<p>Colleges typically look at whether they took, and how the student performed in, the most challenging curriculum available. Sometimes that involves many APs, other times it does not.</p>
<p>Many schools do not offer AP classes, preferring their own rigorous classes. However, the students often take the AP exams and do quite well in them.
If the exams will only be taken in senior year, after admission decisions have been made, one solution might be to include a description of the course, attaching a syllabus if possible.
Some colleges do take into account the fact that many high schools do not offer AP classes, especially those located in rural areas and inner cities. As long as the student has taken the most rigorous curriculum available, it should be okay.</p>
<p>I'm certainly not bringing this up to my brother who's going to take AP Econ and APUSH exams. I have tried to use those scores to get out of introductory level or in some way that my scores could be useful. Actually, I flunked AP Econ so I had to take a departmental exam when I went to Smith- flunked it anyway. Even the professors told me that people who scored perfect 5 still had trouble with introducory econ classes there- in other words, AP Econ scores are useless.</p>
<p>Basically, I'm using my AP credits so I could study abroad this semester as a "filler" to make sure I would graduate on time. But to take the exams to get out of introductory classes is just not the right way to about doing it. </p>
<p>Though colleges are limiting how many AP credits they can take, I think they should be use just as "fillers" so students can take time off or take a smaller courseload for a semester. To use them to get out of basic gen ed and introductory classes is not worth it- there are many other interesting classes to take (like... anthropology for social science instead of government) to meet the gen ed requirements and sometimes introductory courses in hard social sciences, math, and science are not worth it at all since the material is taught completely different at a real college-level.</p>
<p>College is a whole another world- AP classes just can't always ease the transition between high school and college. They are JUST there to challenge the students' interests and minds. If I had to do it all over again, I would steer clear of APUSH in my school (absolutely pathetic) and take AP Bio or Stats because they were interesting even if they would kill my GPA a bit. AP Econ? If I had never taken that class, I wouldn't have taken it but now I've taken that class, it's really stayed with me and I learned a lot. </p>
<p>I'm just glad that my brother's taking APs that interest him, not to impress colleges- only taking 2 each year (APUSH and AP Econ this year, AP Stats and AP Psych next year).</p>
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[quote]
People who criticize often know little about a good AP course and/or often give too much credit to the teaching that occurs in college. </p>
<p>Of course I brought them some tests and showed them the multiple choice questions. They said these were the same type of conceptual questions they had been advocating and realized they had not even looked at the tests in detail or realized that other (including Harvard) profs who are studying learning had been on the test design committees.
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<p>OOD, could you please tell this board what is the percentage of MC questions that can be MISSED and still earn a score of 5 on one of the AP tests you know so well?</p>
<p>And, for what it is worth, could I ask you if you consider all the AP tests to be of similar quality and effectiveness? In your opinion, are there any differences between the AP tests that have gathered a solid reputation (Calculus BC, Physics, and Foreign Languages) and others such as AP English Literature, AP US History or AP European History?</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>This is not so unusual, is it?
In my S's class, the midterm had a mean of 60+/160. I'm sure that the final grades will not be mostly Fs.</p>
<p>Marite, the issue is not about the scoring being unusual as much as the not so veiled implication that criticisms of the tests stems from a lack of knowledge of the inner workings and composition of the tests. </p>
<p>Also, allow me to repeat that my issues with the AP program are not generalized nor universal. I would be the first to recognize that there are several positive angles, especially in the offerings that are both seasoned and updated. However, courses and tests in hard sciences present a different image from their counterparts in the humanities. Can we really draw parallels between courses that require the development of conceptual knowledge and criticical thinking and courses that merely require the regurgitation of an enormous amount of facts? With today's technology of retrieval of information, are tests that require rote memorization truly compatible with the expectations of college work, especially investigative work?</p>
<p>Haha, Odyssey, I was wondering how long it would take for the Scarsdale story to surface. The biggest part of the story is obviously found on the HS website. The survey of 100 colleges and the 15 pages Q+A are particularly interesting. This a school that did its homework!</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>I agree with you about the APs in the humanities. I do think, however, that many college profs who decry AP curricula and grading practices are often guilty of exactly the same sins. </p>
<p>For example, how is one prof who has 50+ students and no TA going to design tests and grade them? How many 15 page research papers plus 3-hours final exams will s/he be able to grade in about a week? Chances are that that prof will do something very similar to the AP teacher with 20 students. Lots of MCs (re-labelled Identifications), some short essays, perhaps an 8-10 page term paper. </p>
<p>I do not claim this is a universal practice; but just as there are good AP teachers and bad ones, good AP classes and bad ones, so there are excellent college classes and mediocre ones, with profs whose teaching skills and standards vary wildly.</p>
<p>Xiggi</p>
<p>Scarsdale is the rare school (even in Westchester) in terms of prestige, staff, and students that can claim that their own non AP offerings will be more rigorous than the APs, be believed, and not have it hurt their students in the college application process.</p>
