<p>No. They read the TITLES they favor. It's a small judging community. How can they possibly evaluate 1600 plus projects in 14 days? The process is flawed and biased.</p>
<p>You sound spiteful highsea. Are we to assume that you are angered at not being chosen? I personally would sympathize with you. Siemens seems very biased towards projects dealing with medicine and biological sciences. Extremely few math or physics projects are chosen as semifinalists. Similarly, STS requires loads of paperwork which reflect intellectual potential, seeming that they are more interested in choosing better people, rather than better projects. I think the only fair competition is ISEF which does not require GPA and such, and shows equality to all categories.</p>
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Siemens Completion is obviously way more biased than Intel.
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<p>Actually, Intel has a similarly long list of semifinalists and stuff from New York, I think even more than Siemens. This probably has more to do with the fact that there's a lot more opportunities to do research in New York (and other similar states) than other places and a therefore higher percentage of applicants from New York.</p>
<p>Well according to the Siemens Foundation website, 1205 projects were submitted. I think, highsea08, that you forgot to consider team projects. </p>
<p>I'm not from New York but I did my research there (Long Island, specifically), and I'm pretty sure that virtually every LI high school has a research program that encourages their students to submit projects to science competitions. NY is its own region and therefore has more winners than any other state due to the sheer number of applications coming from there. I don't think Siemens is biased so much as it selects winners in proportion to applicants. </p>
<p>I agree with 1012, abstracts are usually the first to be subjected to judging. You can't really judge a project based on its title; they're experts for a reason. One project last year that won regional finalist or something was titled "Design Of A Novel Video System To Assure Safe Cooking Of Hamburgers In Commercial Kitchens." If the judges were as biased as you make them out to be, I doubt this would have passed the first round of examination.</p>
<p>Highseas, you can't win this one. Sorry you seem to feel bitter. Siemens and Intel divide up the papers and send them out to specialists in the various areas. In both competitions, more than one evaluator reads the papers. Students must submit multiple copies of the paper for just this reason.</p>
<p>Your point that it's harder to make to the next level at Siemens is patently false. Each region has five individuals and 2-3 team projects (which may have 2-3 members each) selected as Regional Finalists. The Midwest Region, which holds its Regional Finals at Notre Dame, which, so far as I know, has not had a seismic shift to either coast, has 50 (out of 311) SFs and 13 (out of 96) RFs. Only one winner from the individual and from the team Regional Finals for each region go on to the National Finals. New York can't dominate because it gets the same allocation of spots as the Midwest Region (and each other region), which in turn is proportional to the number of applications submitted. </p>
<p>In contrast, at Intel, one is competing against a national pool the entire way through. If there is geographic overrepresentation, that's where it's more likely to show up. Last year, both Siemens and Intel had at least half of the projects related to bio or chem. To advance in one of those topics, your project had better be darn stinkin' good. </p>
<p>Now, if you would like to advocate for more funding of PUBLIC math/science programs that prepare kids for the challenges this country faces, I am more than happy to join you. </p>
<p>BTW, the title of my son's paper was not something that would win awards for creativity. Trust me. The title was BORING.</p>
<p>1012, if you are a regional finalist, congrats! If there are other productive questions/comments, I am glad to answer what I can, either here or via PM.</p>
<p>To reiterate my advice to folks with math/physics/CS/engineering projects: make sure that you can communicate your project in such a way that bio/chem people can understand. Know your audience.</p>
<p>What i must say is that Siemens is NY is much harder than some other states. I live in NY btw. Our school had 4 Intel Semi and 2 Intel Finalists last year, but only one of the Intel Finalists got Siemens semi-finalist. </p>
<p>As CD said, 1012, if you are a RF then congrats! I only made SF</p>
<p>CD,</p>
<p>A RF. Thanks for the advices.</p>
<p>If indeed there were 1200+ paper submissions this year, how many judges reviewed papers? If each paper has three reviewers, then there would have been at least 3600+ reviews. Now explain to me, how could Siemens has the manpower to ensure adequate and RESPONSIBLE reviews for each paper submitted by the deadline? There were only 14 working days between 10/01 to 10/24 (deducting processing days).</p>
<p>I am simply expressing my opinion and I am entitled to. We all wish the process to be fair and we know it could be unfair. If none of us raises any doubts and sugarcoats everything, then nothing will be improved. Why should everyone simply accept their loss after years of hard work? If a paper has been worked on for many years, it deserves RESPONSIBLE EXPERT reviews from Siemens Foundation. There should be no abstract scanning, no title scanning. This is not SAT multiple choice test which allows machine scan. If Siemens does not have the resources to ensure expert review for each and every paper, then it should reevaluate it’s process.</p>
<p>Form the competition schedule you can easily tell Siemens does not have the manpower to review 1200+, 15-20 pages serious scientific paper in a few working days. </p>
<p>The judging system is flawed and biased. You can clearly see the favoritism in the result.</p>
<p>Hmmm... so back to why this thread was started, what were your projects on?</p>
<p>All I know is that if a paper has been published in a scientific journal after years of hard work, it should stand a chance competing against NY region. More importantly, it deserves RESPONSIBLE EXPERT review from Siemens foundation. It seems impossible for Siemens to have the manpower to review 1200+ scientific paper in a few working days (10/01 to 10/24). </p>
<p>As many of you know, any paper submitted to scientific journals requires months/years of reviews before publishing.</p>
<p>If this is a lotto system, shouldn't we all be told at the first place? Then we have a choice to decide whether to pursue the competition or not. If judges and Siemens favor certain topics/regions, should it be known as well?</p>
<p>First of all, your 1200+ projects and 3600+ reviewers point is just wrong. The project had three different reviewers, not three different reviewers for each project. It did not mean that each reviewer read one and only paper. </p>
<p>And to a certain extent, you're right. Unlike Intel, which takes the top projects across the nation, Siemens is regionally based filling in limited spots. That means that projects that become semis in Intel are not always semis in Siemens. But that's how Siemens does its choosing, and there's nothing really you can do about it.</p>
<p>@PKWsurf21: My project was titled, "An Efficient Asymmetric Image Compression Algorithm for Mobile Devices." Yes that means that my project was pure computer science, not med/chem.</p>
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your 1200+ projects and 3600+ reviewers point is just wrong
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I said 3600+ reviews not 3600+ reviewers. There’s a difference here.</p>
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But that's how Siemens does its choosing, and there's nothing really you can do about it.
