift thorugh the varying grading schemes from school to school. For some kids the aura of spending all four years on a campus may not be as important to them as to the institutionm. Also some kids like flexibility. Fortunaely all schools are not the same. Gives kids lots of options.</p>

25

<p>I have two kids in high school (D's a sophomore, S's a graduating senior). S will graduate with enough AP credit to pretty much finish up all his gen ed requirements ... essentially entering a state school with sophomore status. He'd give that all up and have no problem giving up AP's if, and it's a HUGE IF, honors classes were truly honors classes anymore. Both of my kids complain (and yes, they have tested gifted -- by our state's standards), that their honors courses are a joke. Because of the push by h.s. administration that anyone who has A's in standard should be taking honors and anyone with A's in honors should be doing AP, what my kids find is that the teachers cannot teach to the higher end of the learning curve because they lose too many students ... those who really shouldn't be at the higher levels. And we have parents screaming, "whoa! Johnn's never gotten bad grades like this before." If it weren't for the AP classes, and no not all of them were stellar examples of teaching, my kids would be going even more bonkers than they already are. In my S's school so many of the drop-outs, even into senior year, are the kids who've tested gifted who are so bored out of their skull they just leave. Most finish up at the local CC. There's got to be more involved with revamping public school education than just throwing in more AP's ... and not taking into account different tracks for different people. For instance, my D's high school has a math curriculum that assumes all will take AP Calc. I mean ... it's a literal push to it from the first class, in the way they take exams, practice ... prepare, etc., leading up to the fact that by the time they get in AP calc it'll be so familiar. Problem is they are losing so many excellent students, who are not gifted in math. Just not their strength. By the time they get to the pre-calc year where they offer an alternative to the AP track (trig/analytic), so many of those kids are ready to throw in the towel and stop math all together. And these are some kids who would have gone on to Calculus and done just fine ... but they're tired of being lost in this accelerated program.</p>

<p>Zebes</p>

26

<p>We've been spending time looking at the catalog, with general and major requirements and schedule of courses. With all her AP credits, D could double major in Astronomy and Physics (UMD-CP doesn't offer an Astrophysics major), and minor in computer science, and by taking 12 additional hours during the Winter session or summer school, would be able to graduate in 3 years, and take an average of 16 hrs/semester. (she'll have somewhere between 49 and 54 hours of credit, based on how well she does on the upcoming exams).</p>

<p>That said, I've encouraged (and I think she agrees, for now) that she should plan to be there for 4 years--take lighter courseloads per semester, take more things she WANTS to take, get involved in on-campus research, and be able to study abroad without it negatively affecting her ability to graduate in 4 years. She's already planning to attend grad school--but I really don't see the need to push it by a year. She needs time to have fun, too.</p>

<p>So, yes, I'm a BIG fan of APs and don't think colleges/Universities should limit the number of AP's.</p>

27

<p>There are some AP courses that are quite similar to equivalent college classes, and some that aren't.
Because of scheduling conflicts, S took college intro Bio instead of high school AP Bio. The textbook was the same. What was really different was the amount of time devoted to teaching Bio. The AP class probably had 1/3 to 1/2 more class time than the college class by the time the exam was held and even more by the time school ended. What this meant was that the AP students went at a slower pace and got a lot more support from their teachers than the college students. When college profs criticize AP classes, they often mean that the students who do well on AP exams are not necessarily used to the faster pace and more self-reliant approach of the college classes.
As for AP courses in the humanities, it really depends on the colleges. Yes, college is supposed to teach students how to think critically, but really, how many intro level history courses actually do so?</p>

28

<p>Oxtoby's piece was in the Chronicle of Higher Education, so he was really adressing his peers, not students or parents. His editorial ranged widely, to put it mildy, but I thought that his main criticism came pretty close to saying bluntly what lots of highly selective colleges really think: we don't believe that a high school AP usually replicates a college course, taught by someone who has a Ph.D and does research in the field, teaching a roomfull of college students. </p>

<p>And the unstated subtext seemed to be: "we did the right thing by capping AP credits at 2 courses. Join us (so we won't be at a competitive disadvantage in the admissions game)." </p>

<p>At bottom, I think that even students and parents agree; the number of students who use AP credits to lop a year or even a semester off the college experience at very selective institutions is pretty small.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
we don't believe that a high school AP usually replicates a college course, taught by someone who has a Ph.D and does research in the field, teaching a roomfull of college students.

