Small town, middle America

Parent Cafe
41

<p>I do agree that cangel's D is not a good parallel, in terms of hs academic curriculum, to the OP son. While cangel may feel her D was "light" on AP classes (because we read of so many here on cc who've taken a dozen or more), she took quite a few.</p>

<p>My S took only four AP's (3 AP tests), but his whole academic core was Honors level if it wasn't AP. The OP's kid, I believe, had neither AP nor any "advanced" courses. Did this mean he had no Honors courses, iaquilter? Were any offered?</p>

<p>His situation definitely puts him at a less rigorous course level than many applicants for the reach schools. Still, if he took the most rigorous available to him, I think he has a <em>chance</em> at the reachier schools. A chance. He has already id'd a number of schools where he can be a shoo-in. Has he chosen them carefully is all I want to know.</p>

<p>I think his emphasis should be on finding schools he will enjoy, not on scrabbling over the next 8 weeks to re-make his curriculum. Many will jump at the chance to have him. Some strong schools would offer significant merit $$ if he is interested.</p>

<p>I just fear the OP reading this thread and thinking "OMG, we did everything wrong. Now it's too late." Not. Not the message I think is right. </p>

<p>I think I begin to repeat myself :rolleyes:. Must be the jet lag.</p>

42

<p>jmmom:</p>

<p>Of course, many colleges will jump at the chance to enrol this student! But the OP asked specifically about Ivies, which suggests to me that she and her S are interesed in them. There is no need to "remake" anything especially since the student is still open to suggestions about what college courses to take. I am just thinking that there is time to construct a different curriculum than what the school offers. </p>

<p>Our high school offers about 9 APs including a couple of language APs. But our students treat the Harvard Extension School as if it were a community college. The students who've been accepted at top schools that I know have all taken classes there.</p>

43

<p>Marite, I think it is more common in your environment for kids to know to reach out to college/cc etc for extra courses. Even here in Silicon Valley at the public schools it isn't common. Of course, there are lots of APs at most public high schools so I guess it isn't a good comparison. Anyone out there in the midwest who can put this into perspective for us? Berurah, you there?</p>

44

<p>Alu:</p>

<p>But the OP's S has already taken courses at the local cc!</p>

45

<p>The OP's son is in a small town in Iowa. There are not a lot of Ivy-applicants from Iowa small towns, so that would be a big plus for him. He'd be evaluated in that context.</p>

<p>I'm not familiar with exact stats for applicants from Iowa, but I heard that one year, only one student applied to Harvard from Mississippi. I imagine that Iowa, too, has few applicants to Ivies: Probably most of the top Iowa graduates want to stay in the Midwest -- Grinnell or other Iowa colleges or Big 10 colleges.</p>

46

<p>Northstar,</p>

<p>Two years ago I had the state by state stats giving number applied and number accepted at Harvard. The percentage accepted was actually lower for most of the smaller states. The data tends to argue against any geographic tip, and other evidence is consistent with this.</p>

47

<p>I really think your son should be looking at, via on-line at a minimum, Brown, Tufts, and Wesleyan. Surely he is a strong candidate for admission almost anywhere. He should do fine on the subject area SATs.</p>

48

<p>Hmmm.</p>

<p>There may still be a geographic tip but the pool may not be large/strong enough for the tip to actually make a difference. It is only a tip, after all. Perhaps the stronger students go to their own state schools where they can get great financial aid or attend more cheaply and be enrolled in honors programs. Or they can attend some of the excellent LACs in the Midwest. </p>

<p>Here is some state-by-state info linked by Byerly on the Harvard forum. For the class of 2009 (not included in the data linked by Byerly) students from the Midwest (different from Central and Mountains) accounted for slightly over 9% of the total incoming students. This would make for about 150 students from the Midwest. Iowa students have ranged from 16 to 28 over the 3 years the data are available.</p>

<p><a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/f...sidence_4a.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/f...sidence_4a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/f...sidence_4a.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/f...sidence_4a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/f...sidence_4a.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/f...sidence_4a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

49

<p>This is such an interesting discussion of one applicant! And I wonder if when he does finally send his application in, if the adcoms sitting in the room discussing him won't have some of the very same comments and discussions.</p>

