Should I take O Chem in community college?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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This is really the reason why.

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<p>It is NOT the reason why. A MCAT in the low 30's is quite competitive - in fact, it is actually BETTER than the average of all matriculated medical students. Hence, he actually did BETTER than the average admitted medical student in the country.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgpabymaj1.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgpabymaj1.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, he wasn't demanding to get into Harvard Medical School. He applied to a bunch of no-name med-schools - and he couldn't even get into them! Why? Simple - his GPA was stellar, but again, that was true only because of the ridiculous difficulty of his coursework. But all those no-name med schools didn't care about that, all they cared about is that he had a relatively low GPA. They didn't know why he had that GPA, and they didn't care. </p>

<p>At the same time, those very same med-schools were inviting secondary apps from people who got the same MCAT score that he got, or maybe even a little lower, but who could present top grades because they took easy classes. Hence, from a testing standpoint, they are the same - they got roughly the same MCAT scores. However, the difference is that the guy who took the easier classes (and hence got higher grades) got the interview, whereas the guy who took the harder classes (and hence got lower grades) did not. So basically the med-schools were signalling that you should not take hard classes. I'm sure if that guy had decided to do an easy creampuff major at an easy school, he would have walked out with a stellar GPA and hence gotten at least an interview. Moral of the story - take as many easy classes as you can get. Sad but true.</p>

<p>Personally, I think what should happen is that GPA's shouldn't matter at all, and secondary round decisions should be made SOLELY on MCAT scores. That would eliminate the problem of screwing over those people who took difficult classes. But as long as the system is the way it is, then you should avoid difficult classes whenever possible. I wish it weren't true, but it is true.</p>

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<p>so, from all this, is the consensus hat it is OK (and in fact, probably a good idea) to take a science course or two at a CC this summer - it seems that it should not necessarily be O Chem, or another "required" science course, but perhaps one of the "extras" such as Anatomy, etc? Any other thoughts? thanks</p>

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<p>I can see this topic is stirring up some heated discussion.</p>

<p>First, as a current premed and senior who got a C+ in organic chemistry, I think - hope? - I'm in a position to discuss this. Second, at a school with one of the best advising teams in the country, I think I'm also in a position to pass along advice.</p>

<p>So here goes.</p>

<p>Don't do it. Don't take the community college course. Take organic chemistry at an institution that is of comparable integrity to your current institution.</p>

<p>This is despite my assumption (which might well be true) that sakky is 100% correct. Why? Because you simply don't know what you're going to get in organic chemistry at your home institution. Yes, if you're sure you're going to get a C, you'd have been better served doing your stuff at a CC. Can you guarantee that? Are you really 100% certain that no matter what happens, you will get a C at best? If so, I think I can tell you that medical school probably is not for you. If no matter how hard you try, you can guarantee that you will not be able to get even a B-, I think you should worry considerably about whether you ought to go to medical school.</p>

<p>There is also an MCAT score component. Will you learn the material adequately? While the organic chemistry on the MCAT is not horribly difficult, I suspect any CC will still dramatically underprepare you for the MCAT's most important section.</p>

<hr>

<p>Second, I think I can make a case that sakky's argument isn't quite as obvious as he makes it sound. Medical schools are most certainly NOT solely numbers driven, as many students with superior numbers and a great number of rejections can tell you. Numbers are important. Crucial. But they are not the only factor, as I'm sure sakky would agree.</p>

<p>Part of what they are trying to assess is what kind of person you are. I can honestly tell interviewers that I screwed up in first semester organic chemistry, but that I recovered for second semester, for biochem, and for the MCAT, and I can point to a track record that demonstrates that. I made a mistake, and I own it and explain it. I've been told by one medical school that not only was this not an obstacle, this was a driving factor in my admission. I don't mean to claim this as typical behavior. It's not. I just mean that this is the sort of mistake and liability you can recover from.</p>

<p>Can you do that when medical schools raise eyebrows at your - frankly - wimping out? Is this a mistake you can tell people that you own, take responsibility for, and have not repeated? It's an entirely different type of intentional choice, and I think this is difficult to explain and defend. Medical schools do not look for perfect people. They know there's no such thing. They do look for people who are looking for challenge, who are willing to step up to bat.</p>