[/quote]

The AP-Bio teacher at our school had a Ph.D. (not all that unusual in our school). She turned out to be so terrible that parents worked to have her removed. She was replaced by someone who did not have a Ph.D. but did a great job. A Ph.D. is no guarantee that someone can actually teach.
I personally did not see any difference in the intro Bio my S took and the AP-Bio course at the high school save for the amount of time devoted to covering the same materials from the same book.
As for college intro courses in different subjects, I have my doubts that trying to teach 100+ students is going to be superior to teaching 30 students or fewer (30 being the cap at our high school for all classes, but AP classes typically have fewer than that). </p>

<p>
[quote]
At bottom, I think that even students and parents agree; the number of students who use AP credits to lop a year or even a semester off the college experience at very selective institutions is pretty small.

[/quote]

Indeed. So I don't see the need for a call to arms over the number of APs.
Pace Xiggi, APs are more or less equivalent to the "terminale" in French lycees and to the British A-levels, and the German Arbitur. They serve their purpose within the context of high school education.</p>

30

<h1>22: You go, xiggi!</h1>

31

<p>
[quote]
APs are more or less equivalent to the "terminale" in French lycees and to the British A-levels, and the German Arbitur. They serve their purpose within the context of high school education.

[/quote]
I agree. They give a much needed standardization to the American education system at least for the bright students. Sure they are badly taught in some schools, or watered down because they are open to everyone, but that doesn't mean the problem lies with the courses. In our school nearly everyone gets 4s or 5s. The kids write several research papers using primary as well as secondary sources in APUSH. Biology covered more material in more depth than dh had in his college intro bio course. The English language AP teacher had the kids writing papers every week. If colleges don't want to accept APs no one is making them, but I've heard too many stories about colleges not accepting APs and making kids take the exact same course with the exact same books. How silly is that?</p>

32

<p>Yes, AP classes do indeed serve a purpose within the context of a high school education just as they serve a purpose for college placement, but I have to go with Xiggi:</p>

<p>
[quote]
In the end, students should decide if they want to take the AP as part of their education, but it should have absolutely nothing to do with increasing their chances of admissions through gamesmanship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Pres. Oxtoby's call to limit the number of AP used for college admission and for high school to be high schools is a much needed wake-up call to reassess quality control and the impact of the AP on secondary education. The explosion of the AP courses since the 1980s has shaped and changed secondary education goals. Many educators realize that a great part of the problem with AP courses is not that they teach too little but that they attempt to teach too much. Highly selective colleges and universities do look at AP courses to assess and even compare the quality of academic program offered by applicant’s high schools and these days, parents, students and high school guidance counselors know full well that the number and caliber of courses taken do play an important role in admissions decisions. The positive side of the push for AP and honor level courses on the schools is the pressure to upgrade curricula and instruction. At the heart of it all, there is nothing wrong with the premise that students ought to be driven by the incentive to challenge themselves and tackle rigorous coursework even while knowing that this will be viewed favorably on college applications. There is a problem when taking AP classes becomes an end in itself. </p>

<p>Pres. Oxtoby's complaints (remember the NYTimes article "The Incredibles") specifically target the rapid and largely uncontrolled expansion of AP programs caused by the increased pressure for students to rack up AP credits in order to get an admissions edge. Seems to me this is an extraordinarily timely criticism precisely because the rapid expansion of AP programs has made quality control extremely difficult - some might be tempted to say a mission impossible - but the CB is attempting to do just that this year with its audit of every Advanced Placement course in the nation. As the CB sets out to evaluate and endorse AP teachers and programs it seems perfectly fitting for college administrators to take stock and evaluate the role of AP in college admissions.</p>

<p>So, if the number of AP's for college admissions purposes were capped at, let's say 10, or 12, or 8 (pick a number), that still would allow most students to take an ample number of AP classes during high school according to their ability and interests. With a capped number of AP's for college admission, high schools could focus more clearly on the task of carrying out their mission to offer quality programs and hire and train qualified teachers to meet their student's needs. In this case, needs might not be quite the same as wants and a few popular and no doubt interesting electives might bite the dust. Pres. Oxtoby's argument to limit the number of APs for college admission (as opposed to college placement which is an entirely different matter altogether) emphasizes the call for academic rigor that does not value rote memorization over in-depth understanding. I like the way Zebes put it: "There's got to be more involved with revamping public school education than just throwing in more AP's" and revamping college admissions to address this issue sends a clear message to everyone - especially to students and parents who are active participants in this "educational arms race" - that it is not only not necessary but not advisable to forsake a good education (that often does mean a firm grounding in the basics) just to get an AP designation on a high school transcript.</p>

