sibling equity

Parents Forum
1

<p>(note:due to fairly specific info about our situation, I am remaining more anonymous than usual)</p>

<p>I have read a few posts lately where it's suggested that parents should spend fairly equal amounts for their kids' educations, and if one kid chooses a less expensive route that perhaps the "extra" money he or she is saving in tuition could go for extras. I suppose if all this money were sitting in the bank, that might be an option for some.</p>

<p>That's not the case for us. One of our kids lost his/her scholarship, and we made the parental decision to do what we needed to do to help this child graduate. Our second child hasn't lost the scholarship, so is costing us less. I guess a "fairness" solution would be to give the "good" kid more money. We don't have it, and this process doesn't stop at just 2 kids in our house.</p>

<p>Even if we HAD a pile of money in the bank that we had saved up for vast educational expenses, would that ethically require us to give each child an equal amount of money? </p>

<p>I'm uncomfortable with this line of thinking. If kid A participates in an expensive sport, and kid B runs around in the backyard for exercise, do we write a check to kid B to make up this difference?</p>

<p>In our case, kid A is choosing a much less lucrative field that kid B. Kid A will need more financial support getting started in life, while kid B is likely to out-earn us pretty quickly. Do we love kid A more? Obviously not. Will we probably spend more money on kid A? It's certainly looking that way. </p>

<p>We are doing the best we can to help our kids and meet their needs. This may require lifestyle changes on our part, as well as taking on debt. We aren't going to do more of that in the name of equity. </p>

<p>Thought? Comments?</p>

2

<p>I was one of the people who posted on the other thread about treating each kid equally. However, I did NOT mean it in the way you defined it. In other words, I did NOT mean spend the same amount on each kid. Treating them equally is not about a dollar amount but about doing the same for each kid. For instance, if one child is allowed to pick where they want to go and the other is given restrictions, that is different. But here's an example.....I have one child who is going to a 3.5 year graduate program but my other child is earning a terminal professional undergraduate degree and won't be going to grad school. The first child's education will therefore cost more money but there is nothing unfair about that. If second child wants grad school (she doesn't), we'd treat her equally by sending her. But because she is not going, doesn't mean she is now entitled to our spending the same on her. Same with ECs in high school. Both were fully supported in any programs and lessons they wanted to take. If one's lessons cost more than the other, so be it...as both had equal opportunities to get engaged in their interest areas. Same with undergrad school. We said we'd pay and it doesn't matter if one got a better aid package than the other (one is at a school that gave a merit award and one attends a school that doesn't have merit awards). The equal part is that both got to attend the college of her choice. Other ways they are treated equally are that we do not fund summer activities or housing now that they are in college. Prior to college, both were supported in whatever summer activities they chose. Both were required to work the summer following HS graduation. The ONE thing that we did a little differently is that younger D wanted to return for three weeks (usually attended six weeks) to her summer theater camp she had attended for 8 years, the summer after graduation and then planned to work and earn money (and she did) the rest of the summer but D1 had not gotten to go to any summer programs the summer after HS graduation and only worked. BUT as D2 said and we did end up agreeing, she graduated early at 16 and we had funded summer programs for sister through age 17 and so we did fund part of her summer after graduation since she was just 16 and she worked and earned a bunch the rest of the summer. The kids saw that as fair. Actually, I forgot one thing come to think of it. That same summer following younger D's HS graduation, was the summer after older D's freshman year at college which again, we don't pay for their summer stuff in college. My older D attended a six week program at Harvard for which she earned the money herself (and also worked the remainder of that summer) but I gave her money toward housing only because I did let younger D go to a three week program following her HS graduation and the other one had not and that seemed a fair way to deal with it.</p>

3

<p>I guess my perception in the other thread was that one child's options were limited, so the expensive school that was chosen was more in response to that child's needs than wants, while the other child had several valid options available.</p>

