<p>I want to keep my science GPA as high as possible and I hear many people struggle with O Chem. Should I take O Chem in community college and transfer the credit? Will this be looked down on by medical schools?</p>
<p>yes it definitely will be looked down on, in some cases it won't even be accepted (example: duke med wants all premed courses taken at your regular institution)
organic chemistry is one of the most important classes when medical school admissions look at your application because it's the premed class that most closely resembles a med school class in terms of the mass of material that needs to be memorized and the need to know things over a relatively long term. you do not want to take chances with it.</p>
<p>What about taking it over the summer, will med schools look down on that? Also what if you take the orgo lecture during the regular school year, and then take the lab at your university over the summer?</p>
<p>
[quote]
yes it definitely will be looked down on, in some cases it won't even be accepted (example: duke med wants all premed courses taken at your regular institution)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? I have never heard of such an official policy at Duke Medical. Duke certainly has nothing to say about this on its official admissions policy.</p>
<p>Nor am I aware of too many medical schools that explicitly state that they will not accept CC credit. I'm sure there may be some, but they seem to be distinctly in the minority.</p>
<p>Now, don't get me wrong. It is clearly true that an A in OChem from a community college will not be valued as highly as an A in OChem from a more reputable school. However, it looks a whole lot better than a C in OChem at that more reputable school. </p>
<p>Hence, what I would say is that if you're confident that you will do well in your regular school, then take it in your regular school. However, if you have reason to believe that you won't do well, then a CC is an option.</p>
<p>Consider this document from the Stanford Quest Scholars program (which is basically Stanford's outreach program). </p>
<p>"Myth #11.
I AM ALWAYS BEST OFF TAKING ALL MY
INTRODUCTORY PRE-MED CLASSES AT STANFORD.</p>
<p>False. It is true that it is more difficult to get
an A in a Stanford pre-med class than it is at most other
schools. This is easier to understand since you are
graded on a curve with some of Americas best students.
Consequently, an A at Stanford can mean a lot,
particularly in science classes with a C mean.</p>
<p>However, most of you wont get As in every
class. And because of this, some of you certainly
would have had higher GPAs elsewhere. It is also true
that medical school know this and will take it into account.
However, this forgiveness factor is not infinite.
Getting a 4.0 in your pre-med requirements at a
junior college will certainly make you a stronger applicant
than a 3.5 in your pre-med requirements at Stanford.
One admissions officer I spoke with estimated
the bump factor of attending a school like Harvard or
Stanford to be between 0.3 and 0.5 of a grade point.
For some of you, an A in high school could
be achieved through hard work and determination.
This is not necessarily true of the pre-med classes at
Stanford. Everyone is trying hard. They are all smart.
And the classes can be very difficult.</p>
<p>The upshot of all of this is that some of you
may be more successful applying to medical school by
taking most of your pre-med classes elsewhere. And I
have certainly known many applicants who would have
been more successful applying to medical school if they
had pursued their academic passions at Stanford and
took their pre-med classes elsewhere, either in summers
or in a year off. I have also known students at Stanford
who would have been fantastic physicianswho
quit the pre-med process in frustration without exploring
this option. If you want to be a doctor and are
struggling at Stanford, this option is worth exploring.
I say this with some hesitancy because I know
it may cause controversy and it is difficult to know who
would be statistically better off focusing their pre-med
energies at a less competitive institution. I should also
add, however, that all such core classes cover the material
required both for the MCAT and to be a good
doctor.</p>
<p>This in no way is meant to imply you made the
wrong choice by coming to Stanford if you are a premed.
Quite the contrary, Stanford may be the best
place in the country for pre-meds to attend college.
