Site is kind of dead with no ED?-Agree?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
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<p>This is not an experiment and Harvard/Princeton didn't come up with this idea. Admission officers around the country have talked about the merits and drawbacks of getting rid of early admission for years. The talk of this move at UVa became more common when AccessUVa debuted.</p>

<p>From</a> Inside Higher Ed:
[QUOTE]
Blackburn, a member of the College Board’s task force that deals with access for low-income students, said that the idea of dropping the early decision program had been discussed at UVa, and that Harvard’s announcement “changed the conversation and said to us, this is possible.”</p>

<p>Much of the speculation since the Harvard announcement has focused on whether more private colleges would follow suit. Many admissions experts have said that few private institutions would be willing to give up the control that early admissions gives them over their class composition, and that only the Harvards and Princetons could afford to do so — confident that a critical mass of admitted applicants would still enroll.</p>

<p>Virginia’s announcement reflects another reality: Some top public universities are so popular within their states that they don’t need early decision to be assured of a good class.

[/QUOTE]
By the way, Delaware was the first school to end early admission. University</a> of Florida followed suit a few months after Harvard, Princeton, and UVa made their announcements.</p>

<p>The time line:
June 2006 - Delaware
September 2006 - Harvard, Princeton, UVa
April 2007 - Florida</p>

<p>Schools are cautious. There may be others considering the change that want to see how we do this year before they make their final decisions.</p>

22

<p>Thanks, Dean J, for reporting the context surrounding UVa's decision to have a single-deadline admission system. </p>

<p>On the issue of having out-of-state students at a state university, isn't the usual reasoning that a more diverse group of students makes for better education for all the students attending? At my state university alma mater, in-state students HEAVILY predominated, but I learned a lot from out of state and international classmates just by talking to them about their different life experiences.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
Schools are cautious. There may be others considering the change that want to see how we do this year before they make their final decisions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why couldn't UVa wait Dean J? Any particular rush other than Dean Blackburn wanted to be ahead of the (predicted) curve?</p>

24

<p>
[QUOTE]
On the issue of having out-of-state students at a state university, isn't the usual reasoning that a more diverse group of students makes for better education for all the students attending?

[/QUOTE]
Yes.<br>
This is a separate point, but without OOS tuition dollars, I imagine UVa would have even more serious budget issues (we just had a surprise budget cut) or tuition would rise dramatically.
[QUOTE]
Why couldn't UVa wait Dean J?

[/QUOTE]
I think because it was the right thing to do in light of the goals of the University and the state of Virginia. We're a state school that's supposed to be serving the public, but the ED process was, in a way, setting aside seats for wealthy students who didn't have to worry about their financial aid package. Last year, of all the ED applicants, ONE was from a low income family. A handful actually wound up applying for aid in the spring. </p>

<p>BTW, this was not just Dean Blackburn's move. All of the senior administrations were involved in the decision making process. Since the decision was made, the feedback has been mostly positive.</p>

25

<p>dean j,</p>

<p>the problem I have with this is that if we had switched to SCEA, it would have been fine. SCEA shouldn't give anyone an advantage or anyone a disadvantage unless you, the adcoms, gave them it.</p>

<p>If UVa REALLY wanted to do the "right" thing, and since it loves to talk up its Access UVa program, why not say "we'll match any financial aid package from other schools for students who apply SCEA to UVa and get in." This way, instead of penalizing a group of kids, you give an advantage to everyone who applies SCEA.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
I think because it was the right thing to do in light of the goals of the University and the state of Virginia. We're a state school that's supposed to be serving the public, but the ED process was, in a way, setting aside seats for wealthy students who didn't have to worry about their financial aid package.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>With all due respect the goals of the state of Virginia should be to educate its future taxpayers, not worry about folks out of state, out of state alumni and everyone with a sad story to tell. The fact of the matter is that instate kids apply to UVa because it is their best chance to get a world class education at an affordable price. The University should be focusing on fellow Virginians and not worrying about the problems of other states students to the detriment of our own(we have plenty of poverty here) while simultaneously decrying unexpected budget cuts. </p>

