Small town, middle America

Parents Forum
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<p>Your S should take the SAT subject tests after studying for them. Since your S does not come from as strong a school as many students do who are applying to top colleges, the colleges will take that into account when they review his scores. They would not expect as much from him as they would from a student who attends a top public or private h.s. </p>

<p>I think, however, the fact that his scores already are very high indicates that with study, your son probably can do extremely well on the SAT IIs, also. Regardless of what he makes, however, he still should apply to places like Ivies if he's interested in those. His chances are stronger than are most because the Ivies and other top colleges outside of his region have a very hard time attracting students from places like Iowa. Clearly, his scores and grades indicate that he can handle the work at a top college. The colleges want geographic diversity, and he could add to that at any Ivy or similar place.</p>

<p>I don't normally make any kind of chances estimates for places like Ivies because there are so many variables, but your S's scores, ECs (in the context of where he lives) and being in Iowa mean that his chances for top colleges are far better than are most students, even students who may seem to you to be stronger candidates.</p>

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<p>I think your son has a shot at any school to which he chooses to apply. He should focus on finding schools where he would like to attend and apply to those. Also, many schools are now accepting the ACT with Writing in place of SAT IIs. </p>

<p>As stated, the Ivys are a reach for everyone, but if he is really interested in attending he should apply. And don't let the stats of other kids intimidate you. It is quality vs. quantity. My son is also heavily involved in theater and had some excellent schools to choose from when all was said and done.</p>

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<p>Not to throw cold water on the OP, but keep in mind that a lot of small towns produce the "best grad in a generation" in whom everyone has great expectations - "If this kid doen't get into ___, no one will."</p>

<p>Guess what? Kid does not get in...Why? Kids with high grades and high test scores are a dime a dozen at top schools. They look for something more. The OP's challenge is to help the kid stand out from the numbers of other small town standouts that will be applying. Yea, there are a lot of small towns out there. I seriously doubt being from a small town, in and of itself, is much of an advantage.</p>

<p>Now, look at the brighter picture: Many folks believe the difference between the ultra elite schools and the mere elites is not all that great. And the further away you are from the northeast, the further you are from overachieving suburban communities (hyperbole deliberate, spare flames, please), the less it seems to matter.</p>

<p>The OP listed schools that have little in common. A bit of time figuring out what kind of school would work best might be more productive in the near term. </p>

<p>JMHO</p>

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<p>newmassdad:</p>

<p>That's why I called his small town and high school a tip factor instead of a hook. Tip factors just mean that, all things being equal, a small high school might just tip it his way. I'm not making this up. There are several books by former Ivy League admissions officers that are very specific about what consitutes a hook and what constitutes a tip. </p>

<p>I, in no way, am suggesting that being from a small town will get a kid in. Far from it. But having a tip working for you is not a bad thing ;-).</p>

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<p>Tarhunt,</p>

<p>The difference between a tip factor and a hook is why I chose the words I did. Small town is neither, at least at the top schools. Now, it is true that being in a small town may provide opportunities to do things or distinguish oneself in ways that become a tip or hook, but the observation is trivial because the same could be said for any environment.</p>

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<p>Tarhunt, could you specify on which "books by former Ivy League admissions officers" you are talking about? I've just read The Gatekeepers, and it was a fascinating read; I'd like to learn more. Thanks.</p>

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<p>OP - tell us a little more about his theater? That can be a fantastic EC. I confess I think the academic competition stuff might not be necessary if he is the type who can write a fantastic essay. But a lot might depend on the nature and scope of his theater activities and whether they are "showable" to the admissions committee.</p>

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<p>iaquilter,</p>

<p>I come from much the same background. I come from a village in rural Michigan of about 1,500 people. My high school offered only three AP courses: Biology, Chemistry, and English Literature. I just recently graduated from the University of Chicago with a BS in Mathematics. I'm the first student from my school to go there, ever. My graduating class was about 100 people, and only a few went out of state.</p>

<p>There are a few possibilities if your son wants to get more academic experience. One, he can try to do an independent study. Many teachers are open to the idea, especially if your son is as intelligent as he seems to be. If he's eager to learn, say, more advanced math, find a qualified teacher and ask about it. Finding the qualified teacher is the hard part.</p>

