Should I take O Chem in community college?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>You can get the letters of rec from anywhere...unless your graduating institution has a premedical advisory committee, then you'll definately need one from them and they will frown upon shortcuts.</p>

<p>The point of taking classes at a CC (which of course i am against) is not that you need them to graduate so you dont even need to transfer the credits for them to count toward your diplomma if you are majoring in something that is non-science.</p>

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My advice? Be suspicious of shortcuts. They always seem to provide some advantages, but the people judging you aren't idiots. It will almost certainly come back to bite you.

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<p>That's very good advice!</p>

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noone is arguing with u about whether or not grades matter...we all know they do. But it is one thing to totally blow off the process by taking GRAD LEVEL CLASSES and another thing to try to be a copout by taking CC classes. Those are the two extremes and are by no means recomended. But if you can take the grad classes and do well, by all means....it will certainly help, but to take the grad classes when ur not that prepared for them and do badly and then apply to med school,

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<p>See, there you go again, with your notion of "doing badly". Who said that he "did badly"? If he really did so badly, then why were so many of his profs willing to write sterling rec's for him? In fact, the profs were extremely impressed that he was able to survive the classes at all as a mere undergrad. They couldn't in good conscience, give him the same grades as the graduate students in that class, but that doesn't mean that he "did badly" according to the profs.</p>

<p>You see, to me, there is a big difference between "doing badly" and "getting bad grades". Just because you don't get good grades doesn't mean that you are necessarily "doing badly". If he was really doing badly, then his profs would not be willing to recommend him. </p>

<p>That is, of course, unless you believe that doing badly and getting bad grades are always one and the same, in perfect lockstep. If you want to believe that, go right ahead. But I don't subscribe to that philosophy. Most premeds who took the classes he took would have flunked out quick. He didn't. </p>

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But if your numbers are nowhere near competitive (2.7) then you are not gonna be considered.

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<p>Yeah, but see, there you go again. Why shouldn't you be considered? Some classes are harder than others. Some profs, especially the advanced ones at MIT, think that a B or even a C is a really good grade. And they will happily write a rec explaining that grade for their students. But the med-school adcoms don't want to hear about it. </p>

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But if you can take the grad classes and do well, by all means

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<p>It's good to see that you have withdrawn your former contention that taking lots of hard classes will automatically put you out of the running for med-school because the adcom will see that and just think that you care about the PhD and not med-school.</p>

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The rest of us - and I do think that's a pretty safe generalization - have argued that while C's are certainly not good, sakky's probably taking his point to the extreme if he's suggesting that going to a CC is a good idea.</p>

<p>That's extremely frowned upon by committees. No, probably not AS frowned upon as a C...

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<p>My position is not extreme, because we all here, even shraf, agree on the same basic point, which is that you have to (sadly) avoid bad grades at all costs. If that means going to a CC, well, you gotta do what you gotta do. It's better than getting bad grades at your home institution.</p>

<p>Personally, this is not the way it should be, for the simple reason that grading systems vary greatly. At certain classes in certain schools, you really know demonstrate great mastery of the material, and still get a bad grade. At other classes at other schools, you can do very little work at all and know very little, and still get an A. Personally speaking, I have been on both sides of the equation - gotten bad grades in classes in which I was one of the best students of the class (because virtually everybody in the class got bad grades), and gotten excellent grades in classes in which I knew and did virtually nothing. Nor am I the only one - I know plenty of people who can tell you the same story. The problem becomes when you happen to take a predominant number of classes that are one or the other. Some people make an entire academic career out of cherry-picking the easiest possible classes at their school, where the profs are known to be easy and give out lots of high grades for very little work. </p>

<p>Which is why I think the REAL solution to this whole mess is to not look at grades at all. Instead, just design a better MCAT and just use that. The major advantage to that is that it is FAIR. Everybody takes the exact same test, so there is no issue with grade inflation, or people cherry-picking their way through easy classes, or that sort of gamesmanship. Either you know the material on the test, or you don't. It's clean. It's neat. If the current MCAT is lacking, then the answer is simply to design a better MCAT.</p>

<p>However, as it stands, med-school admissions encourages gamesmanship. If they insist on playing GPA games, then you should oblige. </p>

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but frankly, if you're sure you're a C-student at your home institution, why in the world are you a premed? Mistakes are one thing; predictable failure is another entirely.

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<p>Well, a lot of people don't "know" that they are C students until they actually get to their college, and then they find out how the competition really is. Let's face it. At every school, whether Harvard or the lowest 4th tier school, there are going to be some students who are doing poorly. By definition, 10% of the students out there are in the bottom 10% of their class. How do you know if you are going to be in that category? Answer - you don't, at least, not until you get there. Then you find out the truth. So what should these people do, just go and shelve their plans for medicine because they unfortunately chose the wrong school for themselves? I think it is perfectly appropriate for people like this to do whatever they have to do to put themselves back in the game. It's not a simple matter of "Oh, I chose the wrong school for myself, so I lose the game", and just rolling over.</p>

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My advice? Be suspicious of shortcuts. They always seem to provide some advantages, but the people judging you aren't idiots. It will almost certainly come back to bite you.