<p>I still think sakky is probably mostly right, but I don't think the case is as clear cut as he makes it out to be.</p>

<hr>

<p>Finally, I want to urge you to remember that medical school admissions is only one component of becoming a doctor. You will still need to excel in medical school, and there are no shortcuts there.</p>

<p>What kind of person do you want to be? You can, indeed, run and hide, and maybe you'll actually be better off for it in the short run. But - and I hope this is not out of bounds for me to say - I would place more trust in a doctor who trusted in the idea of getting the best education he could possibly find.</p>

<p>That's the kind of young man I have tried to be. While it might not have always helped my career plans and status, I believe it will help my future. I don't mean to judge. Every situation, I know, is different. I only mean to explain the choices I've made and hope that something there will prove useful.</p>

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<p>PS: How do you do quotes? I can't figure that out.</p>

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While the organic chemistry on the MCAT is not horribly difficult, I suspect any CC will still dramatically underprepare you for the MCAT's most important section.

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<p>I'm not so sure I agree with you here. I know plenty of people who took o-chem at a CC and have no trouble on the MCAT. But, I do think that CCs are incredibly variable in terms of quality when it comes to these classes. I say shop around and if you do take a class at a CC, look for the one that is supposedly "good."</p>

<p>Quotes are easy, by the way. The tags are [ quote] Put your quote here [ /quote].</p>

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This is despite my assumption (which might well be true) that sakky is 100% correct. Why? Because you simply don't know what you're going to get in organic chemistry at your home institution. Yes, if you're sure you're going to get a C, you'd have been better served doing your stuff at a CC. Can you guarantee that? Are you really 100% certain that no matter what happens, you will get a C at best? If so, I think I can tell you that medical school probably is not for you. If no matter how hard you try, you can guarantee that you will not be able to get even a B-, I think you should worry considerably about whether you ought to go to medical school.

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<p>Personally, I think the BEST thing you can do is to take OChem at a school (whether regular or CC) that has a highly liberal drop policy. Some schools actually allow you to drop a class right up until the final. In an ideal situation, I would take OChem at such a school and see what your grade looks like right up until the final. The fact is, if you're getting a bad grade right before the final, you're probably going to get a bad grade for the class. So I would see what gauge what grade you are getting, and if it's a bad one, I would just drop the class. No harm, no foul. </p>

<p>My central point is, med-school admission are a game. You gotta do whatever you gotta do to avoid showing bad grades to the adcom. That means WHATEVER. If it means taking easy classes, then do it. If it means taking difficult premed classes AFTER you've already applied to med-school (so that the adcoms can't see your grades), then do it. If it means dropping classes in which you are going to get bad grades, then do it. There is no justice and no fair play when it comes to med-school adcoms. It's really every man for himself. Sad but true.</p>

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Moral of the story - take as many easy classes as you can get.

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<p>I dont know about that. It all depends on your ability. If you think you can do better than just taking easy courses than go for it. I think med schools would appreciate an A- avg in an engineering major more than an A avg by an english major. Talking about the extremes (A vs. C) is just confusing because the truth is you will MORE likely to get an average grade of say a B than to get an A or C and I would take a B at my Ivy over an A at a CC any day because it shows integrity and theres nothing to explain. </p>

<p>As for your friend...that story amused me because u brushed over the fact that the guy had LOWER THAN A 3.0 OVERALL GPA!! when you said that his "average was slightly less than a B". Your friend's case is just that of huberis... the people who take grad courses during their undergrad career are usually either going into industry or grad school for that subject....not med school because it clearly kills your GPA. If your friend is so awesome he should'v stuck with undergrad courses and done really well and then he would'v gotten accepted to every med school around. Sakky, that example was horrible...you just compared a guy who is afraid of getting one bad grade in one class to a guy who was doing badly all along because he was full of himself....its not the same thing. One B, or B- or even C+ will not kill you, but having ur GPA at below a 3.0 is fatal to ur med school career. In my view ur example doesnt apply here and doesnt serve the argument. </p>

<p>My advice is to first of all be honest with yourself and second of all to make an effort at your institution before being a cop-out. A class like orgo usually has alot of midterms so you can always know where you stand and the drop date is usually after the first midterm so if you are clearly pulling a C or lower in the class then you should probably be a copout (and have fun explaining it to med schools)...but if you do end up doing avg or above avg in the class then you did urself a favor by not running away from something just because you were scared.</p>

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I'm not so sure I agree with you here. I know plenty of people who took o-chem at a CC and have no trouble on the MCAT. But, I do think that CCs are incredibly variable in terms of quality when it comes to these classes. I say shop around and if you do take a class at a CC, look for the one that is supposedly "good."