<p>Second, he can do like I did and try online courses. This option is not very good in my opinion because there's essentially no guidance. The school could very well see if at being "out of their hands" and it could be hit-or-miss with the online instructor. Of course, if you son is motivated for self-study, this might be a way to exploit it. I did mine through APEX Learning and it was awful, awful, awful.</p>

<p>Third, and I think this might be the best option, is to take equivalent courses at a nearby college or university. A friend of mine did just this for mathematics. Where I studied independently for the AP Calculus BC test and took it on my own time, my friend was taking the calculus sequence at the local community college. Although the credits might not transfer, he'll come out way ahead of where he'd be otherwise.</p>

<p>The question, of course, is what are you and he really aiming for? Does he want a better education? Or does he want better chances at getting admitted? He will not be penalized for not taking courses the school does not offer, although he might not get as good an education if he stays entirely within a school that doesn't understand his abilities and interests. Furthermore, going above and beyond the cirriculum offered at the school could very well be considered a plus on a transcript -- it shows a desire to learn. Speaking for Chicago, this is basically the single quality that will most likely get a student admitted if he has already demonstrated his academic abilities. Crescat scientia, vita excolatur, and all that.</p>

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<p>taking a course he is really interested in at your local community college would be a good idea. If he has an EC he is passionate about it is a must to highlight that fact in his applications.</p>

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<p>Thanks to all posters for the wonderful info. To address some specifics:</p>

<p>Cangel - "Another issue related to curriculum is degree of preparation related to peers once he gets to college (no matter which college he attends)."</p>

<p>I am concerned about this.</p>

<p>Tarhunt - "Talk to his English teacher(s) about being nominated for NCTE."</p>

<p>If I looked at the right thing online, I think he is too late for this. It said you had to be in your junior year.</p>

<p>newmssdad - "A bit of time figuring out what kind of school would work best might be more productive in the near term. "</p>

<p>I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't know exactly how to go about this. He doesn't seem to know what he wants to do. I asked him the other day to name three things he would like to do if there were no obstacles to doing them. His reply - win a Nobel prize (probably in science, he thought, although literature would be nice), go on a dinosaur dig, and be perform on Broadway. He has so many interests he doesn't seem to be able to focus on any in particular. He also doesn't seem to care about a particular college environment.</p>

<p>Alumother - "tell us a little more about his theater?" </p>

<p>He started acting at age 6 in communty theatre. He has also had some nice roles in a local non-equity theatre. He loves to sing and musical theatre is a passion. The drama at his hs is poor, but he participates anyway mostly to be with his friends. He has written one essay on his theatre experience, but to me it has no "life."</p>

<p>Diocletian - "This option is not very good in my opinion because there's essentially no guidance. "</p>

<p>Here is our experience - He took Spansh I as a freshman, but there was no room for II when a soph. Took beginning Spanish at a community college. This seemed to get us through Spanish II. No options other than online for III. He is down to the wire this summer to finish it. It was not what I expected. He will be able to take IV in the fall at hs. He is considering taking EMT course at the community college in the fall. Would this be considered a "college" equivalent course?</p>

<p>Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of other people around here to discuss some of these things with. The only outstanding student that has really done something went to the Naval Academy.</p>

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<p>I do not think that an EMT course would be considered a college appropriate course. Since he has access to the community college, he needs to take more advanced courses, such as courses that would be equivalent to AP courses in History, science or math. Colleges look specifically at core disciplines, which means English, math, social studies and sciences.</p>

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<p>Is he in general more a math kid or more a language kid? If language, then maybe there's a Shakespeare class at the local cc. Or does University of Indiana have an extension college like we have here in CA? If his essay doesn't spark, maybe he just needs to spend some time reading the Bard:). Or the New Yorker....</p>

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<p>marite, does he "need" to take these more advanced courses? I get that it would give him a more challenging curriculum than what was available at his hs. But I am not sure that he <em>needs</em> to make up for that. If he is so inclined, fine. But if he has the 4 English, 4 math, 4 social studies, 4 sciences that make up a solid academic core, does he "need" to have the AP/community college element?</p>

