<p>Bet you a donut 3 or 4 kids on the waitlist at UVa would disagree.</p>
<p>an instate kid isn't being replaced by an OOS kid. UVa is state mandated to have 67% instate students--and usually teeter tots around 70%, therefore admitting more than it has to. Sorry, an instater who gets waitlisted wasn't qualified, while an average OOS admit is generally more qualified than his average instate counterparts.</p>
<p>Maybe some of those waitlisted kids can go to the 19 other public universites in Virginia. It's not UVa's job to have open admissions.</p>
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Sorry, an instater who gets waitlisted wasn't qualified, while an average OOS admit is generally more qualified than his average instate counterparts.
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<p>Jags, either you are not from NoVa, have never seen the scattergrams, or both. Blackburn himself has said he could fill a class with qualified NoVa kids but he can't do that in fairness to students in the rest of the state.</p>
<p>We agree that it's not UVa's job to have open admissions. Its not OMO their job to search the country (with Harvard and Princeton) looking for poor kids while ignoring the ones in their own backyard.</p>
<p>This has gotten old, and the bickering really isn't very friendly, nor helpful, IMO. Thanks as always Dean J for being here, if I don't speak with you before then, have a Merry Christmas! Looking forward to the Lighting of the Lawn!</p>
<p>Sorry Jimmy, you just made an innocent observation. But no worries this is not unfriendly, just a heartfelt debate at least for me.</p>
<p>An OOS student is more qualified than most northern Virginia students. They are definitely more qualified than one that was waitlisted.</p>
<p>I wouldn't say waitlisted NoVa kids are necessarily more qualified or being shafted. First of all, their acceptances appear lower because northern Virginia only has about half as many African Americans as the state average (most of the URM benefits come from instate from what I remember). Without all those high admit rates it's going to depress their acceptance rate compared to the overall state admittance rate. NoVa's average SAT is higher than the rest of the state as well, but for the same reason as stated earlier, this is slightly inflated since it doesn't have a massive amount of 1000 SATs bringing it down. Plus, UVa only looks at SAT as a secondary factor, so all those SAT classes and privileged upbringings that many of the richer, whiter (and more Asian) students have only helps them slightly. They still have to do better than their peers to be considered to be qualified in that sort of environment.</p>
<p>Also, it's totally fine for them to look around the country, as long as it doesn't dip into the current rules of 67%-33%. I would be totally against raising the instate admittance percentage. Even changing it a little bit would obviously lower the overall amount of money we get from tuition. One nice thing about UVa is our cost. If we're talking about affordability for instate students, we have to remember that many other similarly prestigious public schools (like Michigan) are ridiculously expensive compared to UVa instate. Also, those poor OOS kids, being OOS, are still way more qualified than most random NoVa kids, unless there are some special rules being applied to them that I haven't heard about. I'd always take one of them over a less qualified instate student, as long as it is within the 33% amount that they can take. There's no reason we need to lower the quality of UVa- it serves its state well enough by being a top institution while simultaneously catering to its residents very well.</p>
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First of all, their acceptances appear lower because northern Virginia only has about half as many African Americans as the state average (most of the URM benefits come from instate from what I remember). Without all those high admit rates it's going to depress their acceptance rate compared to the overall state admittance rate. NoVa's average SAT is higher than the rest of the state as well, but for the same reason as stated earlier, this is slightly inflated since it doesn't have a massive amount of 1000 SATs bringing it down.
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<p>Appear lower? Do you have any evidence that the URM rate is lower in Nova? I think you are mistaken. BTW scattergrams speak to individual accomplishments. "massive amounts of 1000 SAT's" play no part in a holistic admissions process. FWIW UVa prides itself on reviewing everyone twice. Average scores have nothing to do with who is admitted. Feel free to correct me with evidence.</p>
<p>Nova has only about half the percentage population of African Americans as the rest of the state. I'd say that the number of African Americans applying/admitted, relative to the size of the area's population, is smaller in Nova, with its approximately 10% AA population, than in the rest of the state which is around 20%. Of course, that 20% is for the entire state, including Northern Virginia's population, so it's probable that the rest of the state consists of some percentage higher than 20%. Also, I thought I remembered reading someone mentioning how Northern Virginia's admit rates are lower than the rest of the state, but I can't find that now so I might have just read it in one of the articles.</p>
<p>I don't think I've seen UVa publish a scattergram for admissions data. There have been articles and complaints from people that point to data showing that NoVa has more 'qualified' students thanks to their higher than average test scores. The data is definitely there, though I haven't seen it again in a year. It shows something like Nova having a 1300-1310 average SAT, while various other areas in Virginia have sub-1300 SAT scores. This was when UVA's average IS SAT score was about 1290 in the past.</p>
<p>Nova has lots of URM's African American is not the only class.</p>
<p>UVA doesn't publish scattergrams on acceptance Naviance does. Kids from Nova must have similar stats to oos kids in order to be admitted to UVA. It is a more stringent standard than the rest of the state. </p>