<p>Frankly with the baby boomlet facing universities this year UVa would do well to protect Virginians. They should have a "goal" of making sure VA students have affordable education and not have to settle for less so some oos kid can have their spot in the name of geographic diversity. In addition, the University would do well to reconsider it's policy of giving in state benefits to people who work in Virginia but live and file tax returns elsewhere. That money would serve many an impoverished Virginia kid. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of another state university that provides as many loopholes for instate tuition as UVa does. </p>

<p>There is an old saying: Charity begins at home.</p>

27

<p>vistany,</p>

<p>the reason UVa doesn't just say "100% instate kids" is because that would be the detriment of the university. UVa is a world class institution, and if they only allowed poor kids from virginia to attend, it wouldn't be anymore. why would any world class professors want to teach at a school that seeks to close itself off to the best the country has to offer. Virginia has plenty of state universities, not just UVa. UVa is the flagship and should have the best of the best, as opposed to being relegated to 2nd tier status.</p>

<p>you also seem to forget that the 1/3 OOS bring account for over 50% of the tuition revenue. instead of bashing on the kids who, for the most part, are more qualified that the kids from virginia, you should consider the benefits they instill upon the school--like the JPJ arena, which was funded by a OOS graduate...</p>

28

<p>No Jags you are missing my point. Why does someone who works in Virginia, but lives and pays taxes elsewhere get instate rate at UVA? You said yourself they need the 1/3 oos for tuition revenue, then why dilute it. I understand money is needed to run the University, but I don't understand giving instate rates to students who don't live in Virginia. If they don't provide reciprocal instate rates for VA students attending their public universities then I say forget it.</p>

<p>The cost of instate tuition is subsidized by VA tax dollars. So why should a Maryland kid come and pay instate rate without contributing to that subsidy. Their parents pay Maryland taxes not VA taxes so they are simply a burden on taxpayers here.</p>

<p>I get tired of schools crying poor and then raising rates while not finding ways to increase its revenue stream. It's just bad business plain and simple.</p>

<p>When you couple that with qualified Virginia students being left on the outside looking in then yeah I have a problem with it. Chapel Hill and UC schools seem plenty diverse and they take great care of the their own.</p>

29

<p>
[QUOTE]
Why does someone who works in Virginia, but lives and pays taxes elsewhere get instate rate at UVA? </p>

<p>So why should a Maryland kid come and pay instate rate without contributing to that subsidy. Their parents pay Maryland taxes not VA taxes so they are simply a burden on taxpayers here.

[/QUOTE]
I don't know of any scenario where an OOS student would be able to pay in state tuition rates. [The</a> legal definition of "domicile" is specific in Virginia<a href="and%20in%20NC,%20for%20that%20matter">/url</a>. </p>

<p>Maybe you're confusing the fact that the legacy admit rate is about the same as the in state admit rate? It's a common mistake. The Office of Admission might read those groups in a similar way, but the Virginia Status and Financial Services folks don't. To them, only people who meet the state government's legal definition of residency are treated as in state students.</p>

<p>By the way, if you're interested in really digging around, check out [url=<a href="http://www.virginia.edu/budget%5Dthe"&gt;www.virginia.edu/budget]the&lt;/a> annual budget](<a href="http://www.schev.edu/Students/VAdomicileguidelines.asp%5DThe"&gt;http://www.schev.edu/Students/VAdomicileguidelines.asp). It's pretty interesting (esp. the chart on page 14 for those who want to compare UVa to UNC or the UC system. You might also look into that state budget cuts that are currently affecting UVa, W&M, and Tech.</p>

30

<p>vistany,</p>

<p>what OOS kids are here paying instate tuition? unless you are talking about access UVa which limits the loans you take out to some proportion of the instate tuition (i don't know exactly what the number is), but thats an extremely small proportion of the student body, anyway.</p>