<p>I know that many kids here on cc have a lot of APs, many have done the online or college-level courses. But I don't know that this family should feel they need to re-make his senior year.</p>

<p>Isn't one option to focus on presenting him as he is? Our GC had a nice way of saying it - "Your application should show you as you are on your best day." I just don't want this family to panic that they have to "make up ground." I think this kid has plenty going for him as is.</p>

<p>I agree that EMT will not be seen as a college-level course. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't take it, if it is something he wants to do. </p>

<p>If he decides not to take AP equivalent courses by looking to the community college, I think he can still identify some reach schools where his "competition" will have a number of such courses. These schools might want him for other reasons. We here on cc have no way of knowing whether his application will come across, as one poster put it, as "one of the best" to ever come through his school. Or, as another poster put it (paraphrasing here), as "just another top kid from a small town." But if he wants to try for such reaches, he should. Then he should do the work to think about which match and safety schools will excite him.</p>

<p>I could be all wrong about this, but it's just what I'm thinking as I read through this thread.</p>

<p>iaquilter, it's fine that he isn't sure what he wants to do. Some kids already "know" their passion (about half of them change that passion after a term or two at college, LOL). Choosing a school which offers the full smorgasbord is a fine way to go. </p>

<p>If he doesn't know what type or atmosphere or school he wants, is this because he hasn't visited any yet - ie, visited specifically with an eye to trying it on for size? If that is the case, visits might help. OTOH, it might well be that several different atmospheres would fit him fine. My S loved Bates, where he was a Katrina visiting student, loved Tulane when he returned post-Katrina. One kid can thrive in more than one environment.</p>

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<p>and, yes, if his essay doesn't spark, there's plenty of time for that. Alu's ideas or reading the type of essay which really works. Lots of advice on how to write an essay with life. And it sounds like Mom is already a good sounding board on that. Sometimes it works for mom to be an essay reviewer; sometimes not. But the resources are out there to help.</p>

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<p>jmmom:</p>

<p>He does not need to take more advanced courses if he does not want to, of course. But iaquilter was asking about Ivies. If a student comes from a truly rural area and from a low income family, then of course, the adcoms would take that into consideration. But this is a middle-class family living close to an urban center--in other words, not rural, as in Appalachia--and with access to a community college. In that sense, he is not taking the most challenging courses available to him. Being from the Midwest will make him only a very slightly more desirable candidate than someone from the NE with a similar profile.</p>

<p>He does not have to "redo" his senior schedule. But he should strongly consider taking more advanced courses. He is fully capable of that, with his ACT score. And since he will arealdy have a Spanish cc class, adcoms will wonder why he did not take other classes at the cc.</p>

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<p>I agree with jmmom. He doesn't need to take more advanced classes than already are offered in his area. As long as he has taken full advantage of his h.s. offerings, his lack of APs, etc. won't be held against him.</p>

<p>What's important is that he pursue his EC and other interests, and it sounds like he's doing that. If he thirsts for academics more rigorous than his h.s. has, then it would be fine for him to do on-line courses and pursue the options listed in others' posts. However, if he wishes to spend his free time pursuing vocational, leadership, service, artistic, etc. interests, that is perfectly fine. What's important is that he pursues his real interests with passion and commitment, whatever those interests are. He doesn't need to do extra academics because his high school lacks the rigor the nation's best. Based on his scores, he clearly has the intellect to succeed at an Ivy. His grades indicate he has the work ethic.</p>

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<p>Ok IA, I'm a little confused, by your discussion of language. For the highest schools he will need 4 years of foreign language to be competitive, unless he comes from the most disadvantaged school - I think he will have 4 years?</p>

<p>EMT is not what we are talking about - we are speaking more of academic courses. BUT, I'm not sure that he needs to take anymore academic courses at a CC or online - if he really wants EMT certification, and can give good, passionate reasons - then that is what he should do. He sounds like a busy guy!</p>