<p>SAT averages don't matter, individual SAT's do. An SAT score from Nova in the 1300 range is not going to impress adcoms. 1400-1500 is where you would need to be to remain competitive.</p>
<p>My daughter had a 1430 SAT, 9 APs, AP scholar with distinction, almost fluent in French, years of piano, ballet, etc... The thing is with a 3.9 GPA, she was only in the top 20% of her class at a competitive Arlington school. She was waitlisted.</p>
<p>Happens all the time in Northern Virginia guillaume as you know only too well. </p>
<p>It is for this reason that I disagree with UVa's coalition with Harvard and Princeton to seek out economically disadvantaged youth from other states when you and I know that money could serve an economically disadvantaged Virginia student.</p>
<p>Vistany, if 1400-1500 SATs were necessary to impress the admissions officers enough for a Northern Virginia student to get in, then the average SAT would be 1400-1500. It is not- it was about 1310 a couple years ago (hard to tell now given the new SAT and faulty SAT reporting by UVa).</p>
<p>Also, African American is the only minority group that gains significant advantages in the admissions process. Hispanics also have an advantage, but that difference is fairly small (that contributes to our small, 2-3% hispanic population at UVa). At UVa, any discussion talking about how minorities get an admissions advantage due to the university's wish for diversity is virtually exclusively referring to African Americans and blacks in general. The number of Native Americans applying at any school is so small it's not worth including in the overall trends. Those are pretty much the three main URM groups.</p>
<p>To say that kids have to have similar stats to OOS I think is a pretty bold statement. That's totally not even true, and I'm not sure where you are getting that. In fact, it's pretty ridiculous to state that. An OOS student is in the top 5% of her class with a mid 1400s SAT. A Northern Virginia student is top 10% with a lower to mid 1300s SAT. You're massively overrating how hard it is to get into from Northern Virginia. </p>
<p>A top 20% ranking is pretty weak, guillame. And simply saying that a school is 'competitive' doesn't mean anything. Everyone claims their school is competitive, but in reality if you don't go to TJ or NA your school probably isn't competitive like you think it is. You'd at least need some stats to back it up (for example, my high school had the second highest SAT average in the state for a public school, behind Thomas Jefferson). Of course, if that 3.9 is UW, then I would say there's something wrong with the grading at her school (unless her school had a weighting system and none of her classes were difficult enough to be weighted). If it's weighted (it seems so), then that number means nothing.</p>
<p>Oh, and I just looked at the Naviance stuff, and it pretty much looked like a joke. It's exactly the same kind of stuff that people would use if they bought into all of CC's products... one of the many ripoffs that parents and schools obsessed with college admissions would be gullible enough to buy into. Is there any real data out of that website or is it mostly just self-reporting BS (obviously a real accurate measure for determining the competitiveness out of Northern Virginia /sarcasm)? Don't trust anything unless it's UVa-reported, especially if it tells you that NoVa is almost as competitive as OOS (LOL)</p>
<p>None of the Naviance information is self reported. It (GPA/SAT) is input by the school system not the student. To assure valid reporting, the school verifies student report attendance to confirm that the student did enroll in the stated college. For example if a student reported that they were going to attend UPenn, that information would be verified with UPenn. The sat scores come directly from college board into Naviance, and the gpa is integrated into the data base directly from school records. Parents don't purchase Naviance and neither nor their students populate the data. The school system buys it because it serves many purposes. Scattergrams are just one of them. It is used for records management like sending transcripts, reporting college visits, providing historical data on the subject schools admission rates to other colleges.</p>
<p>FYI this system has a technology team that works on the inputs and works with the provider to assure new functionality is addressed. I find it interesting that you are dissing a system used broadly by educational professionals when you obviously know very little about how the data is populated and the other functions of the system. Can you think of a reason a public school system would buy a software program and train its staff in order to perpetrate a "self reporting BS" database?</p>
<p>You may be interested to know that one of the reasons the scattergrams are used is to dissuade unqualified students from applying. In the case of NoVa students interested in UVa, that would mean anyone with less than a 3.8 and a 1350 would be a long shot unless other issues like URM and special talent are taken into account. BTW, in Nova, Hispanics are more and 3% of the population and student services directors report that it is given weight in admissions.</p>
<p>As far as not trusting anything that is not UVa reported, does the fact that Blackburn stated that the reason UVa stats are so high is due to NoVa students help you see the light?</p>
<p>sv3, when one is only in the top 20% with a 3.9 GPA, yes, the school is competitive. Here is a list of where students were accepted:</p>
