<p>reika, not many RJ students? are you sure? maybe you just didn't know they were from RJ.. i was there myself and i knew several other people were there as well. :)</p>
<p>tuna, i hope you went for the suntec fair, it would have helped you a great deal instead of talking to us CCers. (for one, it's much more effective asking questions there straight).</p>
<p>reika said "not as many HC ppl as RJ ppl". which means there were more RJ people.</p>
<p>so who else was at experience today? i mean the CC-ers (btw fiona_ is having a nice time in hungary now)</p>
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so that you could come back and belittle us through the safety of online discussion forums.
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<p>Oh ho ho ho .... if you google me you know that I am far from anonymous. If you actually knew me you will know that I have been questioned by the Internal Security Department for what I have said online before -- it is not about the safety of anything. If I could say it to your face, I would. </p>
<p>But the privileged class that dominates here tends to be blind to Opposition issues and issues affecting the working class anyway. </p>
<p>These are not my criticisms -- they are criticisms that one third of the country has expressed through the polls. </p>
<p>Oh my bad. I mean, one third of the little over one half of the electorate managed to vote, because the government made ridiculously-strict disqualification rules to bar opposition members from entering walkover constituencies. </p>
<p>And I hope that at least some of the privileged here are at least aware of Singaporean political blogs like Gayle Goh's (now archived), mr brown's, Mr Wang's, etc. </p>
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I would love to see you quantify or at least qualify your criticisms above.
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<p>Start with looking at the demographic statistics of Singapore, and start with its Gini coefficient. Look at how the government treats labour economics...</p>
<p>The thing is, the civil rights issues have probably never bothered most of you because of the privilege and class your family background has brought y'all since birth. </p>
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and about how much more enlightened you are than the rest of us to have left Singapore for America
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<p>I have not made the decision yet. My question was genuine. </p>
<p>Why should a student who has found academic success in the States, and with it, economic success, come back to a quasi-totalitarian regime?</p>
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Why go to a country that values your civil liberties by wiretapping you, or gives Caucasians more rights and privileges than you? Why go to a country that still actively and consciously practices racial discrimination (racial quotas, stratified treatment of the races even in college admission) under the guise of "racial equality"? Why go to a country where there is no civilian oversight over the burgeoning military expansion or unsustainable external debt, or to a country whose foreign policy effectively consists of screwing other countries which gets in its way? Whose current president is known to hold active contempt for the "middle class"?
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<p>But at least the president is ridiculed by over half the country ... LKY is a public sacred cow in Singapore. The personality cult that surrounds him is not that unlike the personality cult that surrounded Mao Zedong. </p>
<p>Do you realise, I am not blind to the problems of the US? I already know that the US' problems are more massive than Singapore's. But the racism in Singapore is worse: in my secondary school years, I explored anti-Americanism because I was constantly taunted by the ever-privileged boys of ACS for the grave crime of not knowing my racial place by talking with an American accent as a yellow-skin. I am highly aware of, for I have experienced it myself, the prejudice and alienation that some Americans tend to exert, especially in a state that is over 90% white. I have been on both sides of the fence, and crossed many times.</p>
<p>But at least Americans see a problem. At least the elections are less of a farce. If y quantifies the per capita magnitude of national problems, Singapore's y may well be smaller, but at least the US has a more negative y'.</p>
<p>screwitlah: See, I am not sure if you get it. I have been fiercely nationalistic for both countries. The perfect patriot in American elementary school; disillusioned in Singaporean upper primary, in Singaporean secondary school I extolled the virtues of Singapore over America's.</p>
<p>There is no need to preach to the choir, which is why I praise Singapore and criticise America in front of Americans, and criticise Singapore and praise America in front of Singaporeans. Why praise America in front of Americans and praise Singapore in front of Singaporeans? They already know the virtues of their own country. The marginal utility to one's speech in that case tends to zero. </p>
<p>My question is genuine. How can a question of where international students' ultimate hope and loyalty reside be impertinent?</p>
<p>just sidetracking abit...how is a US bachelor's perceived in Singapore? what is generally the starting pay of a fresh graduate with a US bachelor's? will cum laude (or above) make any difference?</p>
<p>It depends on which university you got your degree from, your major and your intended area of work.</p>
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The thing is, the civil rights issues have probably never bothered most of you because of the privilege and class your family background has brought y'all since birth.