31

<p>The loan part of AccessUVa aims to cap a student's loans at 25% of their total cost of attendance over four years. The low income initiative gives a full ride to students who come from low income families (there's a chart that shows what income for what sized family qualifies).</p>

<p>I think Vistany is just misinterpreting the similarity in admit rate between legacies and in state students as meaning legacies are considered in state by the entire University.</p>

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<p>nevermind this post</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
Maybe you're confusing the fact that the legacy admit rate is about the same as the in state admit rate? It's a common mistake. The Office of Admission might read those groups in a similar way, but the Virginia Status and Financial Services folks don't.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am not confusing this issue. Dean J. Please do your best to read my thoughts through the lens of someone who is not in college admissions. I believe this will help you understand where I am coming from.</p>

<p>Legacy students who have never stepped one foot in Virginia are reviewed by the same standards as in state students for the purposes of admissions. Why? I didn’t mention financial aid. I will address that bone of contention later in this post. There are a limited number of seats available at UVa with a generous one third being oos. The decision to treat legacy students the same as instate students for the purposes of admission is another hurdle for instate students to overcome in order to "gain access" to the flagship STATE university. </p>

<p>Where I would appreciate clarification is whether legacy applicants are part of the 68% instate admissions pool or are they part of the 32-33% oos cap that should be in place.</p>

<p>Further, it troubles me that you mention budget cuts to Virginia’s universities which in turn require 5 years of tuition hikes, while defending the decision to use University funds to travel oos to recruit oos students in what appears to be a conga line with Princeton and Harvard. Here is another quote from your post:
[quote]
Many admissions experts have said that few private institutions would be willing to give up the control that early admissions gives them over their class composition, and that only the Harvards and Princetons could afford to do so

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why is UVa able to afford what “Many admission experts say…that only the Harvards and Princetons could afford?” In the face of budget cuts and tuition hikes is this an appropriate mission? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Virginia’s announcement reflects another reality: Some top public universities are so popular within their states that they don’t need early decision to be assured of a good class

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are lots of needy Virginia students Dean J. There are lots of worthy Virginia students who have worked hard to prove UVa worthy but are not admitted. But of course you know that. Blackburn is “assured of a good class” because students who are worthy of admissions at fabulous schools of equal selectivity can’t afford to pay the tuition. That is the major reason UVa is “so popular within their state”. I know lots of kids who would prefer (and are qualified) to attend places like Duke, and Cornell. They can’t afford it. Right now they are applying to Yale and other ivies just to see if they make the grade. They know they can’t go even if they got in. They have to stay instate (home) in order to go to college and not incur crippling debt. </p>

<p>Right now there is a baby boomlet the class of 08 is the peak. IMHO the state Universities should temporarily change the oos rate to accommodate its own. I’m not saying no oos state kids. I am saying increase the number of people you admit overall and lower even a little the oos state rate until the boomlet passes in a few years. This would help the middle class and poor go to state schools. It is the middle class and poor who are counting on the state for it’s chance to attend college. UVA and other state schools should respond by making sure those very people – Virginians – get the education they need to succeed in a global marketplace.</p>

<p>I couldn’t find the chart for AccessUVA income but I will share this with you. I know a family who lives on Social Security (Dad died when they were young) who make drapes in the basement to carry on their frugal life. Working poor no doubt about it. D1 got 4k from Madison last year. But when the mom cashed in a small stock holding she inherited to pay her share of the bill this year the 4k grant was reduced to 2k. D2 would like to go to college, (class of 08) and instate is her only chance. The income numbers used to determine aide eligibility are not reasonable. There is no way the average person can pay the contribution on the FASFA form without loans and second mortgages. This is life altering stuff. I have heard it said “you need to be living in your car to get financial aide” Aide programs are charming but they serve the nearly destitute, not the working poor or middle income folks. State Universities should focus on helping instate kids.</p>

<p>It seems to me (a simple outsider) that Virginia is more concerned with geographic diversity, far a field poverty and being branded an Ivy than with the education of its average fellow (middle and lower middle class) citizens who meet the criteria for admission to UVa. Please remember they are counting on you to get a world class education at an affordable price.</p>

<p>Just my 2 cents. Sorry for the long post. This has been on my mind for a while.</p>

<hr>

34

<p>Hi, vistany, what do you think about the other state-supported universities in Virginia?</p>

35

<p>Vistany, you said
[QUOTE]
So why should a Maryland kid come and pay instate rate without contributing to that subsidy.