You can attain a first-rate education in any field and
simultaneously approach your pre-med curriculum with
more flexibility and more creativity than at nearly any
other university.</p>
<p>Take home point: Consider taking some of
your pre-med classes elsewhere if you are hitting a wall
here. Many successful medical school applicants have
done this."</p>
<p>Well, here's another quote from Duke's prehealth site:
<a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/prehealth/faq/rcourses.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/prehealth/faq/rcourses.html</a>
"25. Will med schools think poorly of me if I take a required class at another institution?</p>
<p>The answer to this will depend to some extent upon your record at Duke and your reasons for doing so. If you have chosen to take the bare minimum of science courses required to make application to medical school and then have taken some of those at a less demanding institution, the medical schools might question either your self-confidence, your abilities, or both. However, if you take most of your required courses as a part of a challenging curriculum at Duke, but choose to take a required course at another solid institution for financial, scheduling, etc. reasons, they are not likely to be too concerned. If the course is one that is tested on the MCAT, they may look to your MCAT score to be sure you were well prepared."</p>
<p>I really think what you have to look at is, Is a community college a reputable institution? I don't think so. Yes, community colleges are fine and great and we need them, but I'm telling you that I have heard from multiple qualified sources (like professors, med school admissions officers) that Organic chemistry is ESPECIALLY important; a reputable private school, probably fine; a solid state school, probably ok; a weaker state school, you're really pushing it; a community college? really questionable, even the Stanford article above doesn't mention them. I just really wouldn't recommend it from what I know. Just work really hard at it, seek help, get a tutor; you can do it!</p>
<p>Aha, but again, here's the real issue on the table. Nobody, least of all me, is disputing that an A in OChem from a strong and difficult school looks better than an A from a mediocre school. So if you believe that you can get that A from a difficult school, you should go for it.</p>
<p>What I'm talking about is, what if you don't think you can get the A from a difficult school. In particular, what if you fear that you can get only a C? In that case, I think that there is little dispute that getting the A from a mediocre school would be better. And believe me, there are LOTS of premeds who take OChem at tough schools and end up with C's or worse. LOTS.</p>
<p>The fact is, it's not just a matter of hard work. Often times it's a simple matter of inherent talent, which is not something you can develop. I would submit that very few people in the world could get an A in OChem from, say, MIT, no matter how hard they worked and no matter what kind of tutoring they have. Why? Because everybody in that MIT OChem class is a genius, and the class is curved such that there are only a fixed number of A's given out. What that means if that if you want the A, you have to beat out one of those MIT geniuses. That's a very tall order for most mortals. </p>
<p>Hence, the real question is, what's better, an A from a poor school, or a bad grade from a good school. I think that even most med-school adcom officers would admit, if they were being honest, that the A from a poor school would be better. </p>
<p>That's the God's honest truth. Med-school admissions is very much a numbers game in the sense that good numbers won't guarantee admission, but bad numbers will almost certainly guarantee rejection. Hence you gotta do what you gotta do to keep yourself alive in the game for as long as possible. Nobody every get admitted to med-school who got rejected on the first-round numerical cutoffs.</p>
<p>You're right, it's not about hard work all the time, it's largely about ability, and many people do poorly in orgo at tough schools. But let's stick to the main topic; we're talking about community college here, there are completely different academic standards at community colleges. Fine take it at a state school or whatever, but I'm strictly referring to the initial poster's question. Can you honestly say that med schools will take an A in some random, unknown community college seriously? Take the B at a state school if you have to, sure, no argument about that.</p>
<p>
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Can you honestly say that med schools will take an A in some random, unknown community college seriously? Take the B at a state school if you have to, sure, no argument about that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, to me, the real question is, what's the alternative? The alternative may indeed be getting a 'C' or worse at your current school or a state school. I agree with you that an 'A' in OChem from a no-name community college is not the greatest credential in the world - but hey, for the purposes of med-school admissions, it's better than getting a C, even from a tough school like MIT. </p>