<p>As parents I think we all struggle to figure out what the right thing to do is, and then we struggle to do it. Usually hindsight is 20/20. I wonder if the folks with 6+ kids get it figured out by the time the baby arrives? We have 3, and it doesn't seem to have enabled us to figure it out.</p>

4

<p>My thoughts on this:</p>

<p>"One of our kids lost his/her scholarship, and we made the parental decision to do what we needed to do to help this child graduate."</p>

<p>In MY house if one of them lost their scholarship then my CHILD would need to do what it took to graduate. Not me.</p>

<p>And yes if that meant transferring to a school they could afford, or getting a job and then going back then that is what THEY would have to do.</p>

<p>As a single mom with 5 either in grad/undergrad school I live this everyday. Either they do it within the terms they signed up for or they find a new path. Their choices, their decisions, their consequences.</p>

<p>As far as equal treatment, equal in our house does NOT mean the same. If some received more resources (time, attention, money) based on needs and desires than that's the way it is/was. </p>

<p>Not up for discussion. (kiddos LOVE to hear that!)</p>

<p>No democracy here, my house, my rules.</p>

<p>Suze is much nicer than I, she actually knows whether her kids think things are fair or not. Me, don't know, don't care to know.</p>

<p>Might actually be even more opposite here. One of them (well, 2 now) have the capacity to earn and help contribute more to those not as capable. It is EXPECTED (without a word from me) for those with the ability to help those in the family who need the boost. This does range from finances, to connections, to opportunities, to tutoring....</p>

<p>They are all very close, talk several times a day even though they are scattered to the 4 winds right now. They might discuss between themselves what is fair but not with me. They know better.</p>

<p>My thoughts.</p>

<p>Kat
I know, meanie mommy!</p>

5

<p>"One of our kids lost his/her scholarship, and we made the parental decision to do what we needed to do to help this child graduate. Our second child hasn't lost the scholarship, so is costing us less. I guess a "fairness" solution would be to give the "good" kid more money. We don't have it, and this process doesn't stop at just 2 kids in our house."</p>

<p>I don't think that equal = fair. Different offspring have different capabilities and needs.</p>

<p>Our house rules are that if a student loses a scholarship that they were capable of keeping, then the student, not the parent will make up the difference. After older S -- who'd had a major bout of senioritis in h.s. -- went to college and flunked out due to partying, we set a house rule that if grades dropped due to senioritis, H and I would not pay anything for younger S's first year of college, and only would pay for college if afterward he maintained a 3.0 (well within his capabilities). </p>

<p>That S -- who didn't get around to applying to college senior year, and whose senior year grades were so low he almost didn't graduate -- spent a gap year with Americorps (living at home and paying rent), then went to his college of choice (paying for applications with his money) on merit aid, loans (his), employment, and money from Americorps. He got a 3.66 fall semester, and is expecting a decent average this semester. He has changed from being lazy and disorganized to a person who plans ahead, balances studies with productive ECs and work, and is very proud of his gpa.</p>

6

<p>There is a saying: "Fair is not always equal."</p>

<p>Google the saying (in quotes) and you will find that it is referenced in many sites on differentiating instruction for students and is even taught as a basic principle in some kindergarten classes.</p>

<p>Our philosphy is to do our best to give each of our children what they need. We don't make up the balance in dollars and cents. We don't keep track of hugs either. Sometimes one needs more than the other.</p>

7

<p>I think I posted in the other thread that the kids should get equal amounts, but afterwards I realized it didn't make sense. It's not my kid's fault if the best fit for one costs more than the best fit for another. It's not the older kid's fault that he's likely to get less aid than when two are in college at once. So I agree with Soozie, you have to try to give them equal opportunities. I had a quote once (supposedly by Th. Jefferson, but I have never been able to confirm the source), "There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people.". We all have different talents and unfortunately some talents are more expensive than others.</p>

8

<p>I have a lot of kids. I would go insane if I had to equalize everything...you just have to go with your parental instincts. My younger daughter used to cry when her older sister was invited to sleepovers and she wasn't but of course I let the older one go anyway because it was better for the younger one to learn that she didn't have to get everything her sister did than for the older one to have no social life. You'll make the right choice!</p>