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<p>I have to agree with this. I would furthermore point out that plenty of high-prestige schools teach OChem quite poorly. In fact, many of the big famous schools in general are notorious for bad teaching. My brother went to Caltech and enjoyed it, but he would be the first to admit that the teaching at Caltech was mediocre at best. In fact so much so, that many Caltech students choose not to go to lecture because they find that they learn more by just reading the book themselves. The bottom line is that you should not presume that an OChem class taught at a highly prestigious school is necessarily taught better or prepare you for the MCAT better than one taught at a no-name school or at a CC. Often times, this is false.</p>

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As for your friend...that story amused me because u brushed over the fact that the guy had LOWER THAN A 3.0 OVERALL GPA!! when you said that his "average was slightly less than a B". Your friend's case is just that of huberis... the people who take grad courses during their undergrad career are usually either going into industry or grad school for that subject....not med school because it clearly kills your GPA.

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<p>Yeah, a lower than 3.0 GPA - but only because he took extremely difficult coursework. Why is that ridiculous? He was good enough to get into a number of highly prestigious PhD programs in his field, because those programs respected the difficulty of his curriculum. But not the med-schools. Why not? It's because the med-schools don't care very much about difficulty. </p>

<p>Again, let me give you the situation. The guy got admitted into the PhD programs at MIT, Stanford, Caltech, and several other high-prestige programs. But he couldn't even get an interview at a no-name med-school. You really see nothing wrong with this picture? Nothing at all? Does that mean that a no-name med-school is supposedly "better" than the PhD program at MIT? I don't buy it. I can understand interviewing the guy and then determining that maybe he doesn't have the personal skills to be a doctor, or doesn't have the desire, or so forth. But not even granting him an interview? Come on. </p>

<p>What that tells me is that med-schools don't know about the difficulty of certain courses because they don't WANT to know about it. For example, when the MIT doctoral admissions committee sat down and reviewed his application, they saw that sure, he didn't have the best grades, but that's because he took some extremely difficult classes. The med-schools don't care. They don't know, and they don't want to know. All they want to see is good grades. </p>

<p>So you say that this guy should have just taken all the easier lower-level classes. That is exactly what I have been saying throughout this whole thread - the med-schools reward cowardice and punish bravado. They say that they want you to take challenging coursework, but they don't really mean it. Furthermore, since you say that this guy should have just taken easier coursework at MIT, don't you see that that's no different from me saying that some guys should just cop out and take easy coursework at a CC? It's the same principle. At the end of the day, you want to get A's, and if that means taking easier coursework, then so be it. Sad but true.</p>

<p>I personally don't understand how you can hold the position that the guy I used as an example should have just taken easier coursework in order to get better grades, but then you somehow dislike the notion of people taking premed classes at CC's in order to get easier grades. You are holding two mutually exclusive positions.</p>

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<p>No, no, sakky u dont get it and ur going too far with it. First of all its completely obvious and understandable why this guy got into good PhD programs in the field in which he was taking the coursework and not into any med school. The med schools looked at his stats and saw a guy who would make a great engineer but whose desire to become a doctor is very questionable since he showed a very very large interest in engineering. Unsurprisingly, this is more important to PhD programs in the field. I was saying take courses ON A LOWER LEVEL THAN GRAD COURSES. Of course you go ahead and take that to mean that i am encouraging taking courses at a CC but thats exactly what i'm not saying. You are an undergrad premed...take undergrad courses because you will clearly do worst in grad courses. Med schools CERTAINLY know how hard these courses are! Its just that its not what they are looking for and that is NOT to say that they are looking for people who take the completely opposite road and take classes at a CC....they are looking for people who do something they are interested in and challange themselves and dont just take the easiest road or stupidly and naively take a very highly difficult and specialized road that does show interest but also doesnt show very much accomodation to the med school "game".....again I am NOT saying that taking courses at a CC is good...it is actually very bad.....but taking grad courses at a hard school is also very bad. You shouldnt go to extremes...if you are doing the moderate thing you should be fine!</p>