<p>The point is, sometimes you have to concede reality and tell yourself that certain things probably aren't going to realistically happen no matter how hard you try. I have to admit that I'd probably never be able to get an A in OChem at a school like MIT, and even getting a B would not be assured. So when you're confronted with these kinds of situations, you are wise to look at alternatives.</p>
<p>Would colleges accept the credit? Like most colleges. I'm thinking of taking Biology and Organic Chemistry and it'll be kinda bad if they don't accept it.</p>
<p>Biology and organic chemistry BOTH at community college? I'm sure sakky would say it's fine, but think about what medical schools are going to think about your abilities. You obviously have no faith in your science aptitude, why should a medical school?</p>
<p>Taking it at a community college just to raise the grade, IMO, is a bad idea. If you have no faith in your ability to perform in OChem, you need to consider how you'll do with harder classes down the line. </p>
<p>Now, if you're a transfer student and you take it because you have no other options, then it's a damned fine idea (since you want to transfer.)</p>
<p>I think the problem is that people have a problem with organic chem-not the school. Yes, taking it at MIT means you'll be competing against smarter individuals. However, it is still the same course! The same textbook used at Harvard is used at CPCC (I checked). If you study well, what's really the problem? I've never been particularly strong in chemistry, but I'm a freshman taking orgo at Duke. The curve is tough, but I studied a lot and pulled off a very decent score on my first exam. If you don't think you'll do well in orgo, get a study group-it helps a tremendous amount. </p>
<p>Then again, I'm not pre-med, so take my $0.02 with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>That, and getting one C in your college career isn't going to preclude you from getting into med school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Biology and organic chemistry BOTH at community college? I'm sure sakky would say it's fine, but think about what medical schools are going to think about your abilities. You obviously have no faith in your science aptitude, why should a medical school?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not saying it's "fine", because like I said, obviously if you can get top grades in bio and OChem at a strong school, then you should do that. What I am asking is, what if you can't? Specifically, what if you feel that you will only be able to pull C's? In that case, I would argue that you are indeed better off going to a CC. </p>
<p>The point is, you can't always get everything you want. Sometimes you gotta choose the least bad alternative. That's life. There are PLENTY of people who want to go to med-school and take bio/OChem at a difficult school, and really do end up with C's or worse and hence have their med-school chances greatly impaired. These people would have been better off taking those classes at a CC.</p>
<p>Again, I agree that med-schools will not weight an A from a CC as highly as an A from a strong school. But like I said, they'll weight it a whole lot more than a C from a strong school. Like it or not, that's how med-school admissions works. </p>
<p>I also don't see what 'faith' in your abilities has to do with anything. It doesn't matter who has faith in what, the only thing that matters is whether you get admitted or not. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the problem is that people have a problem with organic chem-not the school. Yes, taking it at MIT means you'll be competing against smarter individuals. However, it is still the same course! The same textbook used at Harvard is used at CPCC (I checked). If you study well, what's really the problem?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ha! I don't think you understand what you are saying. By the same logic, getting straight A's at a place like MIT or Caltech is just a simple matter of studying hard, right? So why is it that practically nobody at MIT or Caltech ever actually does graduate with straight A's? Is it because those students are always stupid or lazy?</p>
<p>Look, the fact is, in most science courses, grades are curved such that there are only a limited number of A's given out. Hence, it's not a matter of simply studying hard, because at places like MIT, everybody is studying hard, and yet only a limited number of people will get A's. That's how curves work. Surely nobody here is so arrogant as to think they can just go to MIT and be guaranteed of getting straight A's. The truth is, there are plenty of schools at which you can take OChem, study extremely hard, and STILL get only a C. Why? Because, like I said, everybody is studying hard too. Getting an A in a curved class is not simply about studying hard. It's about beating other people on the tests. To get an A at MIT, you can't just study hard, you have to prove that you are better than most of the other students in the class. Are you sure you will be able to do that? </p>
<p>