<p>In terms of prep for college performance, and demonstrating academic rigor for the adcoms. you will get different opinions - none of us know him, and you haven't listed his courses. My daughter graduated from a high school with relatively limited course choices, and did not take any extra CC classes or online classes. When she was in high school, some of the honors classes (11th grade Eng, and chemistry, for example) took AP tests at the end, but weren't formal AP classes - and had mixed results on the tests! She had these courses - 4 years of Eng (11th grade honors, Senior AP), 4 years of social studies (9th grade history, AP Euro, APUSH, AP Econ/Gov, she only took the Econ test), 4 years of math ending with AP Calculus AB, 4 years of French (no AP), 5 years of science (Bio, CHem, Honors CHem II, AP Bio, AP Physics, she doubled up in the 11th). Basically 4X4 with one extra science and 4 years of foreign language - this was the most difficult academic load possible at her school when she was there.
I say all that to make the point that while she took the most rigorous schedule possible, she did not go beyond what her school offered - I'm not sure that is necessary if test scores and grades are solid, and the kid has other activities. His scores demonstrate that he can handle the load - our school's counselors recommend that if a student wants to major in science, or particularly engineering, they need to have calculus prior to starting college, or be prepared to take it in the summer before they start, or possibly fall a little behind - it is not the end of the world to drop down a level in classes from what one qualifies for, calculus was tough for D, despite a 5 in AB.</p>

<p>How to narrow things down? This is what we did - a copy of Princeton Review 351 Colleges, got thumbed through and dog eared. Then we visited a large school, a small school, one was rural, the other close to a city. Based on PR and those 2 visits, D decided she wanted smaller rather than larger, and suburban/rural, not urban.
She refined her list through many long walks, we would walk and she would talk. If you can't visit, then discuss (your job is sounding board and question asker). There are a couple of books that can really help - Fiske Guide to Getting into the Right College (has a great survey that will help him clarify what is and isn't important), and if he finds that has is interested in smaller schools - Harvard Schmarvard and Colleges that Change Lives - BUT if I was in your shoes, summer before senior year, can't really visit (I presume), son doesn't know what he wants, I would buy the Fiske book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140220230X/qid=1151465945/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-1759754-7171231?s=books&v=glance&n=283155%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140220230X/qid=1151465945/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-1759754-7171231?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&lt;/a>
and a PR Guide. Those books plus the Internet can help him build a good list.</p>

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<p>"He is considering taking EMT course at the community college in the fall. Would this be considered a "college" equivalent course?"</p>

<p>It would not be considered a college-equivalent course, but as long as he's pursuing a demanding academic schedule in his h.s., it would not count against him, and may even help him as long as he has a strong interest in EMT. I imagine that not many students will be applying with any EMT background, so that could make him stand out.</p>

<p>Why is he interested in EMT? Is he interested in a health career or in volunteering doing EMT?</p>

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<p>cangel:</p>

<p>Your D had heaps of APs, whether the courses were labelled as such or not. She had the exams to show for it. If I'm not mistaken the OP's S has not taken any AP.</p>

<p>And, honestly, we're not talking about a kid from an inner-city neighborhood or from Appalachia, but a kid from a suburb with access to a city of 80,000 people. He'll have plenty of good colleges to apply to. But the most selective colleges reject perfect SAT and ACT scorers by the hundreds.</p>

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<p>I don't like disagreeing with my friend, marite, :o, but I am just seeing things differently here.</p>

<p>Yes, colleges reject perfect SAT kids right and left (Stanford, I know, rejects 50% of those with 1600 SAT scores). Many (most?) of those kids also have scads of APs or AP-equivalent. So this kid will get in or not based on the combination of what he has to offer.</p>

<p>I have always seen colleges asking to see that a kid took the "most challenging program" that <em>his high school</em> has to offer. Not that he took the most challenging program that he could cobble together by looking online, at his local colleges, etc. Yes, some kids go that route and that is their strength. This kid will have other strengths.</p>

<p>If he wants to go beyond what his hs offers in his first term sr year course selection (after all, that's the only term which can influence college admissions at this point), I think that's a great idea. But if he doesn't, I think that's fine to. My objection is to the notion that he <em>must</em> compensate for what his hs did/didn't offer.</p>