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First of all its completely obvious and understandable why this guy got into good PhD programs in the field in which he was taking the coursework and not into any med school. The med schools looked at his stats and saw a guy who would make a great engineer but whose desire to become a doctor is very questionable since he showed a very very large interest in engineering. Unsurprisingly, this is more important to PhD programs in the field. I was saying take courses ON A LOWER LEVEL THAN GRAD COURSES. Of course you go ahead and take that to mean that i am encouraging taking courses at a CC but thats exactly what i'm not saying. You are an undergrad premed...take undergrad courses because you will clearly do worst in grad courses. Med schools CERTAINLY know how hard these courses are! Its just that its not what they are looking for and that is NOT to say that they are looking for people who take the completely opposite road and take classes at a CC....they are looking for people who do something they are interested in and challange themselves and dont just take the easiest road or stupidly and naively take a very highly difficult and specialized road that does show interest but also doesnt show very much accomodation to the med school "game".....again I am NOT saying that taking courses at a CC is good...it is actually very bad.....but taking grad courses at a hard school is also very bad. You shouldnt go to extremes...if you are doing the moderate thing you should be fine!

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<p>Oh really? Is that your story now?</p>

<p>So let me tell you the other book-end piece to the story. There was another guy I know at MIT who largely did the same thing as the guy I talked to before - took exceedingly difficult technical courses, including lots and lots of graduate-level work, especially in math. However, this person was a true genius and got very good grades. MIT has a few of these guys that are such geniuses that even the most difficult MIT coursework doesn't faze them. </p>

<p>So this guy ALSO applied to med-schools. And guess what? Every med-school that he applied to granted him an interview. And he got admitted to the majority of them. And yes, he also got admitted to a bunch of PhD programs, including the ones at Harvard and MIT. He's in the MD/PhD program at Harvard right now. </p>

<p>But forget about the Harvard MD/PhD. He only applied to a few MD/PhD programs. Most of the MD programs he applied to were straight MD programs, not MD/PhD programs. And he got into most of them. Even more importantly, he got interviews at all of them. </p>

<p>So maybe we can understand why this guy got into MD/Phd programs he got into. Clearly this is a brilliant guy. But why did this guy get all those med-school interviews, and a bunch of MD admissions, and that other guy not even get any interviews? Why? Shraf, you're now say that the first guy got rejected out of hand because all of his grad-level work displayed that he is not really interested in medicine, but rather interested in a PhD. But this second guy ALSO took a tremendous amount of graduate work and you would think was also signalling that he was suited for a PhD program. In fact, he should have been signalling that even STRONGER, because not only did he do a tremendous amount of extremely difficult graduate work at MIT, but he actually got top grades in it! So why was this guy interviewed and admitted? Shouldn't he have been rejected too? </p>

<p>Apply Occam's Razor and I think the simplest (and hence probably the most likely) explanation is that while both guys took highly advanced coursework to prep for a PhD program, the difference is that the second guy got top grades, whereas the first guy didn't. And like I said, what the med-schools really care about above all is good grades. If med-schools don't want to admit people who are gunning for a PhD program, then the 2nd guy should have been rejected everywhere too, or perhaps only admitted to the MD/PhD programs. He got admitted into many places. Explain that.</p>

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<p>well, it looks like my question stirred things up again.... </p>

<p>what i meant to ask was, if I decide I DO want to take a science course this summer at a CC - and it will NOT be O Chem, physics, or Bio - are there any science courses that anyone can recommend that WOULD be helpful to take at a CC in the summer (and thus not have to take during the year)?</p>

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<p>Sakky, I think we can probably take you and Shraf as being in agreement that getting KILLED in grad-level classes - and I can't otherwise describe a sub-3.0 GPA - is not a good idea. Still, I think it's a little extreme to suggest that that means you should go take courses at a community college.</p>

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<p>Mishdoob,</p>

<p>If you're not taking chemistry, biology, or physics, what science courses would be left??</p>