<p>OP, you've received some excellent advice and I don't have anything to add on that front. You haven't said yet whether financial aid is a consideration - either need-based or merit - and that may well be a factor in your S's decision about where to apply. And FWIW, when you mentioned your son's three wishes, the first school that leapt to mind was Kenyon - small, down-to-earth, great English program, and I remember being really impressed with the number of opportunities for students to participate in the large number of available school productions. </p>

<p>I hope you keep us updated during this coming year - this is one of the kids I'm going to very curious about to see where he winds up.</p>

50

<p>Yes she ended up with a fair number of APs, but had no interest or desire in taking any extra classes - she didn't have the passion or advancement in one academic area like Marite's son. I guess my point was that it seems OK to stop at the most challenging curriculum your school offers - it doesn't have to be the most challenging curriculum available in the US. It is also OK to take some extra courses online or in CC if you really want to, but this young man reads as if he has several interests/commitments that he is juggling at once - he may be better served, as others have stated, to work on his essays and clarifying what he wants in a school.
The other point that I was trying to address (and didn't do well in that rambling post, I was trying to caramelize onions at the same time, and I had nobody else to help stir ;)), was her concerns about her child's preparation. Despite those AP tests, my daughter's prep was spotty, particularly in math and science and in essay writing other than DBQs or a full length research paper. AB Calculus does not necessarily make one ready to ace college calculus, even with a 5, and her science grades, while respectable B+s at Dartmouth, were low enough and the competition strong enough to make her back off of any science major.</p>

<p>In terms of prep, the experiences of many daughter's HS classmates were that in math and science there are a number of people who are going to be better prepared than someone from a much less "academic" school - this can be addressed by taking college classes less advanced than one's placement (with the understanding that this may delay graduation), in some circumstances by taking an intro class in a CC (even the summer after HS graduation), or by just accepting lower grades until the student catches up. If you are considering med school or law school, grades matter, of course. If the OP's son is set on being an MD, he has to consider the "grade thing", and whether being a big fish in a little pond might be better. He certainly has the ability as demonstrated by test scores and grades, he can compensate for gaps in prep by being conservative in selecting courses first year.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
Hmmm.</p>

<p>There may still be a geographic tip but the pool may not be large/strong enough for the tip to actually make a difference.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think Marite is right, but I would put a different spin on it, if a student academically highly competitive, then geography may be a tipping factor, if a student is in the middle to lower part of the pool, then geography ALONE probably doesn't help much. Of course as we have discussed so often, the pool at HYPS is so statistically narrow, and skewed toward the high end of all applicants, that generalizations break down.</p>

52

<p>CAngel:</p>

<p>I do not suggest that an applicant should be taking college courses on top of APs. Nor am I suggesting that students take umpteen APs. S1 did very well without taking college classes or taking as many APs as your own D. I realize S2 is the exception rather than the rule.</p>

<p>The issue for me is that this student is in a school that has no AP at all; yet, he has access to a cc, and that will show on the transcript. So, if I were an adcom, I would ask why the student did not take more advanced courses at the cc instead of just Spanish. He has the ability--the 36 ACT score. </p>

<p>I also think that the student has great chances at some truly excellent schools, including Kenyon. But again, I was responding to the OP's query about his chances at "Ivies." They are a totally different ballpark.
If he were not interested in Ivies, I would sing a totally different tune.</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
So, if I were an adcom, I would ask why the student did not take more advanced courses at the cc instead of just Spanish. He has the ability--the 36 ACT score.

[/quote]
Marite - good point. I think the question is whether his other activities are compelling enough that it's completely plausible he wouldn't want to. Some kids look past the school curriculum to more academics, other kids look past the school curriculum to other things.</p>

54

<p>Very true, Alu. Strong ECs that show commitment and excellence would certainly be impressive. Scheduling issues can be really troublesome if you also want to pursue ECs.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
"Another issue related to curriculum is degree of preparation related to peers once he gets to college (no matter which college he attends)."