<p>The far more common scenario is one where AP offerings are significantly more rigorous that what is or would otherwise be offered.</p>
<p>That said, outside of core areas, I do have some issues with how what APs are offered and how they are viewed. For example, I have enough issues with full professors ability to teach Economics and Psychology classes when all they teach is Psychology or Economics classes, that I have little confidence that the average HS Social Studies teacher (who is most likely a history major) is able to teach these subjects at the college level.</p>
<p>I think the other big thing all of us posting here forget is what "college level" really means at the vast majority of colleges in the US. The AP's may not be "Pomona level" or "Harvard level" but I'm willing to bet for those 95% of colleges that accept more than half of those who apply they are not that different from college offerings. I applaud Scarsdale for offering something better. But most towns can't afford the kind of school system they have. They spent a whopping $24,647 per pupil in 2006</p>
<p>I agree that the math and sciences (chem, physics, and bio) represent the best of AP. </p>
<p>However, not all the humanities are "regurgitation of facts" and "rote memorization". </p>
<p>A friend of mine, a professor of history at Berkeley said, after examining the various curriculum, she is quite supportive of World History and American History. She said that the World History curriculum in particular emphasizes the "best that is history"?</p>
<p>Now, English Language and English Lit is an entirely different matter. I know no one who believes those courses are a true substitute for college literature and composition.</p>
<p>I'm convinced that the most reasonable thing would be for colleges to ask individual departments to study the AP curriculum and decide whether or not to grant placement out of their intro-level course(s) on the basis of certain AP scores. If they decide that the AP doesn't replicate what they teach, they should at least devise a their own placement exam. That would actually encourage Scarsedale-style innovation.</p>
<p>The question of how many credits a student can carry forward from HS AP courses toward a graduation credit-hour requirement is maybe thornier, but I thought that Pomona's cap at something well below the equivalent of a semester of college experience seemed reasonable in an age where students take AP courses numbering in the double digits.</p>
<p>Reflectivemom, </p>
<p>Actually, my S's English Lang/English Lit AP classes have been absolutely phenomenal. And, I would stack them up against any of the college level honors lit classes I took. However, with that said, he happened to get two of the most amazing teachers in the school. Friends who took AP Lit this year with different teachers were monumentally disappointed and essentially did nothing in class to speak of. DS's Lit class stretched their minds, challlenged them, forced them to get out of their comfort zone and prepare, research and teach intricate lessons on some of the major works they studied. S taught the lessons on Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman. The teacher met outside of class, on her own time, with student groups ... helped guide them in preparation of their teaching week -- a wonderful mentoring atmosphere where she encouraged them to be creative to get their message across, and yet made sure that the info that needed to be taught wasn't left out. My S will minor in English Lit because of his fabulous english teachers.</p>
<p>Zebes</p>
<p>And here's a novel thought, why don't colleges devise courses that take up where the AP's leave off. Instead of saying your APUSH isn't the same as our US History, why not make a course that adds on to the AP instead of rehashing most (but not all!) of the same stuff.</p>
<p>MaratonMan88 / mathmom:
Many colleges do just as you suggest. Each of the colleges my son considered had unique AP policies. This is exactly how it should be, since they set their own curriculum standards. My son will be attending Rose-Hulman, where they have a very extensive table that describes what a score of 4 or 5 on any AP test is "worth". In some cases, it is worth credit; in others, the score qualifies you to take a more "advanced" freshman class; there are other tests that do not provide any benefit at all. I would imagine that some other institution's table would be quite different, because their academic program is different.</p>
<p>While some kids take AP's to get a leg up on college credits (especially if they plan to attend a large state university where many of the freshman classes are maxed out), there are many other reasons why schools offer AP's and kids take them. In Texas, the state HS curriculum is not as challenging as the AP curriculum. Our local HS is extremely diverse, and we have 3 different "levels" of classes. AP classes provide a fantastic opportunity for those kids that want an academic challenge. Generally, the quality of the class is enhanced by having the better teachers and fellow classmates that are dedicated to their studies.</p>
<p>In my opinion, it's all about context, and one cannot make generalizations about how many AP's schools should offer, how many a kid should or should not take, or how many a college should accept. I believe these parties are smart enough to make the decisions that are right for them.</p>
<p>Our best students should be given the opportunity to attend graduate school rather than earn "tuition credits" at the Pomonas of the world. It is absurd that Pomona would deny credit to a student who scored a grade of 5 (upper 10-15% of test takers) on an AP exam. I think the real fear of Pomona is that it does not want to lose its best students to law/med/MBA school after 3 years. I say that for our best students,college should be a 3 year experience like it is in England. Society is better off having a student with scores of 5 in Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, English, Biology and Psychology saving lives a year earlier in med school instead of repeating work at Pomona.</p>
<p>From the Biology Panel Report from the NRC Committee on Programs for Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in American High Schools:</p>
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[quote]
Is the Emphasis on Advanced Placement Detrimental to the AP Program?