33

<p>In addition, if AP's are going to be part of our desired (by some) "standardized" high school curriculum, then the tests, prep books, etc. should be paid for with school district funds.</p>

<p>$80+ a course is a big chunk of change for a lot of kids, and may be a deciding factor for some in limiting their number of AP courses.</p>

34

<p>did a google search and came across this 2004 press release from U of Iowa. </p>

<p>from the article.............. "Students who take AP courses also save considerable money by taking college-level classes without incurring tuition. Nationally, more than a million students took at least one AP exam last year."</p>

<p>the link to the press release is:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.news-releases.uiowa.edu/2004/september/092004acceleration.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news-releases.uiowa.edu/2004/september/092004acceleration.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>titled.....</p>

<p>'A Nation Deceived' Report Argues Gifted Children Often Kept Behind</p>

<p>.....................................
a pdf of the report itself can be downloaded at the link provided in the article</p>

35

<p>I agree that there is a ridiculous number of AP courses. Some of it surely has to do with the CB's continuous search for more revenues; some of it is enabled by the switch to block scheduling. Students who rack up more than 10 APs are most likely to be found in schools that have block scheduling. </p>

<p>Colleges can send the signal that only x number of APs will be considered for admission; there remains, though, the issue of the quality and the pace of non-AP courses. AP courses are far from perfect. But we found that non-AP courses were worse.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
In the end, students should decide if they want to take the AP as part of their education, but it should have absolutely nothing to do with increasing their chances of admissions through gamesmanship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is a nice idea, but I can't see it working in practice.</p>

<p>Colleges want their applicants to have taken the most rigorous curriculum available. In most instances, the most rigorous courses available in a high school are AP and/or IB courses. So kids who want to compete for admission to selective colleges have to take those courses. Otherwise, their curricula won't be considered "most rigorous."</p>

37

<p>I think Oxtenby's argument against AP course is shallow beyond belief - and exhibits both a lack of understanding of the AP program and a lack of understanding of why most students take AP courses.</p>

<p>I know no student (I realize there are some) who take AP courses with the expectation that they will reduce their time in college. </p>

<p>Most take the AP courses because they want "more" than the average high school course. They want higher level content and, quite frankly, a higher level of students in their class. Some do take AP courses to improve their high school transcript and, thus, their chance of admission to a more select school. </p>

<p>If these students are ready for more advanced college coursework, why should they be denied this opportunity?</p>

<p>As far as the college credit issue goes, I prefer that students use their AP experience to gain access to more advanced courses rather than accumulating college credits. I think many/most select colleges feel the same. </p>

<p>However, his judgement that AP courses are not "up to par" with those taught in colleges just speaks to his personal prejudice. I admit, not all courses are "college worthy", but most savvy kids know the difference. I also admit that not all high school teachers effectively teach college material but many do - in fact, many do a better job of covering the material than many college professors. </p>

<p>And, I think his comments about the CollegeBoard charging for their tests and thus having a marketing interest in increasing the number of AP's taken is rather amusing, since I believe the same could be said for his policies.</p>

38

<p>hereshoping---I agree with you---our school D DOES pay for the AP tests---unless someone has failed the class, I don't think there are many who do not take the AP test. It would be extremely difficult for many kids to be able to swing that kind of money for a heavy courseload of AP courses.</p>

<p>In D's case, she took the AP Physics Mechanics test last year, at the recommendation of her AP Physics B teacher. Also, she took the Calculus BC subtest when she took AP Calc AB. We had to pay for both of these since they were beyond the course curriculum. </p>

<p>Paying for the courses is at least one thing our district does for disadvantaged students..... </p>

<p>Regarding taking the AP courses to get into college, other than AP English Lang and Lit classes, D has loved EVERY AP class she's had. She would have been bored to tears in the non-AP levels of these classes. I kept encouraging her that the AP English tests would be the ones she'd appreciate most in college---she wants to spend all her time in the Science/Math/Computer Science buildings. With her AP credit, the only English class she'll have to take is an advanced Writing for the Sciences class junior year. She's an excellent writer, and an avid reader, so I don't think she'll be missing out on anything. (No offense to any English majors out there).</p>