[/quote]


Of course, this is a legitimate concern that many students and parents have as they plan for and head off to college. The proof is in the pudding, so he can't know until he's there. However, a few thoughts. </p>

<p>In the math/science arena, the lack of APs will largely mean that he takes (or starts out with) different level courses from those kids who are AP-heavy in these subjects. So, don't worry, he'll be up to the task in the level of coursework he takes.</p>

<p>In the humanities/languages/social sciences, I don't think AP history means much at all as to whether he is adequately prepared. Note that there is more and more discussion of whether these AP classes really are college-level work after all; whether they are just teaching to a test, etc. I personally believe it varies teacher to teacher. So, I think the adequacy of his preparation will be related more to how well his hs studies prepared him to think, write and analyze. Or how great his natural gifts are in these areas and how much he developed them over the years. </p>

<p>The common wisdom is that if a school accepts you, that school believes you are up to the task of succeeding there. I believe that common wisdom. In addition, schools have well-developed academic support services now, should anyone need them.</p>

<p>So, I wouldn't let that question mark in mom's mind limit his choice of colleges for his application list. Once accepted, he can - if he wants - visit one or more schools, sit in on classes and satisfy himself that he is ready.</p>

<p>Like Fredo, I look forward to following his application journey. His is an interesting case; he comes to the process without some of the coursework others of his caliber have had. But he brings a lot to the table, and I am rooting for him from the sidelines. As I'm sure all the posters here are.</p>

56

<p>"Mayor's Youth Commission (president next year), quiz bowl, school district advisory committee student rep and teaching 7th and 8th grade Sunday school, but it is not the 100's of hours I see from others. Most of his time is spent in theatre activities. "</p>

<p>Mayor's Youth Commission member and prez could be a very big deal IF he has had a strong leadership role in some activities or initiatives with impact. If it's basically a window dressing position,it wouldn't be impressive. If he's run with the opportunity, it could be very impressive. So, what exactly has he accomplished with the Youth Commission? Is he still doing things this summer?</p>

<p>What are his theater activities?</p>

57

<p>A note re the OP's concern about inadequate preparation: I went to a fancy prep school; my wife went to a crappy public high school in a small, depressed city, and left it after three years (and was the only kid in her class to go to college more than 50 miles from home). I felt completely prepared for college; she felt completely unprepared (poor math, poor science, poor languages, never wrote a paper longer than two pages). We attended the same super-competitive college, and we graduated with nearly identical (high) GPAs. She accomplished a lot more than I did out of the classroom. She never lost her anxiety about her poor preparation, but if anything that improved her performance, because she worked harder and had fewer preconceptions about what she should be learning.</p>

58

<p>
[quote]
iaquilter writes: Is there any hope of him getting acepted to a top school?

[/quote]
Maybe I'm the only one on this thread to think so, but I find this a bit distressing. Why such a focus on getting him into a school ranked highly by US News or some other rater?</p>

<p>How about focusing on finding a school that's right for him? A school of the size he wants, in a location he wants to live, with classes of the size he would be comfortable with, of appropriate academic rigor, the level of advising (from nonexistent to pervasive) he needs, strong in the types of outside activities he enjoys, that enrolls the types of kids he would want to be friends with? Or are these things unimportant/automatic at a "top" school?</p>

59

<p>Your son's ACT score and good essays will land him almost anywhere he wants (and will most likely get him merit scholarships).</p>

<p>His current list is too conservative (too many safeties), also too many places in the midwest. </p>

<p>I would leave these 3 on the list:
University of Chicago
Northwstern University
Washington University</p>

<p>and cut these:
Grinnell
Drake University
University of Pittsburg
Saint John's - Annapolis
Saint Olaf
Arizona State
University of Nebraska - Omaha
University of Nevraska - Lincoln
South Dakota State University
Iowa State Univesity.</p>

<p>His horizons will be wider if he goes to college oustide of midwest.
I would add Emory, Stanford, Duke - excellent schools with nice weather in different parts of the country.</p>

60

<p>mikemac - I agree with all of your points. I think some of us have mentioned some of them, but embedded within the issue of his preparation - so maybe lost. I also don't think the OP is overly focused on "top" schools. It's one part of a series of questions she's asking.</p>

<p>datadriven - I think a number of us would agree that his list is rich with safeties. As to your other points - this is <em>his</em> list, not yours. Let's wait and see whether he considers nice weather a high priority and/or wants to get out of the mid-west. I happen to agree that moving away from your home region is broadening. But that, again, would define <em>my</em> list, not necessarily someone else's.</p>