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<p>there will always be elites in a society, the impt issue is how they are determined, whether by birth, by race, or by ability....understandably, every system is imperfect and may lead to a self-perpetuating cycle at times, but to someone like me whos from a working class family (and many friends i have who come from underprivileged backgrounds, read single-parent blue collar families), being able to work our way up into the ranks of the elites, being able to progress up the social ladder and better ourselves via our abilities, your comments are nothing but rantings of an unappreciative individual</p>
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But the privileged class that dominates here tends to be blind to Opposition issues and issues affecting the working class anyway.
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<p>where else in the world are u able to find such quality and affordable housing? have u even lived in a HDB before? do u even know what it is like to have to worry about rent and your landlord evicting you? where in the world do u find effective pension systems like the CPF? (guaranteed 10% returns and additional contributions from employers) where do u find developmental credits? (perhaps it doesnt matter to you, someone who's rich enough to move over to the states, but to alot of working class blue collar families they're of more help than u could ever imagine) efficient public transport system? able to walk home late at night w/o worrying about your safety? not feeling discriminated becoz u're of a different race than the majority? </p>
<p>u're feeling sore ONLY because u were taunted for having an american accent, pls dont blame your experiences and inability to excel on the whole system, it just reflects badly on your personality, and reinforces the idea y u didnt fit in here</p>
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But at least the president is ridiculed by over half the country
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<p>yet he got re-elected....dont get me wrong, i'm no fan of SG's political system, but at least we didnt get a low-intellect warmongering cowboy elected into office whose only achievements have been the trampling on human rights and the tripling of oil prices</p>
<p>in defense of galoisien.. I don't think he's that wealthy, you can find out about that from his other posts. </p>
<p>talking about Singapore.. It's far from perfect, but there are shortcomings of Singapore (the very competitive nature of Singaporeans which leads to a very high stress level, mostly) I'd gladly accept for better security and political stability, something that I definitely cannot get in my home country.</p>
<p>Economical comfort and stability without civil and media freedom? I'm going somewhere where the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Oh, and did I mention national service?</p>
<p>but galoisien's hardly on the same level with the underprivilieged he professes to be in touch with....</p>
<p>I agree with the flaws about SG, but i think most ppl have an unrealistic idea of western liberal democracies and adopt an overly cynical attitude towards SG....even though I myself am planning to leave SG for HK, i sincerely appreciate wat SG has done for me, wat it has given me (and while i had been adamantly opposed to NS, its really not that bad once u've gone thru it)</p>
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<p>In my Singaporean life, I have lived nothing in but an HDB flat. I loathe condos and I think spending money on such extravagance is foolish, and I love a strong reliance on public housing and public facilities. </p>
<p>But in Singapore, you don't even have any real property rights over your own property -- my last HDB estate (near Fairfield Primary School) was demolished to make room for some new commercial development or something. And then of course, you have the government breaking up opposition HDB estates just to scatter the dissenting voters and destroy their power ...</p>
<p>Why build up all your life towards nothing, where nothing is sacred for the government to take? </p>
<p>My mother has NO CPF, so whatever the government offers in that area is quite useless anyway. Want to know why? Because my mother barely made enough to pay for our living expenses. My mother, mind you, was involved in the HDB housing project herself in the 1980s shortly after polytechnic. Maybe I should also refrain from speaking of a divorce that ruined the family finances because the court system (on both sides of the Pacific) allowed an unfaithful and abusive "father" (who ought not to be called one at all, and who was certain to eventually lose the case) pursue his frivolous motions where upon his motions to confiscate our house worked. The thing is -- neither party received any money with it, because it was all spent on legal expenses with no authorities stepping in as the case destroyed the family finances hahahaha. Now, we have no home! Very lovely indeed! </p>
<p>Bridgehead, if you are a fellow person who constantly lives in fear of eviction, then perhaps we should be allies rather than opponents. (My current landlord only allows my family stay on the lot only because of human sympathy. My plan is to complete my studies, work on paying my own debts, and then repay my family's accumulated debts.) </p>
<p>Now mind you, I had very little trouble with neighbourhood school students -- all my conflicts for some reason tend to be from the elite top-scorers-in-PSLE kids. </p>