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<p>First to answer mishdoob1's question....biochem or some physiology class might be helpful and it would also be better to take them at a more prestegious school than a CC because you are taking them out of interest (supposedly) so you would certainly be learning more at a private institution rather than a CC...unless of course finances are an issue, then by all means go for the CC.</p>

<p>As for sakky, once again you are trying to distort things here. We all know that alot of people admitted to med school have higher degrees...like a masters and yet others worked in other industries so its not that they are not looking for someone with other interests and thats not what i was saying. Its just that this guy who got rejected from everywhere put taking grad classes in a certain field above his grades and his interest in medicine and applying to med school. As a result he was rejected. The fact that he did very badly ACROSS THE BOARD and hence ended up with a terrible sub-3.0 GPA does not lend itself to the notion that he was a "genius" but rather that he was quite full of himself and overextended himself. PhD programs in that field on the other hand will be more tolerant of this since he is pretty much gonna go in there and build on what he has learned in the grad courses. I really dont get what you are arguing in your last post....I didnt say that anyone who takes grad classes as an undergrad is automatically rejected but if you sacrifice your GPA for taking grad classes as an undergrad then you just come off as being insensitive to the process and completely full of urself.</p>

<p>Main point is, if you go above and beyond and do well it looks very good. But if you go above and beyond and do poorly it looks very bad. Getting a BS in Chem Eng. is hard enough in itself and if your friend could'v shown how much of a genius he was through doing that successfully he would'v been much better off. Its always better to play it safe so u can be able to have numbers to show. I mean off the bat you want to show competitive numbers before anyone delves deeper into your record...but if they see a 2.7 GPA right off the bat, they might not even bother investigating further why its that way. But if they see a sub-par 3.4 they might give the person a chance and check out y his gpa is lower than usual. Just the simple fact that you are taking grad courses doesnt make you a genius....taking them and doing well makes you a genius....taking them and doing poorly shows interest in the subject but doesnt tell med school adcoms anything about how smart you are and clearly the interest is much more appreciated by programs in the field.</p>

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<p>But don't you see, Shraf? You have just implicitly conceded my point, which is that the med-school admissions process places far too much emphasis on pure grades.</p>

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all know that alot of people admitted to med school have higher degrees...like a masters and yet others worked in other industries so its not that they are not looking for someone with other interests and thats not what i was saying. Its just that this guy who got rejected from everywhere put taking grad classes in a certain field above his grades and his interest in medicine and applying to med school.

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<p>There it is right there. Think about what you just said right there. Yeah, so he took difficult graduate level classes, and he didn't get top grades in them. So what? Why does that mean that he doesn't care about being a doctor? So you are saying that part of being a doctor means being very careful about your grades? Is that what you are saying?</p>

<p>If that is what you are saying, then you are saying exactly what I am saying, which is that in order to play the med-school game, you have to be very careful about your grades. So we AGREE on the fundamental point. Where we disagree is whether we think that is a good thing. I believe that that is a terrible thing that med-schools go around encouraging grade-grubbing and gaming of the process. You apparently think that that's a good thing about the process. In other words, while I decry the cowardice that the system rewards, you apparently want the system to reward cowardice. </p>

<p>If that's your position, then fine. As long as we're clear about it. </p>

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As a result he was rejected. The fact that he did very badly ACROSS THE BOARD and hence ended up with a terrible sub-3.0 GPA does not lend itself to the notion that he was a "genius" but rather that he was quite full of himself and overextended himself.

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<p>Did 'terrible' according to whose standards? According to the MIT profs, he did exceedingly well for an undergraduate. Yeah, he didn't get top grades, but that's only because he was competing against star graduate students in classes for whom, for most of them, was the only class they were doing in a given semester (along with their research). In fact, most of the MIT profs were extremely impressed that the guy was even able to SURVIVE the classes, such that they were willing to write him scintillating rec's explaining his grades. That's why he was able to get into so many doctoral programs. </p>

<p>So, again, I ask, 'terrible' according to whose standards? I would bet you that almost any other premed who took the classes he took would have just flunked out entirely. Given the circumstances he was in, he did excellently. It's just that his grades didn't show that. But his rec's certainly did. After all, if he was so 'terrible', then why were so many of his profs willing to recommend him? But the med-school adcoms don't care about that, now do they? </p>

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PhD programs in that field on the other hand will be more tolerant of this since he is pretty much gonna go in there and build on what he has learned in the grad courses. I really dont get what you are arguing in your last post....I didnt say that anyone who takes grad classes as an undergrad is automatically rejected but if you sacrifice your GPA for taking grad classes as an undergrad then you just come off as being insensitive to the process and completely full of urself.