[/QUOTE]
This is the comment to which Jags and I were replying.</p>

<p>Are you ready for UVa to look more like a massive, state U when it comes to class size, faculty, facilities, etc? I think the changes you seem to be promoting could potentially make UVa look and feel like a very different place. </p>

<p>I don't expect students to completely understand enrollment management, but before you propose changes to how the University works, you should read the budget. I don't purport to be an expert on the budget, but looking over it has helped me understand some of the policy that governs our office.</p>

<p>By the way, I never wrote that legacies are "the same" as in state students. I have said that their admit rate is similar. </p>

<p>I also think you read that Inside Higher Ed article literally. The word "afford" was not about money. It was about admission and applications.</p>

36

<p>vistany,</p>

<p>first off, if a legacy student is an OOS student, of course he counts as an OOS admit. He just gets treated, roughly, as an instate student in terms of the quality of applicant he is. If a legacy student is from virginia, then he is counted as an instate student. that doesn't change the fact that most legacy students are qualified just as much as non-legacy students--in fact you should conclude that they are better qualified overall. consider that they are children of parents who were successful, and probably had the advantages in life of going to good schools and taking SAT classes and such...</p>

<p>regardless, UVa isn't a charity house. a college education isn't a right, it's a privilege, and there is no reason to come to the conclusion that UVa (or the 20 other public universities in virginia, and countless community colleges--which everyone forgets about when they start talking about this type of stuff) should cater to only poor kids from virginia.</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
regardless, UVa isn't a charity house. a college education isn't a right, it's a privilege, and there is no reason to come to the conclusion that UVa (or the 20 other public universities in Virginia, and countless community colleges--which everyone forgets about when they start talking about this type of stuff) should cater to only poor kids from Virginia.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Jags, you are preaching to the choir. That is my point. UVa should not cater to only poor kids which is one reason why I object to the whole lets lose ED and travel the country to entice poor kids from other states to apply to our University mission. As you can tell, it bothers me. We have plenty of our own poor kids! State schools should focus on the kids from that state, making a great education affordable and accessible to its citizens. oos kids have to compete for spots like we have to compete for spots at their state schools. </p>

<p>I consider its disingenuous to welcome me to review the budget when the money exists to fund out of state excursions with Ivy league schools. </p>

<p>I was not suggesting huge changes at UVa. I suggested changing the instate/oos formula until the boomlet passes and increasing the number of students overall similar to what Princeton is doing to enable more students to attend. Morphing into Tech or Penn State was never mentioned.</p>

<p>To answer your question, I consider Virginians really lucky to have so many solid state schools. But that doesn't mean I agree with decisions that I believe are detrimental to the average student attempting to gain admissions to those schools. "enrollment management" is such a nebulous term that ends up never being defined. If admissions were based purely on student merit there would be very little to manage. Unfortunately there seem to be so many second agendas, admissions and enrollment management are businesses onto themselves.</p>

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<p>vistany,</p>

<p>your argument is nebulous at best...</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
your argument is nebulous at best...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really jags? Try telling that to the extremely qualified kids come here to wring there hands in chances threads while the admissions folks woo kids in Oklahoma.</p>

40

<p>I'm sure dean j can clarify on numbers, but I'm sure all 20 or so applications UVa gets from Oklahoma every year and all 3 or 4 kids from Oklahoma who actually come to UVa every year aren't ruining anyones chances, vistany.</p>