[quote]
That, and getting one C in your college career isn't going to preclude you from getting into med school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But if it's in a premed-sequence science class, that C will hurt tremendously. </p>
<p>Look, guys, it seems to me that y'all simply don't understand just how much of a 'beauty contest' med-school admissions really is. The sad truth is that med-school admissions is very much a numbers game. Med-schools want to see high numbers above all else, including top grades and are far far less interested in how difficult it was for you to get those grades. Sad but true. Hence, if you want to maximize your chances of getting into med-school, you gotta do what you gotta do to get high grades, even if it means going to a lesser school like a CC to get them. The sad truth is, for the purposes of med-school admissions, it's better to go to a no-name school and get top grades than to take extremely difficult coursework at a difficult school and get mediocre grades. </p>
<p>Let me tell you guys a story. I know one guy who went to MIT, picking up double-degrees in chemical engineering and physics. These are 2 of the most difficult majors at MIT, and he was able to complete both. He also insisted on doing the most difficult coursework, including a lot of graduate work, because really liked it. In fact, I think by his junior year, he was already taking graduate courses in physics. Along the way, he got interested in medicine because of his experience in UROP with a a research project that was heavily focused on pharmaceuticals research. So he started doing the premed thing - i.e. volunteering at local clinics, taking the MCAT's, etc. The problem was that his grades were never really that good - something slightly less than a B average, primarily because of the difficulty of his coursework. As a result, he got rejected from every med-school he applied to. Yep, every single one. Not only that, most med-schools rejected him after the Central App, which means that he didn't even survive to the round 2 apps. </p>
<p>Think about that. This is clearly one of the most brilliant guys that I know. He ended up getting admitted to numerous extremely prominent physics and chemical engineering PhD programs, including ones at MIT, Stanford, Caltech, and others, and he is now doing very well in his PhD studies. But he couldn't get into even a no-name med-school. That was because his grades were not up to snuff, but the only reason that was the case was because he went to MIT where the coursework is extremely difficult, and he insisted on taking the most difficult coursework there. So of course he was not going to get top grades. The med-schools didn't care about any of that - all they cared about was that he didn't have top grades. At the same time, I saw the same med-schools admit other students who, quite honestly, aren't even worthy of holding that guy's jacket. </p>
<p>Now, let me dispel some possible objections. Some of you might say that perhaps that guy got rejected by the med-schools because of bad interview skills? Nope, can't be. Why? BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER EVEN INVITED TO INTERVIEW. So how would they know whether he has bad interview skills or not? Some of you might also be thinking that perhaps he didn't have enough volunteer medical experience or good enough recs, bad essays, or whatnot. Again, I say that is highly unlikely because for the most part HE WASN'T EVEN INVITED TO SUBMIT THE SECONDARY APP (the round 2 app), and it is in that secondary app that you present your recs, your essays, your volunteer experience and all that stuff. The med-schools rejected him before he even had a chance to present any of that. </p>
<p>The point is, the only thing the med-schools saw was that he didn't have great grades. They don't know why, and they don't WANT to know why. The only thing that mattered were his ostensibly subpar grades, yet that was apparently enough for them to make a decision to reject. At the same time, those same med-schools were inviting people who went to mediocre schools and took easy coursework and hence god top grades to come in to interview. </p>
<p>That's the ugly truth of med-school admissions. An easy A is better than a hard-fought B or C. That's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is. If you can go to a difficult school like MIT and get an A, then more power to you. But what if you can't? Like I said, most people in the MIT OChem classes are hard-working geniuses, and yet only a fraction of the people in those classes will get A's. True, you might be one of them, but what if you're not? In fact, what if you're one of that fraction that ends up with a C? In that case, I would argue that it would have been better for you to have taken OChem at a CC. Med-school admissions is, sadly, a game and you gotta do what you gotta do to win the game.</p>
<p>Sakky is right, completely. </p>