<p>Dartmouth College, Brown University, University of Virginia, College of William and Mary, Mary Washington University,Georgetown University, Clemson University, University of Texas at Austin, UNC-Chapel Hill, University of South Carolina, University of Vermont, Trinity College, Vassar College, Wesleyan University, Colby College, Skidmore College, University of British Columbia, University of Colorado at Boulder, University of Southern California, James Madison University, Emerson College, University of Miami, University of Richmond, Macalester College,Barnard College, Smith College, American University, George Mason University,Mount Holyoke College, Virginia Tech, Whitman College, Lewis and Clark University, Virginia Commonwealth University, St. John's University,Northwestern University, University of Chicago, Princeton University, Duke University, George Washington University, Williams College, Tulane University, University of Wisconsin, University of Bristol UK, University of Edinburgh-Scotland, Manchester University UK, University of York UK, University of Nottingham UK, University of Washington, Washington University at St. Louis, University of Rochester, Tufts University, Carnegie Mellon University, Case Western Reserve University,Middlebury College, Syracuse University, University of Michigan, University of Georgia, New York University, Old Dominion University, Clark University, Boston University, Michigan State University, Penn State University, Western Kentucky University, Lynchburg College, Drexel University, Christopher Newport University, Cornell University, Georgia Tech, Amherst College, University of California-Santa Cruz, University of California-Santa Barbara, University of California-San Diego, University of California-Riverside, Colgate University,</p>
<p>The bottom line is that if you are from NOVA (unless you go to TJ), anything less than 4.0 and top 10%, you can forget about UVA. SAT numbers don't count as much but they do some. Our neighbor had a 4.2, 1230 SAT (she only took it once) was waitlisted.</p>
<p>i dont understand what you're arguing about guillame. everyone knows UVa is hard to get into. 90% of the incoming class was in the top 10% of their class. if you conclude that most of the 10% that wasn't includes athletes and URMs then the average non-urm, non-athlete has to be in the top 10% of his class--thats not just for northern virginia, thats for everywhere. stop complaining.</p>
<p>as said before, GPA doesn't mean anything by itself. 3.9, 4.2, 7.8, 12.4--all the numbers are meaningless unless they are in context. if 20% of the class or more has a 3.9+, that means its not very hard to have a 3.9--I.E. its not competitive. i hate to say this, but I'm sick of hearing about how special northern virginia is. I went to a really good private high school and I graduated in the top 10% of my class. I wouldn't call it "competitive" because it wasn't cutthroat. But I can tell you our list of schools people got into was easily just as good as the one listed--and it wasn't just the top 10 or 15 kids in the class who made up that list.</p>
<p>Jags, we are not saying that Northern Virginia is special, we are saying that you have to have much higher stats to get in than is necessary in most parts of the state. As I said, UVa admits that it is true of Nova kids.</p>
<p>When you meet UVa kids that say I got in with a 3.4 and you had a 3.95 and better SAT's (lets say equal EC's) it hurts to be left on the outside looking in. You hear enough of this stuff and it could make a person a little bitter.</p>
<p>I agree GPS is difficult to compare. Fairfax kids need a 94 to get an A, no weight on honors. Loudon County OTOH weighs honors and a 90 is an A for a 4.0 and a 98 is a 4.5. Make it an AP course and that 98 becomes a 5.0. It gets tough to quantify.</p>
<p>BTW it's not just UVa. I know a kid from our school who was arrested 4 times but got into Cornell. His stats were crap, but his Dad is a MAJOR player with Marriott that is closely associated with Cornell's hotel mgt program. If it were you or me we'd be sitting Loser U, but this kid got some worthy kids spot. Life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean you have to like it.</p>
<p>The GPA discussion here is laughable. Some of you seem to have trouble grasping the fact that the raw and scaled components of GPA are relative measures that are different for every class, every school and every area. This is why class rank is important. A school system that gives A's for 90-100 is not easier than one that gives A's for 94-100. It is simply different. And a school system where a 3.9 puts someone merely in the top 20% of his/her class is not necessarily more competitive; in fact, it's more likely that it's more grade-inflated. </p>
<p>Like GPA, test scores are also arbitrary numbers that are valuable because we know how they compare in the overall distribution of scores. Consider the SAT: out of a certain number of correctly and incorrectly answered questions, you are given a raw score. From that raw score, you are assigned a scaled score which matches to a general score distribution (which approximates a normal distribution). A 1400 is a good M+V score because it's top 3% or so. A 1500 is even better because it's top 1%. The SAT is a valuable tool for admissions officer because there is no variation nationally or internationally in how the test is given or graded. GPA cannot be compared in the same way.</p>
<p>Cav, you are wrong about that IMO for two reasons. First adcoms make it their business to understand school grading scales in their area. Second, this is necessary because some of the most competitive high schools in the country refuse to rank. Fairfax being amongst them.</p>
<p>While the SAT is arguably a valuable tool for an admissions officer, those same admissions professionals understand the economic diversity of each school. They know which schools can afford SAT prep and which cannot. If you studied the Naviance scattergrams (using UVa as a target school) you would see that a rich but difficult school might get away with an average GPA of 3.91 but an average SAT of 2088. A more economically diverse but slightly less rigorous high school in the same county the average gpa is 3.97 with and average SAT of 2010. They balance the playing field using valid data available to them. In both cases class rank is not reported. In fact high schools that refuse to report a student’s rank is actually common. So in truth UVa is making admissions decisions in the absence of this data. Therefore you are incorrect in your assumptions. Reported rank is not a factor in and of itself, because it is often absent from the counselor report.</p>
<p>The argument you seem to be missing, and the point we are trying to make, is there is geographic disparity in admissions requirements and it is frustrating/disappointing to those who fall victim to it.</p>