39

<p>"Pres. Oxtoby's argument to limit the number of APs for college admission (as opposed to college placement which is an entirely different matter altogether) emphasizes the call for academic rigor that does not value rote memorization over in-depth understanding."
IMHO, this is complete nonsense. The push to improve education for the masses is a totally different need and not really related to the type of student who will enter a top school. The audit and making sure students take the test to insure the AP trademark is not being abused is a good thing.
But let’s think about this. Most studies show that students who do well on AP tests and place into higher course do just as well or better that those who take the intro course in college. So that must mean the intro courses in college must be only rote and shallow courses too. The reason students do well in Calculus and Physics is that AP and the tests include a fair amount of conceptual understanding and problem solving skills. People who criticize often know little about a good AP course and/or often give too much credit to the teaching that occurs in college. Ironically many colleges criticize AP because it covers the same material in a longer time i.e. pacing. Now that would imply colleges are more of a mile wide and an inch deep and perhaps they need to look at their curriculum.
I know a Physics prof at a top 20 college in Physics who could not believe that kids in AP Physics would learn as much as those in the freshman physics course. He decided to do a two year study by giving AP test as finals to his students. Low and behold these top student s actual scored at or below the percents that the AP kids were scoring to get 4-5 in High school. He became a believer. I have been involved with top researchers in science education who went to places such as MIT. They openly criticized AP as not teaching concepts etc. Of course I brought them some tests and showed them the multiple choice questions. They said these were the same type of conceptual questions they had been advocating and realized they had not even looked at the tests in detail or realized that other (including Harvard) profs who are studying learning had been on the test design committees. They had earlier stated that their research showed that engineers when given a conceptual battery after taking high level college course scored abysmally. They went on to test folks at all levels around the country to demonstrate students were learning formulas not concepts. I went and gave the battery to AP classes several semesters and students scores far exceeded what they found for college.
I would stack good AP teachers (by the way many have PhDs. as some have pointed out) up against many of their counterparts at college. I can not tell you how many kids come back to visit teachers at their HS schools to tell them they wish their college profs were as good or that they were grateful for the foundations they received in their AP classes. Also, I would say many high school teachers do a better job at nurturing these students then their college counterparts.
It is one thing to question whether or not half the population is ready for college material in high school. One could argue, however, that perhaps a good chunk of high schoolers who are ready to take 4-6 AP’s should consider just leaving high school for senior or junior year because they are ready for college. A Bard prof (I believe it was) argued that perhaps it was time for more of these kids to transition into college at 16 and have colleges find profs to nurture them there.
Limiting AP. Hmm… The next thing you someone is going to suggest that kids can only learn a certain number of Beethoven sonatas at a certain age and maybe only play 2 sports or not be able to shoot from the three point line until he/she is 15.
Punishing achievers for some questionable college motives seems a problem. Oh yeah the Pomona guy I am sure talks about just how much more impressive each crop of admits are too. Let them limit the AP's. That may be a boon to colleges who believe flexibility and choice, and what is important to each individual rather than protecting an institution, its employees, or the status quo. Paradigm shifts seem not to be in the interest of these, so called, liberal institutions of higher thought. Just my 2^ 8 cents worth.</p>

40

<p>I have a h.s. jr. who is very interested in applying to UNC Chapel Hill as an OOS student next year. Someone who graduated from her h.s. who also applied to UNC-CH told her that the average OOS student there has completed AT LEAST 7 AP classes. The only problem is that her h.s. only offers 3 AP courses because it "doesn't buy into the CB hype". Their most advanced classes are certainly as challenging as AP classes, but their philosophy is that by making them true honors classes, they have more flexibility and creativity if they teach them as their own courses. Many of her peers take the AP classes and do quite well. But, when the adcoms look at the transcripts, they only see one or two AP classes and think this kid wasn't challenged and didn't take the most difficult courseload. Even if the counselors emphasize the rigorous curriculum, do colleges still give a nod to the AP courses? Doesn't seem right. Actually, seems like a bit of a racket perpetuated by the College Board. In the long run, do these graduates suffer?</p>