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<p>I'm going to step in here for this discussion. From what I've heard from other pre-meds and current med students, shortcuts are NOT the way to go. I agree with bluedevilmike here in that if you cannot get good grades at your home college, you're most likely not cut out to be a doctor. Isn't that the point of 'weed out' classes? To weed out those who aren't good enough? I realize that sounds very elitist, but med school admissions is elitist. Taking important classes at CC rather than your college speaks more about your character than anything else. Yes, you might argue, there are people who would be GREAT physicians but can't cut it in school. Unfortunately, that is how it works. </p>

<p>When you're about to be operated on, do you care that your physician has great personal skills but wasn't academically intelligent enough to learn the mounds of information necessary in modern medicine? I would say the vast majority of patients would say NO. I want a physician who has both qualities of being smart and personable. That argument that there are people who are great humanists but not scholars is specious. </p>

<p>Classes such as orgo and biology and chemistry have been selected by med schools as requirements because they KNOW you will need to have a solid foundation in those classes to be successful in med school. Getting good grades (As and Bs) in those classes shows them that you're willing to work hard and have the intellectual capacity and ability to do well. There is a reason to why they require those classes: to give you a chance to show your abilities. A C-student anywhere isn't BAD, but if you're getting C's in all your classes...it shows that medicine is probably not the right route for you. Sakky, one question, why must every pre-med become a doctor? There's not enough spaces, even if everyone got solid grades by taking classes at CCs. The AMA and AAMC regulate the number of seats allotted in med school based on the need of physicians. In fact, many people realize that medicine is not the right path for them; this is perfectly fine.</p>

<p>But, you know, that is why America is a great place to pursue education. There are many opportunities for you to succeed even if you don't do well in college. Let's say you graduate with a 2.5 GPA (which has happened) because, as sakky said, there are always people with low GPAs at colleges. Logically there has to be. So you graduate with a 2.5 GPA, but you love people and your desire to become a doctor hasn't waned. You enroll in a post-bacc program, a program designed specifically for you to improve your grades/MCAT. In such a supportive environment AND after learning the lesson of having to put forth hard work to get good grades (something you probably didn't do enough of during college) you WILL do well. Without a doubt.</p>

<p>1) you're more mature now and 2) you're in a supportive environment. That should help those who didn't work hard during college as well as those who tried hard in a super competitive environemtn like MIT or CalTech. In fact, some of these programs have "linkage" agreements with certain med schools where the med school will guarantee you an interview if you complete the post bacc prog with good grades/MCAT. What more could you want? There is no excuse for not getting into med school if you truly want to. It might take longer than you expected, but if you don't give up you WILL BECOME A DOCTOR. These days, the average age for med students is 23-24. Don't worry if you can't get in the first time. Keep trying, but don't take shortcuts in life. You're only setting yourself up for a big fall somewhere down the line.</p>

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<p>Wonderful post Stanford_dude</p>

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Well, a lot of people don't "know" that they are C students until they actually get to their college, and then they find out how the competition really is.

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<p>Here's the thing, though, sakky: if you're trying to tell kids to go to a CC rather than get a C+ at their home institution, you are in fact assuming that they know beforehand that they're a C+ student. It is students like that - who will predictably fail - whom I question.</p>

<p>Everybody fails eventually. I have a C+ in orgo. But for students who truly believe from the bottom of their heart beforehand that they will fail and are incapable of doing better, I believe they should seriously question their premedical goals.</p>

<p>Getting a C doesn't rule you out from medical school. I'm proof. But if you're the kind of student who knows for sure that you can't get anything better than that, no matter how hard you try, then perhaps you should rule yourself out.</p>

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<p>Wait a sec, BlueDevil...</p>

<p>You mean to tell me that people get higher than Cs in O-Chem? C'mon, stop with the lies, man!</p>

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<p>By the way, I just wanted to say to stanford_dude that I totally agree with the suggestion to do post-bac pre-med if you don't do so hot as an undergrad. I know at least two people who got themselves into med school that way.</p>

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<p>The only places people get higher than C's in O-chem are Harvard and community colleges (according to sakky at least).</p>

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<p>I'm not kidding! Even my smartest friends struggled in O-chem! I know all of ZERO people who got higher than O-chem, at privates or CCs. </p>

<p>Now, either I hang out with dumb doctors/med students/people, or O-chem is evil.</p>

<p>(I know the answer is the latter)</p>