<p>An A at a CC may be an easy out, but it is far prettier than say the C from MIT. Med school is a game, and if you can back up your A at a CC in OChem with a solid BS section on the MCAT, Med schools won't question your ability. Also, by getting an A at a CC, med schools can't say that you couldn't have gotten an A at your home institution (be it MIT or wherever). You maximized your output in that particular class. It may look "bad", but it is common for people to make up some scheduling conflict or other erroneous reason to need to take the class elswhere. With a reason, med schools are likely to look past where it was taken, and focus on the performance.</p>
<p>In reference to the quote from Duke:</p>
<p>"However, if you take most of your required courses as a part of a challenging curriculum at Duke......."</p>
<p>What school would encourage its students to go take any classes (let alone pre-med classes) elsewhere? You all have to understand schools want their students to take all their classes at home, in this case Duke, because they lose money when students choose to take classes elsewhere. That's one angle of looking at it.</p>
<p>And honestly, one class at a CC isn't likely to even really be noticed a whole lot. Schools look at trends, and usually don't care too much about one class at a CC.</p>
<p>And Sakky, I know your experience must have been striking, but I've had friends get into med schools with one or two Cs in otherwise important classes. How did your buddy do on the MCAT, BTW?</p>
<p>I think that taking classes at a CC is a great idea, but I wouldn't worry TOO much about one or two low grades. Remember, your brilliant friend had a trend of substellar grades, not just a couple. I know that UCLA med, for example, sometimes doesn't even take the time to look at individual grades, just GPA and MCAT.</p>
<p>Have you considered auditing the class at the CC? Then take the class at university and get an A. I think this is what Jamimom had her daughter do.</p>
<p>I know a 2nd yr med student at a DO school. At one interview they actually asked her why a C in one of her chem classes. She did not get interviews at any of the MD schools she applied to.</p>
<p>Okay, I guess my experiences with my friends are just bizarre then. ::Shrug::</p>
<p>That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, it's so variable! Too bad we can't hope to get the actual figures on numbers of med students who got Cs in undergrad...</p>
<p>
[quote]
And honestly, one class at a CC isn't likely to even really be noticed a whole lot. Schools look at trends, and usually don't care too much about one class at a CC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yep, exactly, so to follow that line of logic, if you take a couple of classes at a CC, i.e. the entire OChem sequence, nobody is really going to notice or care. As said above, getting A's in OChem at a CC may be a copout, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting C's at a tough school. </p>
<p>
[quote]
How did your buddy do on the MCAT, BTW?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Something in the low 30's. That score should have been good enough to at least get him into the second round. Nope - for the most part, he wasn't even invited into the second round. His grades killed him. </p>
<p>You're also right about grade trends. His grades were never that good, for the simple reason, again, that he took extremely difficult advanced coursework. I'm positive that he did far better in that coursework than almost any other premed who did actually get into med-school would have done had they done the same coursework. But the med-schools didn't care about that. All they saw was that he had a trend of not-so-good grades. They didn't know that it was because he took extremely difficult coursework, and they didn't bother to find out. At least they could have asked for the secondary app and the interview where they could have asked about his grades. They didn't bother to even do that. Basically, they don't know and they don't want to know. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Have you considered auditing the class at the CC? Then take the class at university and get an A. I think this is what Jamimom had her daughter do.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Often times even this does not work. Again, you can know a LOT about Ochem going in and still wind up with a bad grade at a place like MIT or Caltech. That's how it is at those places. My brother, who went to Caltech, once told me how he knew a guy who had spent the whole summer reading the entire textbook for his fall Quantum Mechanics class, and he STILL ended up getting only a C+ in the class.</p>
<p>Sakky,</p>
<p>You said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Something in the low 30's. That score should have been good enough to at least get him into the second round. Nope - for the most part, he wasn't even invited into the second round. His grades killed him.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is really the reason why. I knew someone with a 3.7ish GPA at Cornell who didn't get any 2nd rounds 'cause of his lowish MCAT. On the flipside, I have a buddy at Stanford Med who had a 3.2ish at UCLA, but because of his 39 on the MCAT, got a second round.</p>
<p>I would almost say (based on my own anecdotal experiences) that the infernal MCAT matters more than GPA.</p>