9

<p>"My younger daughter used to cry when her older sister was invited to sleepovers and she wasn't but of course I let the older one go anyway because it was better for the younger one to learn that she didn't have to get everything her sister did than for the older one to have no social life. "</p>

<p>Amen.</p>

<p>One of my college roommates when she was growing up had only been allowed to do social things if her 2-years younger sister was invited, too. I felt sorry for both of them, and still feel sorry for both of them.</p>

10

<p>It was a wise man who said that there is no greater inequality than the equal treatment of unequals.
Author: Felix Frankfurter</p>

<p>Each child is different and you do your best to support them each to develop the skills and talents they have.
I was raised in a family of five kids. Our parents couldn't pay for college but, growing up, I knew I would go to the local university and live at home so I could afford it myself. My older siblings did the same. When it came time for the two younger siblings, one started at community college but left after a semester to work fulltime and the other pursued the fire department and training there. Parents could have easily required each of us to go through 4 year universities but that wasn't the best path for two of the kids. I never realized that even though I felt they were pushing me at times, they knew it was something that I could do. For my sister, they supported her and helped her find a successful career that she loves and probably makes more than I do now :)</p>

11

<p>NSM - I completely understand where you are coming from. I felt the same way.</p>

<p>This wasn't an easy decision. In fact, the kid who lost the scholarship toughed it out on loans and working for a year (we withdrew all financial support, and child chose to stay in school). It was after that (disastrous, grades-wise) year that it became clear to us that kid A would not be able to get a college degree under those circumstances (there are other factors involved here that I really can't share). So we made the difficult decision to pay. The good news is that kid A is 1) making great grades, 2) extremely appreciative of the support being provided, and 3) likely to graduate in the foreseeable future. Also, Kid B saw what kid A went through, and is making a tremendous effort to do otherwise.</p>

<p>One other thing I just remembered - kid A will graduate with student loans to pay, even though we are helping now, and kid B is likely to graduate debt-free (hope, hope, hope!!)</p>

12

<p>So glad that things worked out for your student.</p>

<p>My older S by his own choice never went back to college. However, at age 24, he is supporting himself and living independently thousands of miles from home. I am grateful to a CC parent who pointed out to me that even though S hasn't returned to college, by living independently and supporting himself, he has accomplished something that many parents are still dreaming of for their college offspring who are around my S's age.</p>

13

<p>twinmom I was going to say "fair is not always equal" too. No shock that it came from another mom of twins : How many times have you had to explain that to the kids? HM</p>

14

<p>^ ^ Hmmmm.... yesterday was number 9,576,843.</p>

<p>Seriously, we repeatedly tell them what benefits one often benefits the other. It's one family, one pot. When one won a scholarship, we all celebrated. It helped us fund the other's more expensive school.</p>

15

<p>In our house it's also fair, but not equal. Even though they are 5 years apart, they have same rules for when they could date, IM, internet access...We would pay for any EC, but they was a minimum commitment requirement. We are paying full fare for our older daughter's college. If the younger daughter is fortunate enough to get a scholarship someday, I don't think we would be inclined to give her the difference. But we wouldn't press her to go to any school because of money because we didn't do that to our older daughter.</p>

16

<p>We have a really large family and I learned years ago that trying to treat everyone equally was impossible. Each of our children are individuals with different talents and different needs. Our goal is for each of our children to know we love them unconditionally and will do everything we can to help them. In our family, that does not mean we'll make things as easy as possible for them. Sometimes it means we'll make things harder for them if the help they need is character-training.</p>

<p>I think the critical thing is to teach children to rejoice with their siblings' successes and sympathize with their failures. When everyone is on the same team, the resentment doesn't seem as common. For example, we've had a really tough year financially and I was apologizing to one of our children for not buying him new shoes earlier. I wanted to explain why I'd bought them for our older son first. The younger child interrupted me and said, "Oh mom! Don't worry about that! I want ____ to look sharp for his college visits so he can get a scholarship. It's important! I understand - I'll get what I need later." Made me cry. It takes a tremendous amount of work to build sibling loyalty, but it's worth it.</p>