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<p>Oh, that's "insensitive", is it? I think you should careful about who you are calling insensitive and full of oneself. Pot, meet kettle. The fact is, we have two guys who took exceedingly difficult coursework. Yet, one got into med-schools, the other didnt'. Hence, that COMPLETELY invalidates your previous assertion that anybody who takes difficult courses must obviously be going for the phD and is therefore not really interested in being a doctor. </p>

<p>What is DOES validate is that grades matter. But that's exactly what I have been getting at in this entire thread. Med-schools don't care about how difficult your courses are, they just care about grades. Hence, when given a choice, you should take easy classes, avoid difficult ones. That's what the med-school adcoms reward. It's sad, but it's true.</p>

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<p>ok, sakky u make my brain hurt.....</p>

<p>noone is arguing with u about whether or not grades matter...we all know they do. But it is one thing to totally blow off the process by taking GRAD LEVEL CLASSES and another thing to try to be a copout by taking CC classes. Those are the two extremes and are by no means recomended. But if you can take the grad classes and do well, by all means....it will certainly help, but to take the grad classes when ur not that prepared for them and do badly and then apply to med school, is a silly idea. And yes med schools do care how difficult your courses are as long as your numbers are still competitive. They especially care that you dont cop out of taking ur required prereqs at ur university. But if your numbers are nowhere near competitive (2.7) then you are not gonna be considered. I am taking a tough course and know its not the best idea, but a 3.6 GPA in that hard course still keeps me competitive at first glance but upon deeper inspection may carry more weight than a 3.8 as an english major.</p>

<p>However what you are arguing is that since someone tried the absolute extreme of taking grad courses and had a very bad GPA and got rejected from everywhere then everyone under the sun should just throw in the towel and take CC courses and get straight As because in ur mind that doesnt matter. But what i'm saying is that moderation is always the best policy and that you shouldnt take CC courses at all just as u shouldnt take grad courses....but that does not mean u shouldnt pursue a hard undergrad major if it interests you or if you can still have competitive numbers from it.</p>

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<p>Sakky, according to your logic, shouldn't we all enroll in CC's? Forget about taking some of our classes there - why not all?</p>

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<p>Ok... I'm so confused. What do you guys advise? Can someone give a short sparknotes summary of what that main point is?</p>

<p>Another question: Would it help if I took a class at a CC over the summer before I take the o-chem class at my university?</p>

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<p>I'll try to summarize.</p>

<p>Sakky's argument is drawn from his personal experience, and he's on record as believing:</p>

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My central point is, med-school admission are a game. You gotta do whatever you gotta do to avoid showing bad grades to the adcom. That means WHATEVER. If it means taking easy classes, then do it.

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<p>He argues - almost certainly correctly - that getting C's anywhere is really, really bad, and that an A at a CC is probably better.</p>

<hr>

<p>The rest of us - and I do think that's a pretty safe generalization - have argued that while C's are certainly not good, sakky's probably taking his point to the extreme if he's suggesting that going to a CC is a good idea.</p>

<p>That's extremely frowned upon by committees. No, probably not AS frowned upon as a C, but frankly, if you're sure you're a C-student at your home institution, why in the world are you a premed? Mistakes are one thing; predictable failure is another entirely.</p>

<hr>

<p>My advice? Be suspicious of shortcuts. They always seem to provide some advantages, but the people judging you aren't idiots. It will almost certainly come back to bite you.</p>

<p>Don't go to medical school in the Caribbean. Don't write your essays based on things you spent a couple of hours doing. And don't take your classes at a community college.</p>

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<p>Maybe someone else can explain this better; but my understanding is one needs letters of recs from your graduating institution. If you take premed requirements at a CC, will you find yourself in a position that noone will want to write that letter?</p>

<p>Also, you need to check. My S.'s college does not even accept CC classes for transfer credit.</p>