The Panel's response to this situation was to recommend that colleges and universities should be strongly discouraged, by the College Board and... other educational organizations, from using scores on AP and IB exams as the sole basis for granting automatic advanced placement out of specific courses for majors, or out of biology distribution requirements for nonmajors. Furthermore, these exams should be designed not for determining eligibility to bypass introductory courses, but rather for assessing ability to succeed at college-level work in biology.</p>
<p>When we are considering the implications of this idea, the word automatic should be emphasized. For example, the Panel's recommendation would mean that advanced placement in the form of elective credit toward a biology degree is appropriate, whereas automatic placement out of a required introductory course is not.</p>
<p>Current practices for granting advanced placement vary widely. Many top-rank colleges and universities already refuse to grant automatic placement out of required courses on the basis of only AP or IP exam scores. Instead, they treat incoming freshmen as they would upper-level transfer students, evaluating their preparation case by case. Others grant college credit but not automatic advanced placement out of specific courses. At the opposite extreme, in a few states automatic placement out of introductory courses with an AP exam score of 3 or better is mandated by law. This unfortunate policy, which can result in harm to less well prepared students and can cause disruption of the college curriculum, should be strongly discouraged.</p>
<p>The Panel's recommendation for advanced placement may seem radical, going against even the name of the AP program, but it has several arguments in its favor: First, and perhaps most important, it would cut the Gordian knot that currently ties together the content of AP and introductory college courses, which would free the AP curriculum from its current preoccupation with comprehensiveness and allow a more in-depth study of selected areas in biology. Second, it would also free the College Board to develop more effective instruments than the current AP exam for evaluating real understanding, including more formative assessments and free-response questions...
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<p>Chicago, too, is a leader in the type of approach described by mom2sons, which combines advanced placement for some AP scores, no credit for others (notably the history and English APs), and the option of placement exams for still other courses:</p>
<p>But such detailed thinking about the individual APs at the dept. level remains the exception rather than the rule.</p>
<p>Even more significant then that Pres. Oxtoby is a University of Chicago man - he joined the Chicago faculty in 1977 and went on to serve two terms as dean of physical sciences at the University of Chicago before going to Pomona in 2003. </p>
<p>Going back to the OP article, Oxtoby's main complaint is that "in order to accumulate 10 or more AP exams, it is necessary to begin far earlier. At some high schools, a 10th-grade chemistry course (the first chemistry course a student takes) is now designated as "advanced placement" so that introductory as well as college-level material can be compressed into a single year of work. In a few subjects, AP courses are now available as early as ninth grade." He then poses the question: "Can a ninth grader truly be said to be doing "college level" work in European history?" His question strikes both at the drive for high schools to imitate college rather than concentrate on the old fashioned basics:</p>
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“We are finding students who have learned about s-, p- and d-orbitals — a theoretical concept in chemistry — but they don’t know that chlorine is a gas.”
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<p>Pres. Oxtoby's concerns over the content of AP courses and high school curricula aside, just how many APs classes hit the right note between rigorous academic challenge and frenzy? The following suggests that capping a maximum at around 10 APs on any one student's high school transcript would fit the bill. </p>
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[quote]
The Emma Willard graduation requirements represent the minimum requirements for an Emma Willard diploma. The more highly selective the college, the more critical it is that a student exceed the graduation requirements in the traditional academic areas: English, foreign language, history, mathematics, and science.</p>
<p>As a general rule all juniors should be enrolled in a course in each of these five disciplines; seniors should be enrolled in a course in at least four of these disciplines. Students seeking entrance to the most highly selective colleges and universities should carry five academic courses senior year. In all cases, college entrance should be weighed against a student's interests, her ability to manage individual courses and total course load, and her future goals.
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