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<p>I'd go nuts calculating what I was spending for one vs the other. I don't think treating them equally means, giving them equal financial support either. It's really a catch as catch can situation with multiple kids and limited resources. You do what you can at the time. You may not be in the situation to help or have helped another child when they were there. You do the best you can and make the best decision you can at the time.</p>

<p>I hear of parents bailing kids out when it is clearly not a good idea to all not emotionall invested, and I hear of parents clamping down and letting the kid fail or bail when it might be a good idea to get involved if you could. You have to be there and understand the nuances of what is happening. Sometimes letting a kid fail is NOT a good idea. Sometimes it is. These things don't go by rules. </p>

<p>I think kids who take a smoother path and do what they are supposed to and make it pretty much on their own are at great advantage just from having the discipline and demeanor to do what they did. It's going to be a rougher road for the one who flubs a semester, loses aid, makes mistakes. I like having that degree in their pocket, however, because they at least are at that point when they finally straighten up.</p>

<p>My brother was a real screw up in his last years of college and graduated only because my mom was a real pushover for his excuses. But he did get that degree and years later it has paid off. There are kids whose parents played hardball, and none of those I know ended up finishing college, and they are still aimlessly wandering through life. I know that is not always the case, but for some of these bottom feeders, just getting that danged piece of paper is an accomplishment that you may get just during those short early years. They mess up their lives in other ways to prevent going back to school later. I know several kids in this situation. At least when all the dust clears, these kids who have a college degree can start from that point.</p>

<p>Again, I stress that the details are often what indicate the best course to take. I have no intention of trying to figure out who cost the most in this family and try to even it out financially. Unless some super catastrophic thing occurred that really took our assets for one kid, I would treat them all the same in the end which would be in our will. And that "SCT" would not be college.</p>

18

<p>We told our kids they would graduate debt free and we would fund up to the amount of the state flagship- if the flagship costs varied over the years, so be it; if one got merit awards, that saved us money, not the kids. If one wanted to do private, they would either pay out the additional in loans or do CC then private to equal out the expenditures.</p>

<p>As to activities, etc. For off campus housing we budgeted the same as we would pay for the dorm at their school, if they could save money, great, if they needed a job, fine. One chose more roommates and saved money for travel, one had her own room and was always broke- their choice. The maount was based on the dorm costs we would pay at their school, not some set amount.</p>

<p>It felt fair.</p>

<p>As to extra activities, those were dealt with as they arose and yes success in school and value of activity made a difference in our choice- "I have a 2.0, can I go to Cancun for spring break?" would be a not on my dime......I have a 3.5, can I go play for my college national championships (required parent funding) or a travel team?" would have been a yes. Study abroad would be a yes.</p>

19

<p>cpt raises some really good points, one of my Ds made some mistakes, we could have played tough love or been softies, instead we took the middle of the road path. she did cost us more than she should have, but it was okay. The critical factor was giving her some tough love choices- you can go do your own thing or you can do this, in this way, with our support- your choice and then she had buy in to the choice made to do everything our way. She was kept on a short leash until we saw that her choices were better and the one bad series was an aberration for her. And most importantly she got her bachelors and is in grad school, that one mistake is in the past and we bonded as a family over it- not easy, but we did.</p>

<p>(if you are wondering, she chose poorly and got in a lousy relationship which went stalker crazy, the stalking was not her fault, but the guy was such a loser from the get go that we had to evaluate all her decision making capabilities ;))</p>

20

<p>Not only do different kids need different things, but family circumstances change. Do you deny child #5 piano lessons because you couldn't afford them when child #1 wanted them? I do the best I can for my kids. It may or may not be enough-- but we all have limited resources and that's not just $.</p>