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<p>No. There’s a lot you can do. Not for me, not for this year. But for the future aspiring scientists. </p>
<p>If you perceive something is unfair, there’s always things you can do as an individual. You can complain, you can raise awareness and you can discuss. What’s the worst is to accept what’s been thrown at you. This is a national competition and it should be held to the national not territorial standard. It should be fair to each and every hardworking student from LA to NY and Texas to North Dakota. </p>
<p>New York is only one state in America, there are the rest 49 of us, why should NY be a region of it’s own? Why shouldn’t Siemens recruit more judges from middle America? The universities here are certainly ranked higher than the ones on Long Island.</p>
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unless you were published in a nature/science comparable
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<p>Sadly, to your disappointment, the answer is 'YES'. It's a high caliber national scientific journal, not as crappy as you thought.</p>
<p>By the way, I am in no way near NY, we have cows and pigs here.</p>
<p>interesting discussion going on here...though highsea, i dont think new york is held to a different standard. from what CD posted, new york is its own region because of the entry numbers. thats it. no coastal elitism.</p>
<p>new york projects are not somehow more rigorously graded, its just that because there are more new york projects - siemens only has to make it a one state region to get the same number of projects, both good and bad ones. in the midwest, it has to draw from a bunch of states to get the same number, both good and bad. the good projects are the ones picked...new york isnt being held to a special, extremely difficult standard. </p>
<p>where does it say siemens only uses new york judges?</p>
<p>EDIT: sorry i deleted my previous post - i read your post and decided i understood your argument, as well as where you were coming from.</p>
<p>9ball9, I see favoritism, I see carelessness and I see bias in Siemens competition. My main argument is that there’s no way Siemens has the manpower to fairly judge 1200+, 15-20 pages scientific papers from 10/01 to 10/24. </p>
<p>Yes, high school paper can be published in high caliber national journal. It takes years of hard work and aspiration. If Siemens is a high standard national competition, then it should have it’s own process to support it’s reputation. </p>
<p>SAT scores, machine scanned, take three weeks to be released. Siemens paper, not college 400 words essays, can not possibly be expert judged in roughly 14 working days. What does this tell us?</p>
<p>By the way, entry number should not dictate the selection of a region. Region is based on geographic concept not numeric concept. Siemens/collegeboard should encourage more heartland kids to compete by defining a region a real region not a state like NY.</p>
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By the way, entry number should not dictate the selection of a region
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If that were true, then we would see more people like you (no offense). </p>
<p>I believe the procedure is to read the abstract FIRST, not the entire paper. If they like the abstract, then they read your paper if they like your abstract.</p>
<p>Mind you, the abstracts are at max 200 words.</p>
<p>Though I don't think the process is flawless, I don't think you give the other entrants enough credit highsea08. I understand that you have some quality work (as it was published), but many other kids also have very quality work. I personally know two regional finalists, both are absolutely brilliant and have also been working very, very hard on their respective projects. In fact, one has yet to start on his college applications since he is so engrossed in his work! </p>
<p>I also wanted to point out that your SAT processing example is not valid since Collegeboard processes some hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of scores for each SAT taken. The turnaround time for Siemens is quite remarkable, but I do not that automatically means that Siemens reviewers must rush-read and favor fancy titles/regions and whatnot.</p>
<p>Highsea - I respect your achievement. However, after read through your "complains", it seems to me that you may not be very familiar with the competition. Would it be possible that you did not follow certain rules? If yes, your paper will be disqualified without seeing any reviewers.</p>
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I also wanted to point out that your SAT processing example is not valid since Collegeboard processes some hundreds of thousands, if not millions
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<p>With today’s machine processing speed, 3 million tests (roughly the senior graduating this year) can be processed in a few days. SAT essays do not require expert readings.</p>
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If that were true, then we would see more people like you (no offense).
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If kids here are winning, then you would have seen more people like me participating because of the positive reinforcement.</p>
<p>If a paper can be published in a high caliber journal, it’s abstract should stand a chance competing against the abstracts from NY high school class.</p>
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The turnaround time for Siemens is quite remarkable
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No. This tells you:
1) Not each and every abstract is EXPERT reviewed.
2) Your years of hard work is randomly judged
3) The process is rushed
4) The so called expert may not have the true expertise in your area due to the limitation of the process.</p>