<p>I once viewed both America and Singapore with rose-tinted glasses. </p>
<p>My father was born into a duck farm near Kuala Lumpur and discovered electronics as a hobby in the 1970s; we were only allowed to come to the United States with an immigrant visa (and later a green card) because the company he worked for could not find any other American to do the job. That's why my family initially came to the US. My father had a pretty small salary before he came -- and if the US salary isn't bigger, no reason to come over, right? There were two years of paperwork hell to go along with the company-paid immigration expenses.</p>
<p>I am most sympathetic to the plight of working-class students who want to go overseas and I find it worrying that there is barely any sort of real financial aid programme for such students, not even for their own country. Singapore is afraid of losing "talent" -- but it has tried to keep talent in by using a paradigm of crude and economically inefficient financial incentives rather than creating any sort of environment that would be attractive for the intellectual. </p>
<p> [quote=lisieux] talking about Singapore.. It's far from perfect, but there are shortcomings of Singapore (the very competitive nature of Singaporeans which leads to a very high stress level, mostly) I'd gladly accept for better security and political stability, something that I definitely cannot get in my home country.
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<p>Prosperity is highly correlated with liberty ... </p>
<p>Singapore finds the most convenient ways to hide its poor. I'm not sure if it's there now, but go walk behind the Ministry of Education building and locate a rail track. Walk along it in the directions of Queenstown, and in a few kilometres you will notice entire squatter camps, neatly hidden from public view. Some settlements are conveniently located in the blind spot of HDB estates' external walls, such that the residents never notice them.</p>
<p>PAP eradicated all the squatter settlements? Oh please.</p>
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Singapore finds the most convenient ways to hide its poor. I'm not sure if it's there now, but go walk behind the Ministry of Education building and locate a rail track. Walk along it in the directions of Queenstown, and in a few kilometres you will notice entire squatter camps, neatly hidden from public view. Some settlements are conveniently located in the blind spot of HDB estates' external walls, such that the residents never notice them.
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<p>IIRC they were featured on tv before and it's not a squatter camp. and they're not there because they're too poor - they actually wanna live there. have you actually gone there and talked to the "squatters" or did you just judge them by the way they look from hundreds of metres away? or did you merely believe what you wanted to believe?</p>
<p>either that, or they're Malaysian KTM railroad workers' houses. please, there's a pretty dilapidated one situated at the railroad crossing right outside MINDEF.</p>
<p>and seriously, what makes you think that the government "hid" "squatters"?</p>
<p>Breaking up opposition HDB estates? Gerrymandering is one thing, but what are you talking about? </p>
<p>Galoisien, I think you have a lot of deep-seated feelings about these issues, especially regarding economic issues, and that concern is good. But what premises substantiate your stand? Do students who wish to go overseas really feel that way? And do other countries really institute full financial aid with no obligations for their citizens to study abroad? </p>
<p>I would like to hear your responses about these.</p>
<p>P.S. I'm back, if anyone noticed my absence. :) Heehee.</p>
<p>galoisien, while i emphatise with you having gone thru many of your experiences personally, i tink u shudnt allow your experiences to get the better of you</p>
<p>lets face it, singapore has the 6th highest GDP per capita in the world, combined with a low gini coefficient (ranking 78 out of 127 countries), singaporeans across the spectrum generally have one of the highest living standards in the world</p>
<p>the fact that ppl like you and I from humble backgrounds even have the chance to attend elite middle/high schools speaks volumes of the meritocracy in sg that many are cynical of (try getting into Eton or some elite prep school in the states)....while i agree that the numerous scholarships the govt and stat boards offer may not particularly attractive to everybody, it does open up a world of opportunities for students who've nvr even dreamt of studying in universities, not to mention overseas ones (trust me, i've seen it first-hand)....do other countries even have scholarships on such a scale, not to mention bond-free ones?</p>
<p>last thing about breaking up opposition HDB estates, whether its done with the intention to disadvantage opposition parties or simply for better urban planning is arguable, but at least they provide you with the option of acquiring a similarly priced flat elsewhere, unlike in other countries where corrupt officials and businessmen collaborate to evict tenants and leave them sleeping on the streets or sth</p>
<p>^Bond-free scholarships??</p>
<p>What hundreds of metres away? I was like 5 feet away from their open fire cooking pots. Featured on TV before? Really? Show title, channel and date please. (So I can look up on Youtube one.) </p>
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seriously, what makes you think that the government "hid" "squatters"?
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<p>It does a pretty good job at making sure that the poor have no public outlet.</p>
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Breaking up opposition HDB estates? Gerrymandering is one thing, but what are you talking about?
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<p>Several cases -- cannot recall off the top of my head, must research, but aiyah also talk to some taxi drivers (and you a Singaporean have the most immediate access to one) and they sure to know...</p>
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But what premises substantiate your stand? Do students who wish to go overseas really feel that way? And do other countries really institute full financial aid with no obligations for their citizens to study abroad?
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</p>
<p>The fact that Singapore is ranked 147 out of 167 for press freedom? </p>
<p>Outdated ideas on race, held by both LKY's faction and the old Chinese gerontocracy? (The Chinese elderly are the worst racists.)</p>
<p>Deeply entrenched vicious cycles within the streaming system?</p>
<p>And if students are thinking ahead -- do they want to raise a family here? </p>
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Do students who wish to go overseas really feel that way?
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<p>There are many students who would be capable of going overseas if the question of privilege (including the privilege that correlates with the students in the "top" colleges in the first place) wasn't an issue.</p>
<p>Though I'm not really the general type of international student, since I applied to US colleges as a domestic student, the question of Singaporeans who find academic success overseas and have a choice of staying must be common. </p>
<p>And of course ask what your parents would do lah. Ask people who emigrate. Last time, I wondered why people would be so disloyal. After all, if all the people who recognise the problem leave, how can there be any hope of reform? </p>
<p>Now I understand...</p>
<p>bridgehead, feel free to bring up more points in support of the "stay in Singapore" side, because I need CC to play devil's advocate for me, and maybe others facing the same question. </p>
<p>But I hope that people understand that there is much in favour of the "do not stay in Singapore" side. I love my country tearingly, and you must realise that for a person to consider forever leaving the country of his birth there must be something significantly motivating the uneasiness. (NS is the 'last straw' -- my main hesitation is serving a country that may never reform itself.) </p>
<p>Anyway, there should be more general need-based financial aid for students. Mind you, the government really only accounts for a tiny fraction of student financial aid in the US; my accessUVA grants probably ultimately came from private alumni, my remaining merit and need-based local scholarships came from the estates of the graduates of the high school of the small city in Maine I live in.</p>
<p>What I hope to see built is some sort of private network of scholarship funds Singaporeans will build for other Singaporeans just like it is commonly done in the US.</p>
<p>Well, you must concede that your point on breaking up HDB estates isn't well-substantiated and hence not very believable then.</p>
<p>Galoisien, what I asked for is proof that students who want to go overseas feel bitter, not possible causes of why they'd feel that way. If you can't furnish solid evidence, then don't jump to conclusions.</p>
<p>And btw Galoisien, the streaming system has been changed quite a bit since our time. For example, subjects are independent of each other so you could be doing Foundation level in English but normal level in everything else.</p>
<p>I am bitter because the Singapore education system doesn't aim for "Education", but is constructed to churn out nice little cogs for the economy. I am bitter because in Singapore, I have no right to criticize my government openly, the ambiguity of free speech laws make it so that I can get sued anytime. I am bitter because in Singapore, I am forced to serve 2 years, as all my foreign friends progress in their lives (Yeah, it may be "necessary", but it still sucks). I am bitter because in Singapore, I'm just a number, in a country where the economy matters more than its people (Arguably, the economy is FOR the people, but as policies, such as discouraging non-graduate mothers from having children, show, the PAP aren't reaaally that people oriented). I am bitter because in Singapore, the government directs the media. I am bitter because in Singapore, the opposition gets happily stomped on. I am bitter because, well, Singapore is just not a very happy place to live in.</p>